3 good questions for christians/creationists

reply to post by adjensen


1: Well the answer is obvious. You wouldn´t be one. Just look at the world and understand it. If you were born in a jewish family, you probably would grow up jewish. If you were born in a muslim family... and so on.

It is not that difficult of a concept. Just look?

2: Well, good for you then! It still seems to me like cherry picking and that doesn´t really add to the credibility of the bible as a whole.

3: I don´t really get your point here. How is that shallow? The Christian god supposedly did these things, right? Well, how do you feel about them?

And if you regard these MAJOR logical problems as "shallow", well, sorry but then you didn´t really understand them.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by adjensen

 

1: Well the answer is obvious. You wouldn´t be one. Just look at the world and understand it. If you were born in a jewish family, you probably would grow up jewish. If you were born in a muslim family... and so on.

No, the answer is not obvious.

"If you were born in a jewish family, you probably would grow up jewish" -- how does a misstatement like this allow you to come to the irrational conclusion "You wouldn't be one"?

Do you think that everyone who is born Jewish remains Jewish? Or Muslim or Christian? You apparently were born a Christian and no longer are one, so you yourself are proof that you are wrong.

There is no way to tell what a person would do, believe or become in your hypothetical situation, so it is a nonsensical question.

And if you regard these MAJOR logical problems as "shallow", well, sorry but then you didn´t really understand them.

No, I don't think that you understand them, because none of what you posted is a logical issue.

The first question is nonsensical and the other two require a Fundamentalist reading of the text -- you wish to be a Fundamentalist, so that you can take some sort of moral or ethical stand against it, and that's fine. But you cannot demand that everyone else take the same stance, nor can you claim that their position is invalid, just because it disagrees with yours, and neither can you claim that your quibbles with Judaic culture and law are somehow flaws of logic.

reply to post by Nightaudit


I am a muslim but i liked your questions and will try to answer them.

1: If you were born in a non christian
country with a different main religion,
would you still somehow end up a
christian?

i guess you mean, that what religion people follow depends a lot on where they are born. Thats true, most people will continue the traditions of their parents blindly, applies to christians too.
To answer your question, no, they would not be christian unless someone preaches them but a person can still believe in God even if he/she knew nothing about any religion.

2: How do you cope with the
obviously wrong and horrible laws
and statements in the bible? (How to
treat your slaves and that it´s ok to
beat them, women´s "right´s", that we
have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In
other words, do you pick the nice
points out of the bible and ignore the
bad ones? Or do you accept
everything in it?

Bible was from God but after death of prophets, the scribes kept on changing it.
NT also has questionable things especially by Paul and its strange of christians to disregard them and yet claim its the Word of God. Disregarding Word of God?

3: I personally would detest the god
who pulled that stunt with Abraham
and Isaac. Or the god who completely
wipes out whole ecosystems including
innocent animals, just because he
doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

Abraham was just tested, if someone gave you everything you have and asked for one back, how ungrateful it is to refuse. Muslims are commanded to remember that tradition by keeping an animal with them till they get a bit attached and then sacrifice it. Its difficult but its a reminder that everything belongs to God, including 'my' money/posessions etc. It removes over attachement and selfishness.

Ecosystems and animals naturally get destroyed all the time, say a big flood in a river would kill thousands of animals, do you blame God?, if God did anything, He saved some in the Ark. I also don't think the water covered the whole world, mostly just the area where Noah pbuh preached and got rejected except by few.

reply to post by adjensen


I kind of get the feeling that you do not want to get this.

Let me ask you a question then. Do you believe that your faith is absolutely independent of the circumstances you were brought up in? Well, pure common sense and a simple observation of the world we all live in would have to point against that.

That fact remains that your "faith" is mainly dependant on what country you were born in and most important of all what your parents believe.

I know that his probably doesn´t sit right with you, but it doesn´t change the fact that it is simply true. I mean how can it not be?

And in your mind these might be "nonsensical" issues. Well the fact remains that you didn´t understand them correctly.

How can these 3 simple question I asked, without any hostility I might add, be nonsensical?

They might be nonsensical to you, I´ll admit that. That doesn´t make them less important for me though.

You seem to react more on an emotional level here, rather than on a calm and objective one.

reply to post by logical7


Hey there logical7! I really appreciate your input here! You seem to be a calm and intelligent being, and I love to discuss these things with you.

1: I am glad that you agree! Might I add the question if that insight changes anything about how you view your own religion? Or in other words, do you consider the muslim faith to be "the" one?

2: Forgive me if I haven´t really an in-depth knowledge of the bible history. But are you implying that there were versions of it that were closer to the word of god? And is it known to historians and scholars what has been changed?

