A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by YouSir

 

I'll say we can certainly disagree on this then as we're remembering events very differently. I am assuming you lived through all that as an adult and watched it all, week by week and month by month as it developed in real time, right?

In my case, absolutely... The vast majority of Americans (per poll after poll after poll taken at the time) supported invading Afghanistan as well as Iraq. Well over 60 %.....In addition, the congressional vote was all but unanimous in support regarding the invasion of Iraq...check it out if you don't believe me.

My daughter was in Kuwait when 911 "happened". Within a month she was calling me telling me that something was up because troops and equipment...mostly equipment at that time...was arriving in large numbers. This was long before any "campaign" to invade Iraq or Afghanistan was in the public.

I have very clear and detailed memories of the time. Relatives in the military, a keen interest in the events following 911. It really didn't take a genius to figure out that the # had hit the fan and that things were changing in ways that would affect us for a long time to come.

If at that time you weren't paying attention, then shame on you.....if you were too young to understand, then you should seek solid credible information to guide your opinions rather than being a sheep and believing what you want to believe, what you are told to believe by whatever political faction you endorse.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by YouSir

 

I'll say we can certainly disagree on this then as we're remembering events very differently. I am assuming you lived through all that as an adult and watched it all, week by week and month by month as it developed in real time, right?

I can see, especially by reporting years after the events, how the impressions you describe are derived from the record. Again, I don't agree with it beyond saying that Congress did eventually sign off and it was a whole lot more Bi-Partisan than some are comfortable admitting today.

In my personal opinion, Bush was the vanguard and spearhead for that war happening. Without him. Congress wouldn't have cared or bothered with anything of the sort ...but they did give him a virtual blank check in the end, no question. For that, the guilt is a shared thing, to be sure. Shared, but not even...in my view.

Ummm...That would be true if it was.....ONLY Bush...I seem to recall Colin Powell's statements of "fact" before the UN and the loud silence coming from EVERY western Intelligence apparatus. As for Bush being the vanguard...That would mean that there is in fact a real discernable difference between the two parties in the system and that Obama, DID, dismantle the Bush policies....rather than expand on them...

Unfortunatly for you and I that rosy little version of reality never occured, so there was no Bush Vaccume in which events were singular and his alone...It would seem to me that the same puppet masters have their hands up the skirt of Obama that played Bush...Otherwise how do you explain the full 180 that Obama ran from retoric to reality?

YouSir

I'll tell ya...It takes just one thread here to get a sincere understanding for why some people I consider friends on the left get pissed. I've never been on the receiving end of the Bush-Bot defense team. It's an interesting perspective....as I'm usually 'appearing' to defend the loser simply because people seem to use his bad Presidency as some justification for Obama's worse one.

I figured on this thread, given the source of the OP material, nature of the sentiments and man it came from that absolutely earned the right to say whatever he wants and blame whomever he chooses....It might be fair to offer the fact Bush did start the wars. I mean, that's generally not a point of major contention.

Like I said...Now I'm seeing why some people I know and in one case, recently made amends with from past issues ...get so defensive. Indeed.... I think this little experience changes my own perspective just a hair on that.

We can't even tell the truth of history anymore.. RECENT history for goodness sake..without 10 versions of how it needs to be seen this way or that or a spin needs applied before we can talk any further. Well... I don't spin. I just get dizzy and sick when I try.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Frankly, listening to the left knock Bush and Co. is laughable. Obama hasn't done one thing differently than Bush as far as the two wars go.

The simple fact is he joined the military and didn't get a pure "black and white" battle...oh well.

Personally, I still support the decision on both. My beef is the way they were carried out and the fact we are still in Afganistan when the ruling locals look as bad as the Taliban.

The worse Obama does, the more the left look for little items like this one when it's generally well known that the wars are supported by the ground troops at around 3-1.

The minority group? Tough luck....

Originally posted by YouSir

 

That would mean that there is in fact a real discernable difference between the two parties in the system and that Obama, DID, dismantle the Bush policies....rather than expand on them...

Did Bush start the war all alone? When Obama becomes yet more tyrannical, will he have done it alone?

In both cases No. Then who are the helpers? The MSM for manipulating the general public - the CIA-infiltrated MSM, to be more specific. And the CIA by executing false flag attacks. And the CIA by providing false intelligence (and British Secret Service). And other Secret Societies by desiminating the lies of the CIA until there is national consensus (like bbracken said, while deploying troops in advance).

