My new space exploration initiative, we can do it!

Ok, so...i was partaking in thread about the spaceX dragon capsule and its recent "near miss" which was started by Canucks555

In it i posted some updates and if you read you will see how this thought evolved into the thread you are reading now.

Here are some relavent links (because some you probly wont read it....)
Any way...this first on is in regards to the possibility of a manned mission to mars.
This monumental mission is being undertaken and funded by Dennis Tito who was the first ever "space tourist" and the founder of
The Inspiration Mars Foundation.

Today, March 3rd is the day they will be oficially presenting this idea to the international community at the
2013 IEEE Aerospace Conference being held in Big Sky, Montana from today until the 9th.

Im not sure exactly how events will play but from the looks of it this guy is 100% serious, saying that he will even foot the bill for the entire venture..."how much will it cost" you ask?

How much will it cost? Who knows. They have not settled on a mission architecture yet - but this will probably be in the hundreds of millions/half billion dollar range by the time it is all figured out. Again, unlike all the other space projects that have sprouted of late, Tito is a very wealthy man and is prepared to write some rather large checks. That fact alone moves this idea from giggle factor to the verge of credibility. Tito can afford to spend significant sums to figure this out. But, given the calendar aspects of his mission, he does not have time on his side.

So lets say money isnt an issue...the time and place are set, but there are things still to be concidered, but thats not for me to say (unless of i get to go).

So what my point? What is this "initiative" i speak of?
Well in contradiction to the t&c of this site in regards to

15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

... i must tread as lightly as possible without compromising my intentions.
But just because i cannot petition you join in my endevours (as will be breifly explained) does not mean that i do not need your help.

You see, in the process of participation of that thread an idea popped into my head as it was pointed out that so
much of our past/current endevours in space are wasted, as stated in the Reuters article i had linked to.

Dragon is the only station freighter that makes return trips, a critical service that was lost after the U.S. shuttle program ended in 2011. Cargo ships flown by Russia, Europe and Japan incinerate in the atmosphere after leaving the station

I thought it was so wasteful in light of our current endevours both in space exploration and economic survival.
And that is where my "initiative" comes in, and why i need your help.

Given that i do not have that the personal or business or government connections to create such influence as i desire i turn to you for 2 things...
1) information on how and who i can contact as well as
2)additional ideas in reference to forming some type of "coalition" of like minded people in order to end this waste and utilize our resources better.

Imagine if over the past 50/60 years we have been allowing these "cargo" vessels to burn up and crash back on earth we had kept them in space and utilized them for future missions. What would the space industry be today if we had built upon those vessels in a similar fashion that we did/do with the space station.

We could already have ships otbiting other planets and moons, possibly manned bases in orbit the size of small cities, habitations on the moon or in orbit with a great view of home....

An entirely different industry with pilots for shuttles between bases and habitats and research stations and mining platforms and all the people filling the jobs to make it happen.

So let's start today!
Lets get this idea and others like it (maybe yours)out to the people who can make it happen!

Well thats all really, i look forward to hearing your input and ideas on the matter and thank all in advance for any assistance you lend along the way.



Just add, i have just sent an email to the inspiration mars foundation outlining this idea and how succesfull it would be with international cooperation. Concidering sending to the staff/founders/members of the foundation as i have located the public contact information for them as well...

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
Cargo ships flown by Russia, Europe and Japan incinerate in the atmosphere after leaving the station

Imagine if over the past 50/60 years we have been allowing these "cargo" vessels to burn up and crash back on earth we had kept them in space and utilized them for future missions.

Garbage.
Like any household, the ISS also generates a lot of garbage.
Each time they send up a cargo ship with new supplies, the empty vessel is then filled with garbage and allowed to burn up on reentry (over the south pacific I believe). Its garbage disposal.

So... if they kept them in space... what exactly was your plan with these floating dumpsters (that contain almost no fuel for the rockets)?

reply to post by alfa1


That could be accomodated for, currently all the junk from the iss comes back on these new dragon capsules which are re-entry vehicles and do not burn up.
From the reuters article:

Once the capsule is unloaded, the crew will begin refilling it with 3,000 pounds (1,361 kg) of unneeded and broken equipment and science samples for analysis on Earth.

If we already had a platform out there they could use as a sort of trash can till it was full, ans still be able to send research/parts/people back to the surface?

True fuel would be need but it sure would be cheaper to send fuel to refuel several vessels already there rather than srnding up one vessel with enough fuel for mission parameters.

