North Dakota trying to outlaw most abortions

Well, the extremists in the Republican party keep pushing more and more extreme measures while trying to figure out why people are abandoning the party. This is a perfect example. I wonder if part of the motive behind this isn't the well publicized population drain in the Great plains. If you can't attract taxpayers, force people to have more of them?

news.yahoo.com...

North Dakota Looks at More Abortion Restrictions

North Dakota lawmakers who approved what would be some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the U.S. are now considering outlawing all abortions.

The "personhood" measures would ban abortions by defining human life as beginning with conception. It's drawing opposition from some doctors who say it could cause problems for infertile couples seeking to use in vitro fertilization to conceive, but supporters insist that's addressed in the legislation.

The state Senate passed two personhood measures last month, and the House could vote as soon as Tuesday. One of the bills would make the proposal a state law and another is a resolution that would put the definition into the state constitution, if passed by voters.

North Dakota is one of several states with Republican-controlled Legislatures and GOP governors that is looking at abortion restrictions, but the state is could go further than any other in challenging the U.S. Supreme Court's 1973 decision that legalized abortion.

Last week, the Legislature sent Gov. Jack Dalrymple what would be two of the most restrictive abortion laws in the U.S., banning abortions as early as six weeks in a pregnancy and on the basis of genetic defects such as Down syndrome. North Dakota also would be the first to adopt a personhood law if that measure passes. Abortion-rights activists have vowed to fight the measures in court.

for the love of the monkey gods how can people like this exist equating an abortion to capital punishment is madness.people on this site liberal and conservative seem to take most supreme court rulings as the law of the land yet these horrible bastards want to make it illegal to get an abortion in case of rape? roe vs wade is the law of the land if you dont frigging like it challenge it in court and get the supreme court to change its mind(hint it wont) and what is with the growing number of women trying to control other women's bodies glad i live one state over from this idiots and bible thumpers

at above commenter can i get a link to that image im a republican but even this pisses me the frak off and figured this could help me in my endevors to educate people on how this kind of crap cant be tolerated

Until you can sit through some education and pictures and video of an abortion and 'see'with your own eyes, the whole human form sucked out through the vacuum tubes or cut out of the womb to die in a bucket you are all hypocrites.

But if you have seen them and still think the millions of babies killed every year in the name of 'rights' is ok then your not a hypocrite...just a very sick person.


...and if your mother had the same choices now, you might not be here!

reply to post by pacifier2012


well for your info my birth mother tired to abort me on her own with a syringe of heroine while she was in labor with me so you would think id be against abortions but im not because its not my body and im a very firm beliver in following the consitution which with supreme court rulings roe vs wade is the law of the land if you dont like it try to change it but trying to do end runs around the supreme court is nonsense and a black mark on the republican party.

you dont like abortions don't frigging have one just like the conservative mantra if you dont want a gun dont buy one but don't affect my ability to legally have one looks a bit different from that point of view huh?

Rape is a horrible crime. It is absolutely devastating," Sitte said. "But do we believe in capital punishment for those children?

quote from the article to equate abortion(a choice and a right of women) with capital punishment (a PUNISHMENT) just shows how insane some of these people are made worse so that this legislation is proposed by a woman who would presume to limit the rights of her own gender

Originally posted by pacifier2012
Until you can sit through some education and pictures and video of an abortion and 'see'with your own eyes, the whole human form sucked out through the vacuum tubes or cut out of the womb to die in a bucket you are all hypocrites.

But if you have seen them and still think the millions of babies killed every year in the name of 'rights' is ok then your not a hypocrite...just a very sick person.


...and if your mother had the same choices now, you might not be here!

edit on 19-3-2013 by pacifier2012 because: (no reason given)

I've seen those obnoxious pro-life pictures and they do nothing for me. You know why? Because a fetus is not a baby, its not a human, its not a person. My mother had the choice of an abortion and she chose to keep me. If she didn't I would never know I never existed so its pointless to bring that up. Take your melodramatics elsewhere. Thanks.

Reply to post by acmpnsfal

Why was Scott Peterson charged and convicted on a double murder when he killed his pregnant wife? Nonhuman, right?


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


because she was 7 months pregnant and regarless of abortion statutes i cant think of one state that would perform an abortion that late into the term of the child as most states will not do an abortion past 24 weeks

www.guttmacher.org... but nice try also he was charged with first degee murder for her and 2nd degree murder for the child

Right, so if Dakota wants to extend legal coverage to the point of conception the problem is..?

Or is there some magic number that one can expect legal coverage and to transition from nonhuman to human?