The quasi-consensus we had after 9/11 was orchestrated, and the quasi-consensus that the people are DEMANDING Obama to take our Liberties, our Due Process, and our checks and balances out of fear of terrorism/gun violence/drugs/other manufactured drama. The dramas are orchestrated by the CIA (et al.).

1993 WTC bomb explosives were provided by the FBI, proven by court records. Democrat-Republican dichotomy is a joke to keep people busy to prevent them from THINKING.

It's painfully obvious and unfortunate that many of the posters here did NOT actually read the entire letter.
If they had, half of the posts wouldn't be here.

As a combat veteran myself, who served 13 years, I feel where this guy is coming from.
Should Bush and Cheney be tried for war crimes? It's debateble, and it is a debate worth having. I think however, it is far from set in stone.

Lest ye forget, Saddam WAS a brutal dictator. He sanctioned the slaughtering of thousands of kurds (men, women and children). Modern day hitler. This may not completely justify a war in Iraq but it does put the entire affair into perspective. This dying soldier thinks his life was for nothing, but it wasn't. His sacrifice has saved hundreds of thousands of kurds.

Another aspect of problem is how we handled the war. I'm a firm believer that overwhelming oppositional force is what wins wars. Not politicians ordering generals how to fight a war. This was has dragged on FAR to long, and it should have been won easily. This has furthered the death toll, monetary cost and suffering of us ALL.

Collateral damage, as tragic as it is, is unavoidable in war. The only mitigation is to end the war as fast as possible in an attempt to overwhemlingly crush the adversary and force them into submission or face swift death. WWII's Japanense bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is one extreme example of this. As terrible, and tragic the killing of many of those innocent civilians was (and I know first hand, I have actually visited ground zero at Hiroshima) it saved hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of lives by not dragging out the war another decade or two.

My .02 cents.

reply to post by 200Plus


And now you're just a "good ol'boy" with a lot of anger pointed at an election that didn't go your way. Look in the mirror dude... you're one of many throwing blame... but taking none.

It is time for the citizens of the US to wake the hell up and open their eyes to the unmistakable truth that many already realize, and many many more reasonably minded people are beginning to see. Over and over again the US government has exhibited an outright absence of morality, and they've worked very hard to ensure that the American population remains apathetic to their actions both foreign and domestic. Through all forms of media we are fed a constant stream of propaganda intended to manipulate and control our thoughts and beliefs, like a masterful magician keeping our attention where he want its, away from the secret. Unfortunately TPTB have been extremely successful in their endeavors; not only does the majority of the population subscribe to the daily barrage of BS, but they also blindly adhere to the politician, journalist, or celebrity spewing it. Partnered with the MSM and using their old bag of tricks and deception, the government effectively sold the nation on wars in the Middle East with a few grainy satellite photos and an informant of absurd ambiguity. But more influential than any piece of evidence was our nations sense of patriotism and unquestioning trust in our leaders to bring justice to those responsible for 9/11 (though of course many of us realized it was the 'trustworthy' US government that had been responsible all along, but that's a whole other discussion).

We are all being played for fools and until you realize that there is no difference b/w Republican or Democrat, both elephant and donkey represent the special interest groups that ensured their election and NOT YOU!!! We must understand that the hostility and contempt for America in the Middle East has nothing to do with being free or prosperous and everything to do with nearly a century of military occupations and bombings. Everything to do with the countless innocent men, women, and children we've imprisoned, terrorized, or murdered over the years without any fear of repercussions. Everything to do with torture, espionage, and psychological warfare. Everything to do with the CIA pulling the strings and executing violent coups, replacing beloved leaders with dictators whom we control, weaponize, and monetarily profit from until a decade or so later when we go to war with our ally and his American supplied and trained military, all the while spending billions of dollars on government contracts to special interests in the Military Industrial Complex; also called the Pentagon

The MSM dictates what is important in the world and how you should feel about it, whether as a Republican (Fox News) or as a Democrat (MSNBC). These tactics have divided our nation and reduced us to nothing more than squabbling teens fighting over a popularity contest... American society has grown apathetic to the suffering of others and our ignorance is finally nearing its breaking point. Either we'll stand up and fight back or we'll end up like the great empires before us and destroy ourselves from within.

reply to post by 200Plus


"2) Bush left office five years ago, but the wars have only expanded. Those of you that want war crimes trials for Bush must also want them for Obama. His hands are in no way clean. Being a democrat does not mean he shares no responsibility, it just means he doesn't accept responsibility".