3: Again, I have to bring in the fact that it doesn´t make sense for an all-knowing god to "test" someone. God doesn´t need to know. He knows. And even if he was uncertain for whatever reason, he surely could have chosen a less cruel path to prove his point.

Same for the ecosystems. It might be true that animals die everyday, surely they do. That is part of nature.

It is a whole ´nother story to kill everything that lives (including innocent humans) because the ways of men irritate the creator.

And if we are at that topic. I do not really know what they supposedly did back then, but surely recent events in our past would have justified divine intervention as well? The nazis? Stalin? countless genocides? Where is that god today?

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by adjensen

 

I kind of get the feeling that you do not want to get this.

Let me ask you a question then. Do you believe that your faith is absolutely independent of the circumstances you were brought up in?

I believe that it can be, yes. By your claim, everyone in Saudi Arabia should be a Muslim, everyone in Israel should be Jewish and everyone in the United States should be Christian. We know that is not the case, so your conclusion that "the answer is obvious, you wouldn't be one" is irrational.

Here is my post in Wildtimes' "Varieties of ATS Religious Experience" thread: abovetopsecret.com -- if you read that, you will see why I am a Christian, and the reason is not "because I was raised one." Would I have had the same experiences if I lived in Iraq? Who knows?

How can these 3 simple question I asked, without any hostility I might add, be nonsensical?

I didn't say that all three were nonsensical, just the first one.

The other two are simply your own subjective dislike for the Hebrew Bible, because you take a Fundamentalist read of it and think that everyone else should, as well.

There is nothing "logical" about putting up your opinion against other people's, so I object to your claim that any of this presents logical problems, let alone major ones. You just don't seem to understand any form of Christianity other than the one that you've adopted in order to complain about the Bible, so I see your perspective, as regards the religion, as being shallow.

reply to post by adjensen


You REALLY do not want to understand this, do you?

Ok, here is it in the simplest terms I can put it.

I am NOT saying that everybody in saudi-arabia or in china or wherever is basically forced to accept the local faith.

And I do not know where you got that from.

All I did was point out the undisputable fact that the way people "choose" their faith is mainly dependant on the circumstances they grow up in.

Did you choose to be a christian when you were baptized before you can speak?

I mean how can you honestly try to debate this?

I will ignore further posts from you if they continue in that matter, as you obviously lack the necessary objectivity to discuss this properly.

I mean really honestly now. Who in their right mind would argue against the fact that your cultural and social upbringing has an influence on the faith you "chose"?

If YOU were right, then we would see an even distribution of beliefs all over the globe.

Do we really have to argue on that level here? It seems a little unnecessary to me, to try to make you acknowledge the obvious. And that is not what this thread is about.

reply to post by Nightaudit

I mean really honestly now. Who in their right mind would argue against the fact that your cultural and social upbringing has an influence on the faith you "chose"?

Tell me where I argued that? Of course it has an influence.

You, on the other hand, said this:

1: Well the answer is obvious. You wouldn´t be one. Just look at the world and understand it. If you were born in a jewish family, you probably would grow up jewish. If you were born in a muslim family... and so on.

You are saying that, in a hypothetical situation, where the only things that are known is that one person is in a largely Christian culture and the other person is in a largely Islamic culture, you know for a fact that the person in the Islamic culture would not be a Christian.

Like it or not, that is irrational.

reply to post by adjensen


Are you kidding me now? What is your point, then?

I am not talking about any hypothetical situation here. I am talking about the world we live in.

I said that the time and place where you were born has a major influence towards the religion you grow up and believe in.

You argued against that.

I do not follow what you´re trying to say here.

I still am open to discuss anything with you, if you like.

You kind of have to come clean on what you are trying to say.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

You are saying that, in a hypothetical situation, where the only things that are known is that one person is in a largely Christian culture and the other person is in a largely Islamic culture, you know for a fact that the person in the Islamic culture would not be a Christian.

Like it or not, that is irrational.

Do you even fully understand what you just wrote? I mean honestly now?

OK- I have my flame resistant suit on now so I will jump in.

I assume that you are asking for answers from a Christian perspective. As this is a broad spectrum, I can only answer from my little niche on the spectrum

1. Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father but by me. So from a Christian perspective, no one gets to heaven without believing in Him. But how does this account for those who have never heard about Jesus? Well, scripture also says that the attributes of God are shown through nature so that they are without excuse. So, basically, if you have heard of Jesus, you get to heaven by believing and if you have not heard God reveals Himself through nature.

more to follow..

Originally posted by Nightaudit

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

You are saying that, in a hypothetical situation, where the only things that are known is that one person is in a largely Christian culture and the other person is in a largely Islamic culture, you know for a fact that the person in the Islamic culture would not be a Christian.