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


en.wikipedia.org... this is the problem with the supreme court ruling on the matter and it did set the stage for what under federal guidelines constitutes a legal abortion in general most states will not do abortions past 24 weeks and if memory serves me the max is somewhere around 5 months max.if they want to institute a law like this they need to get a new ruling on the matter of abortion they have to take it before the supreme court or in extreme example have a constitutional convention on the matter to add an amendment to the constitution forbidding abortions


again i say if you dont want an abortion dont have one just like me and other republicans say if you dont want a gun don't buy one. why do people think they have the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies? i ask any one posting in this forum to rember how they have posted on ats were you for gun control? or against it were you for the large Sada ban and cigarette taxes or against them? if you answered no to these questions ask your self if you dont want the government telling you what you can put in your body/and or hands(guns) why the frak do you think you can tell women what to do with theirs

Reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

Haha. Trick question. In the US there is the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, so you can catch a murder charge for killing any fetus, regardless of age. Not really sure why you're trying to find and fit a number, other than show you're willing to make things up.

So clearly the unborn can be afforded legal protection, so the big question why is a mother allowed to terminate the life of her own unborn, but I can't punch them in the stomach and effectively do the same thing (maybe catch an assault charge for the mom).

I really don't care if people want to abort their kids, I just believe the law needs to be consistent in how it views an object within the framework of law and it seems that the nonhuman argument ain't true.


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Originally posted by GreenGlassDoor
Reply to post by acmpnsfal

 

Why was Scott Peterson charged and convicted on a double murder when he killed his pregnant wife? Nonhuman, right?

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Uhhh, Laci Peterson was eight months pregnant, at that time the baby has a good chance of surviving outside the womb, thats why he was charged with a double murder. I think it goes without saying I was referring the the point before 6 months during the period when the baby cannot survive on its own and abortions are legal.

reply to post by GreenGlassDoor

en.wikipedia.org...

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism.

if you cant differentiate between a legal abortion performed by a doctor (as the law stands now) and a murder of a pregnant woman and her own child i feel sorry for you

The legislation was both hailed and vilified by various legal observers who interpreted the measure as a step toward granting legal personhood to human fetuses, even though the bill explicitly contained a provision excepting abortion, stating that the bill would not "be construed to permit the prosecution" "of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf", "of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child" or "of any woman with respect to her unborn child."

so as it doesn't relate to abortion and provides explicted exception for abortions do you wanna try again or do u just wanna admit you wanna regulate the ability of a woman to decide what to do with her own body?

en.wikipedia.org... as for my imaginary number it vaires by state which i allready stated......but the federal guideline of abortion being legal limits what they can or can not make illegal

One aspect of the legal abortion regime now in place has been determining when the fetus is "viable" outside the womb as a measure of when the "life" of the fetus is its own (and therefore subject to being protected by the state). In the majority opinion delivered by the court in Roe v. Wade, viability was defined as "potentially able to live outside the woman's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." When the court ruled in 1973, the then-current medical technology suggested that viability could occur as early as 24 weeks. Advances over the past three decades have allowed fetuses that are a few weeks less than 24 weeks old to survive outside the woman's womb. These scientific achievements, while life-saving for premature babies, have made the determination of being "viable" somewhat more complicated. The youngest child to survive a premature birth in the United States was a girl born at the Baptist Hospital of Miami in 2006 at 21 weeks and 6 days' gestational age.[5]

you were saying?

The bill contained the alternate title of Laci and Conner's Law after the California mother (Laci Peterson) and fetus (Conner Peterson) whose deaths were widely publicized during the later stages of the congressional debate on the bill in 2003 and 2004. (see Scott Peterson and Laci Peterson). Scott Peterson was convicted of double homicide under California's fetal homicide law.

as you wanted to bring up lacy peterson that fell under california law not federal law


and the full text of the law for the benefit of other members

Sec. 1841. Protection of unborn children (a) (1) Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to, a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section. (2) (A) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, the punishment for that separate offense is the same as the punishment provided under Federal law for that conduct had that injury or death occurred to the unborn child’s mother. (B) An offense under this section does not require proof that— (i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or (ii) the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child. (C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child, that person shall instead of being punished under subparagraph (A), be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113 of this title for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being. (D) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the death penalty shall not be imposed for an offense under this section. (b) The provisions referred to in subsection (a) are the following: (1) Sections 36, 37, 43, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 229, 242, 245, 247, 248, 351, 831, 844 (d), (f), (h)(1), and (i), 924 (j), 930, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1116, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1153 (a), 1201 (a), 1203, 1365 (a), 1501, 1503, 1505, 1512, 1513, 1751, 1864, 1951, 1952 (a)(1)(B), (a)(2)(B), and (a)(3)(B), 1958, 1959, 1992, 2113, 2114, 2116, 2118, 2119, 2191, 2231, 2241 (a), 2245, 2261, 2261A, 2280, 2281, 2332, 2332a, 2332b, 2340A, and 2441 of this title. (2) Section 408(e) of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 848 (e)). (3) Section 202 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2283). (c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution— (1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law; (2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or (3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child. (d) As used in this section, the term “unborn child” means a child in utero, and the term “child in utero” or “child, who is in utero” means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.

sorry for long quote but some how i dont think that wiki would care about me quotign such a long quote but if the mods deem this post needs to be edited i ask them to leave the following out if you want to see the full text of the law go to the link above

Reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

There is no difference. Something is turned from alive to dead, because "murder" is attached to it that something is legally a person (unless we call it an abortion, which magically makes it not).