I'll keep my blame squarely with Cheney.
Right where it should be . It's not unlike blowing up a
building and then blaming the guy whose cleaning up the mess.
And the guy cleaning up has taken on more responsibilities than
the true culprits combined.

Originally posted by zeeon

 

As a combat veteran myself, who served 13 years, I feel where this guy is coming from.
Lest ye forget, Saddam WAS a brutal dictator.

You are no doubt an honorable person your children must be proud of. While I don't want to take that away from you, I do not wish to "Thank you for your service." Because you did not do it for the Freedom of the American people you have pledged to serve. Maybe for the Iraqis?

I do respect you for the courage and the pain you endured. Sir, your were misled then and, IMHO, your are still misguided now. We may well have the better political system, or the better mind-set, or the better whatever - but who appointed us to impose it on other nations? Do you believe it improved the lives of Americans?

Originally posted by bbracken677

Originally posted by sk8ter


Well you got me on spelling,, Never was any good at it.. But to your point.. It does not matter if the recession was worst then the crash in 29,, The fact is the Banks needed 850 billion,,, Next Bush also said the war would cost 60 billion,,, It did not... it cost over 3 trillion.,, plus hundreds of thousands of lives.. needlessly.. Kind of a big point don't you think.. Next the war was not over fast,,, Next The Banks still get Billions every month ...every month,, and they are the biggest welfare queens out there,,, Now I don't understand why you stick up for welfare for corp America.. and why you can't understand that this one guy felt he is going to die because the Country was lied to.. Congress was lied to... also I hate Obama's policies But this letter was about how Bush lied to us all...

Reading comprehension FTL. Do you see me sticking up for welfare for Corp America? Did I dispute the above items whatsoever? No..no, and no. I disputed the obviously incorrect statements you made and left the other's alone. However, I do remember Bush stating that "the war on terrorism" would last for decades and I do not remember him saying the war would cost 60 billion...While I will not dispute this since I do not know the source, I have extreme doubts about the 60 billion cost for the entire war remark (seeing as how that it would cost that much just to get assets in place to conduct the war). Can you provide a legitimate source for that?

If you really want to delve into banking, delve deeper than the superficial stuff that is provided by the media.... there is so much wrong with the banking industry that I could spend the next few hours writing about. them all.

I find it incredible that thousands of dollars worth of loans could be made based on a single deposit of 100 dollars. That is something that approaches a ponzi scheme in my opinion.

Thanks for forgiving my spelling.. and being civil, I think we both are closer then you think.. here is the link.. thinkprogress.org... I trade for a living and don't depend on the MSM media for any info... The reason we did not go though a 29 type of depression was because of something called central planning,, The FED chose to inject billions of dollars into the Banks and Corp America company's like GE Haley Davidson, and a lot of others got a huge Bail out,,, But most people don't know were still bailing out Banks every month,,, Its comes in the form of FED Accommodation also known as QE... Dems and REP will do anything to keep this ponzy going... and part of this includes this war,, to date the cost of this war is in the trillions and some of the tax payer money goes strait to military contractors. So you can see why this VET is pissed cause the whole thing was a lie,, and like everything else just follow the money

The bottom line the country never came out of the mess of 2008 The fed just keeps printing money regardless of what Dems and Reps say or do... and Obama is like Bush is just a lap dog for special interest groups.. Lobbyist spent over 2 billion in the last 2 years,, who do that money go to...

obama must be slipping in the poles, bring up 1 guy with one heart ache story that hates on bush out of 300+ million Americans to distract public view from a non successful economy..
CNN sucks in the sheep! baaaamaaa baaaamaaa

I only feel sadness reading this. The actions of so few can have such profound consequence over so many in the modern world.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by zeeon

 

As a combat veteran myself, who served 13 years, I feel where this guy is coming from.
Lest ye forget, Saddam WAS a brutal dictator.

You are no doubt an honorable person your children must be proud of. While I don't want to take that away from you, I do not wish to "Thank you for your service." Because you did not do it for the Freedom of the American people you have pledged to serve. Maybe for the Iraqis?