Like it or not, that is irrational.

Do you even fully understand what you just wrote? I mean honestly now?

Of course I do.

Look, what was your stated question?

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

That is a hypothetical question -- I was not born in a non-Christian country, so you are asking me the answer the question, pretending that I was. The only "new" information is that I was born in a non-Christian country. As I pointed out, there is no concrete answer to that question, because there are a huge number of other influences on what a person's religion is, and those are not taken into account, because they are impossible to know.

Now, what is your stated answer?

1: Well the answer is obvious. You wouldn´t be one. Just look at the world and understand it. If you were born in a jewish family, you probably would grow up jewish. If you were born in a muslim family... and so on.

You are stating that you know for a fact that I wouldn't be a Christian, which is an irrational conclusion, because simply being born in a non-Christian country does not magically trump all other life experiences and force one to not be a Christian.

Yes, I would be less likely to be one, and statistically, probably far less likely to be one, but as your question is about an individual, not a statistical average, there is no answer, because it is a nonsensical question that presupposes an answer.

You obviously don't like that, but if you are intellectually honest, and not just arguing from emotion, you'll see it.

reply to post by adjensen


You are obviously unable to participate in this discussion as you seem to blatantly miss the points that I make.

I have never in this thread so far tied anything to individual beliefs. I was trying to point out to you that there is no real reason for an individual to choose their religion, because they were practically born with it.

So let me ask you a question again that I have asked before.

You know that most kids are baptized at a very young age, right? I do not think that you could dispute that.

Now, how many of those 2 year olds, made a conscious decision to believe in christianity?

And how would that be in other countries?

I honestly don´t know what point you are trying to make? What do you want to say here?

reply to post by micmerci


Hmm. So what if you heard of jesus, but you choose to stay a buddhist for your own reasons?

Hell?

reply to post by Nightaudit

I have never in this thread so far tied anything to individual beliefs. I was trying to point out to you that there is no real reason for an individual to choose their religion, because they were practically born with it.

Once again, you are making absolute statements that are flat out wrong.

"there is no real reason for an individual to choose their religion" -- how can you possibly believe that? Have you never heard of a religious convert? What do you think missionaries are out there doing?

You apparently didn't read the link that I provided earlier, but after years of study, thought and debate, I converted from irreligion to Deism to Methodism and finally to Roman Catholicism -- I most certainly chose my religion, and did so for reasons that I consider to be both real and valid.

You know that most kids are baptized at a very young age, right? I do not think that you could dispute that.

Now, how many of those 2 year olds, made a conscious decision to believe in christianity?

I don't believe that being baptized, at any age, makes anyone a Christian. I'm not sure that anyone believes that, apart from the Mormons (who are not Christians.)

reply to post by Nightaudit


I feel ya.
I always had very very similar questions.
I have come to my own conclusion about many of them, which is really an entire philosophy that is difficult to fully explain via an ATS post...

However, I'll just say: The Bible is extremely misunderstood and mistranslated. There is still a lot of truth within (especially the red letter text of Jesus,) but the larger picture is nearly entirely gone.

THISwebsite explains many of the concepts very well, imo. If you are truly interested in learning more, opening your mind and hearing things explained from a different perspective, I genuinely recommend you read more on that site.

THISis a great article to start with.

This is an expert from the article:

Did the resurrection really happen? Was an individual named Jesus really raised from the dead over two thousand years ago? Theologians and atheists both agree that the validity of Christianity rests on this one point alone. Many atheists argue that if Christ wasn’t raised from the dead then there’s no need for Christianity or God because it’s all myth. On the other hand, since Christians believe that Christ was raised from the dead, we too can have eternal life if we believe in him. Both of these arguments are ridiculously short-sighted and they completely divert attention away from the reality and purpose of existence.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by micmerci

 

Hmm. So what if you heard of jesus, but you choose to stay a buddhist for your own reasons?

Hell?

If you understand the teachings of both Buddha and Jesus you realize they were teaching the same thing.

It's not about which 'story' you believe, it's about how you live your life. It's about releasing your higher self from the shackles of the ego. It's about making the conscious decision to live a life of love.

At least, that's what I believe.

reply to post by adjensen


You are again debating beside the topic at hand.

And if you do not believe that baptizing someone makes you a christian then you don´t even really know that much about the faith you subscribe to.

I will now ignore your comments.

You are not worth of my time.

reply to post by eleven44


I absolutely agree with you, good Sir!

It is not about the messenger, it´s about the message.

reply to post by eleven44


Thanks for the links! Forgive me for not diving in them right now, but I really appreciate your input and your kind words!