How can a person have two legal statuses of protected and unprotected simultaneously? Maybe they should only just be 3/5 a person? That would be a good compromise.


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


well federal law disagrees with you.
i would ask that you not use your personal opinion to spread ignorance of this matter as well as the specific California law you cited like it or not roe v wade still stands abortion is legal and you will be punished for murder if you kill a pregnant woman and her child you may find it confusing but the law is the law and you have to live with that weather or not you like it as as it stands abortion is legal and constitutional in the united states


and as we have realized the fallacy of the 3/4ths compromise regarding to slaves back in the 1800s we have moved past such ignorant thought processes doctors can "murder" (as you put it) babies but Donkey(you know what i mean) husbands cant kill their pregnant wives i don't see a problem with this and i cant fathom why you would think such ignorant things unless you try to take your logic from musty old religious texts that do nothing but divide us as species and serve to further subjugate the females of America to the level of things to get pregnant and to be seen and not heard like they were in the dark days. let me guess your one of those sick individuals who thinks rape victims and victims of incest are suposed to carry their violators children to term?

Reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

Of course Federal law disagrees with me, and there is no personal opinion there.

So if Dakota wants to make the law consistent and uniformly interpret a fetus as a person, what's the big deal?


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


federal laws on abortion trump state laws on abortion thats kind of my point......either way the supreme court will strike down this unconstitutional law just like Illinois and DC's hand gun bans

and i have a problem because your willfully trying to spread ignorace as the orginal law you cited in your first poist in this thread asked the question of why was scot peterson charged with murder for the death of his wife and unborn child as compared to a legitimate and legal abortion has the exception that those who perform abortions will not be charged with killing an unborn child i still dont see why you cant fathom how wrong exactly you are and more so the fact that you cant see how this conficts with federal law and places an unfair burden on women who want to have an abortion astounds me

North Dakota lawmakers are considering several bills this session that would restrict abortion. Dahl said that the legislation would ultimately impact medical care to women and families and allow no exceptions for rape or incest. "A woman who has been sexually assaulted will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of the nature of her assault," she said.

this is why i have a problem with it


it would be interesting to see if your view changed if your wife/gf was raped and impregnated with the rapists baby that you then legally would be required to raise and take care of for the entirely of its life tell its 18 so unless your willing to happily raise the baby of the person who raped the person you may or may not be involved with i would appreciate it if you would stop trying to restrict the rights of women to decide what to do with their own bodies

Reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

What Federal laws are going to trump what state laws?

You do understand how federalism works, right?


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reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


well again weather you like it or not abortion is legal and is the law of the land and laws outlawing abortion or unreasonably restricting them are illegal and unconstitutional why do you want unwanted children to be brought into this world? why do you want women who were raped to have to raise the baby of their rapists often but not always leading to rapists getting custody or visitation rights? why are you for women who were molested by family members having to carry a baby to term that constantly reminds them of the traumatic event that happend to them? why do you want children in this world that cant be taken care of and cared for brought into this world? and for the love of Hanuman(the monkey gods) why cant you see why your ignorance is so astounding it makes my head hurt?you don't like people getting abortions petition the states to call a constitutional convention to make abortion illegal. or repeal roe vs wade. why do you think you know better then women what to do with their own bodies?

wiki.answers.com... supreme court agrees with me and thats good enough for me

as well as idahos fetal pain bill being struck down the caselaw follows my opinion as well

blog.christianitytoday.com...

A U.S. district judge has overturned Idaho's so-called "fetal pain" law, a ban on abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Citing Roe v. Wade, Judge B. Lynn Winmill wrote that "the state may not rely on its interest in the potential life of the fetus to place a substantial obstacle to abortion before viability in women's paths." The so-called "fetal-pain" law attempts to stop abortions after 20 weeks, the point at which a fetus reportedly begins to feel pain. Lawyers for plaintiff Jennie Linn McCormack argued that the law unjustly punishes women.

so dont try to change my opinion try to change the supreme courts

www.pregnantpause.org... list of abortion laws by country even afganistant supports abortion of a child that threatens the life of the mother and they are a Muslim theocracy

Botswana supports abortion for children in almost all cases



egypt has legal abortions with some restrictions.....husband must consent

NORTH FRIGGING KOREA HAS LEGAL ABORTIONS IN all cases

Pakistan has legal abortions in case of rape incest and a few other conditions

even kuwaite will give abortions if the husband consents

jorden has abortions legalized in some cases

if third world countries despots and theocracies can condone abortion in the case of rape why are you so opposed to women that were raped from being able to abort their rapist children....

www.guttmacher.org...
www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org...
chartsbin.com...
www.huffingtonpost.com... and just like gun control making it illegal only makes it happen more and move it underground and leads to a black market and a setting where women will do their own abortions to circumvent the law prohibition does not solve anything but driving people to do things that once were legal to do illegal things

www.nytimes.com...
www.washingtonpost.com...
www.pewforum.org...