I do respect you for the courage and the pain you endured. Sir, your were misled then and, IMHO, your are still misguided now. We may well have the better political system, or the better mind-set, or the better whatever - but who appointed us to impose it on other nations? Do you believe it improved the lives of Americans?

I see your point of view, and acknowledge it. It's an unfortunate reality that no, my service has not improved the lives of Americans. I can admit that. I however, do not take responsibility for it, nor can I. The responsibility for those actions lies with those who issue the orders, not those who follow them. Soldiers / Saliors follow orders. It is a core tenant to the concept of Good Order and Discipline. It is up to our elected policy makers and representatives to issue the correct set of orders. This isn't "passing the buck" (as I have so many times been accused of by those who do not understand military concepts).

Without going into detail of those concepts, suffice it to say that before blaming soldiers / sailors for following misguided (or flat out wrong orders) a simple google search and some time studying military combat operations and concepts like Good Order and Discipline will fill that void (if you do not know these concepts, otherwise disregard).

As far as accusing me of joining for my own reasons and not those of serving my country - you sir are wrong.
I joined the service in 1999. My entire family has served. Mom, Dad, Brother, Sister, Grandfather and Great Grandfather. We all served our Country, and we did (and still do it) because we want to do something greater than ourselves. We wanted to a part of something that has meaning, and is fulfilling. Unfortunately, as in all things in this world, we must take the good with the bad.

My military service wasn't all fighting wars and killing people. Much of it was helping others. I was exposed to radiation during the Fukushima disaster. I was stationed onboard the USS Ronald Reagan doing humanitarian relief of the northern coast of Japan for those affected by the Earthquake / Tsunami disaster. I moved many thousands of pallets of food and loaded them onto our helicopters to be delivered to those who had lost everything. I donated many items of extra clothing and money I did not need to give to those less fortunate who had lost everything.

During that same cruise we also provided relief for the Carnival Cruise liner ("Triumph" if memory serves) that was stranded and without food. We did the same there as well.

So maybe in a way, I have benefited the American people. I have been a great representative of the American people to those affected by tragedy. I have shown foriegners that the American people CAN be benevolent, kind and caring, despite our other, less honorable actions.

Take that for what you will.

Originally posted by sk8ter

The reason we did not go though a 29 type of depression was because of something called central planning,,

You kind of missed the point I made regarding the recession/depression comparison.

It was an outright lie, fully designed to mislead all those too young to have been around during the Carter era.

And yeah, I agree with your comments following the above quote. I was trading as well during the last of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st. If I may leave a tip...now is the time to be short trading...make those sales now cause the market will be plunging soon. Save the cover buys for a couple of years from now at the latest.

My only dispute was with the misrepresentation of facts as presented in the previous post...

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I'll tell ya...It takes just one thread here to get a sincere understanding for why some people I consider friends on the left get pissed. I've never been on the receiving end of the Bush-Bot defense team. It's an interesting perspective....as I'm usually 'appearing' to defend the loser simply because people seem to use his bad Presidency as some justification for Obama's worse one.

Ummm...Wow...Brer Rabbit...how you managed to circumnavigate a defense of Bush from my response is curious to say the least. I was not defending the man OR his regime...I merely pointed out to you that there were many players in the runup to and execution of the Iraq campaign, and that blame isn't reserved for only one man when so many others shared that particular limelight.

I figured on this thread, given the source of the OP material, nature of the sentiments and man it came from that absolutely earned the right to say whatever he wants and blame whomever he chooses....It might be fair to offer the fact Bush did start the wars. I mean, that's generally not a point of major contention.

Ummm...It is usually also the nature of those who respond to an OP in a thread to either agree or disagree...I see that I neglected to bow to general consensus. That being said when you state that Bush was the sole starter of the Iraq war...you are not being factual, you are IN FACT playing a game of semantics....Surely you do recall that Bush sought BOTH Congressional approval and UN mandates for the Iraq war? Therefore the AUTHORIZATION came NOT from the White house but from CONGRESS and the UN. This was accomplished through the efforts of the State Department in the person of Colin Powell and the complicity of intelligence, among other things....remember?

Like I said...Now I'm seeing why some people I know and in one case, recently made amends with from past issues ...get so defensive. Indeed.... I think this little experience changes my own perspective just a hair on that.

We can't even tell the truth of history anymore.. RECENT history for goodness sake..without 10 versions of how it needs to be seen this way or that or a spin needs applied before we can talk any further. Well... I don't spin. I just get dizzy and sick when I try.

I suppose if you insist that your version of history is the correct one and no one but you can hold an opinion on the matter then we can see where the spin part rears it's head. We can all certainly see that according to your formula...everything that occured under Obama's watch is pinned on his lapel...and his alone...

If we conclude that everything exist's in it's vaccume, unrelated to anything else, we might just agree that, 911 was Al Qaeda, that the patriot act only relates to itself, that DHS is just another boyscout troop...pay them no mind, That NDAA only relates to terrorists, that Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran, were isolated, individual and unrelated, that TSA, Multi billion bullet buyups, fusion centers, Government manifesto's of "you might be a terrorist if's", 30,000 drones plying the friendly skies, 2,700 quasi tanks coming to a playground near you, TSA and NG roadchecks stadium checks...Ver are zee paperz...........all of it seperate and unrelated, existing in their own vaccume's...None of it continuation and planning from one side of the political coin to the other...No Sir...

YouSir

reply to post by ThinkingHuman
Ummm.........I know, that's the point I was making....if you had quoted the whole post you would have shown that that one sentence was pre and post cedant with the intent of the post and that sentence was a statement of sarcastic irony...

Yousir

reply to post by bbracken677


Ya about the Carter years, It was bad unless you had a CD earning 15 percent,,, But the Fed did the opposite of what the Fed does now.. It raised interest rates and made us feel the pain instantly. Inflation was huge as well as unemployment.. It was probably a lot worse then you described...

We are doing the opposite now. Lower interest rates. feeding the Banks huge amounts of borrowed money. Plus we changed the way we calculate unemployment. Obama is doing everything including changing the rules for Corp America.. So it seems like were doing ok,, and were really not.. If we had the same rules in place now that Carter had to use it would look a lot worse.. Both sides have sold us down the tubes,, We can't tax are way out of this and can't grow are way out of it.. We have to let the system work and stop the corp welfare so we can face the pain, and move on building a better america for us all... The Bottom line is if me and you and the same rules as the big banks, (No Mark to market accounting) The fed widow the carrying trade we would be filthy rich to.. I won't even get into how they use so much leverage to trade stocks, You can tell that the guy that is losing is life knows that we have been sold to the highest bidder

reply to post by nwtrucker

I can really understand having supported the wars when they started. Bush and his people were outstanding in getting public and overall world support. A couple exceptions...(France comes to mind for the most visible public example at the time) but for the most part, he was actually pretty successful on the coalition building side of things.

* * *

How ANYONE can support Iraq in hindsight is completely beyond my understanding. To have assumed there was more than we could know in 2003 is reasonable to me. To see more than existed TODAY seems willful to ignoring what is now known for what those in power at the time were doing and what WAS known vs. what we all assumed.

Now what gets me is that this thread is about Bush... Not Obama. It's about who started the wars. It's not about who's continuing one and starting new ones. A whole different thread could be made to cover that and literally dozens upon dozens have been.

So.. ONE thread where the focus is BUSH..AND ONLY BUSH isn't that much to ask occasionally. After all, history will record the the Commander and Chief was the one who initiated action against both Afghanistan and Iraq. Congress didn't. The President did. Congress reluctantly agreed after their usual political calculations and cold planning for advantage.

* * *

What shocks me and has me actually relating to those on the left is the fact that ON A 100% BUSH FOCUSED THREAD.....Obama STILL needs to come up in some relation to HISTORIC EVENTS he hadn't even been mentioned as name to think about in national leadership for. He was a rookie Senator with no name and no experience during all that. SO...He has nothing, in any way to do with the thread

It's the fact he gets brought into it that I think was educational to see. It's NO DIFFERENT than how Obama can't be criticized on the other myriad of threads that ARE entirely about HIM without Bush always being brought in to justify, mitigate or excuse in some way.

Well... This has been doing the precise opposite and it's just as cheap, cheesy and partisan from this side. I just hadn't seen it directed toward me before. Now that I have...I appreciate the positions and issues of the left members a bit more than I ever did for how they are aggressively argued on the slightest thing for some topics.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Ummm...........To be fair...you probably think that i've singled you out...But, to be honest...that wouldn't be the case...I just wanted to further the conversation...Or Gods forbid even have a conversation. However...now that you're all butthurt about it and just want to sling crap...then sallie forth, by all means....Have a nice day

YouSir