Just thinking out loud, you make a great point. Thanks

reply to post by RadicalRebel


The unmanned cargo ships are not designed for people to live in. They lack the required facilities. They also wouldn't have the ability to refuel in orbit, nor would their thrusters have enough power to get them out of Earth orbit.
They are designed to be in space for a limited amount of time and then be disposed of, along with all the garbage inside them. It sounds wasteful, but that's all you can do with them after unfortunately.

There are proposals for evolved designs of ESA's ATV spacecraft and JAXA's HTV spacecraft. I would recommend checking those out.

reply to post by jra


Yes im aware they are not equiped with those things. The idea is, if they are left there then we can go back and use them later instead of having to waste fuel and money just so they can burn up and become trash.

Once they are there we can equip them how ever we see fit, only needing to launch the parts and tools
needed. Can you imagine how advanced our space program could be if we had been doing that the whole time?

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
Once they are there we can equip them how ever we see fit, only needing to launch the parts and tools
needed. Can you imagine how advanced our space program could be if we had been doing that the whole time?

How do you equip them in orbit? We're talking a significant overhaul of adding new systems and components to make them into habitable spacecrafts. And doing all this in orbit. It could require hundreds of man-hours (perhaps even thousands), to modify and become incredibly expensive and complicated. Assuming it's even possible to modify them.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if your idea was possible, but I just don't see it being doable unfortunately.

reply to post by RadicalRebel


Hey guys, go to buildtheenterprise.org its the most amazing space initiative in human history

Originally posted by jra

How do you equip them in orbit? We're talking a significant overhaul of adding new systems and components to make them into habitable spacecrafts. And doing all this in orbit. It could require hundreds of man-hours (perhaps even thousands), to modify and become incredibly expensive and complicated. Assuming it's even possible to modify them.

I dont know how to equip them in orbit, but that doesnt mean it cant be done.
It doesnt even need to be significant...at first. Im thinking it could be started by connecting them and creating more working space.
Of course it would take time and money and effort, but realistically, those are the easiest hurdles to overcome.
Lets say this idea gets to the right people, we could begin designing on the ground. Manufacturing new shapes and models to leave up there that wouldnt need to be majorly overhauled, just linked together, like the ISS.

They have pretty much the basic nessecities any ways, life support could be improved upon in subsequent additions, sending a few thrusters up as an afterthough would be less payload.

Then once we have a few platforms to work from we could start on the larger projects, bigger habitats, new "construction methods" and from there the stars are well within our grasp.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if your idea was possible, but I just don't see it being doable unfortunately.

I think we can do anything we put our minds to, and this idea seems to me like it should have been the logical progression, so what if at first we only manage to float around on some tin cans...you have to start somewhere!

reply to post by WilliamArcher


BuildtheEnterprise.org

A truly great endevour i agree and i would love to see something like that in my lifetime but it doesnt address a number of issues.

I do not think the technology required to create such a craft exists yet. Yes the LENR "could be a great step forward, and creating gravity in such a manner works in "thoery" but how do you put all those parts together?

How dow we get such large parts up there, im pretty sure it wouldnt be able to launch from the ground if assembled on earth. Then how do we put it together in space? Nuts and bolts? Welding in a vacuum? Would some strong adhesive work?
What if they get the engines in place and they tear away from the ship? How does this "wheel" work? Would it create gravity for the entire ship?
Im not trying to knock the idea, i think the person(s) who are initiating this are onto something along the same lines as what i proposed, except that i am trying to build the infrastructure and advance the technology that will make ideas like that possible.

I thank you kindly for your input as i believe i have found a potential ally in my endevours!

reply to post by RadicalRebel


Here are some answers to some of your questions:

Wielding In A Vacuum?

The answer is: yes. Just fine. Here are some links:

Cold Wielding

Electron Beam Wielding

Wielding In Space

As for the "gravity machine working in theory", actually it's not theory, but fact:

Artificial gravity using Centrifugal Force has been known for a very long time.
No, this would not produce gravity through out the ship, but only on the inside rim of the circle.

As for the engines ripping off, if you look at the site map, those nacelles are listed as "Aux Engines.". The main engine is listed in the "Primary Hull" section.
Would they rip off? I imagine that the "Aux Engines" would have the engineering so that the support struts going to them would be able to handle the stress put on them. They only need to over come mass and inertia to work.

Getting all the parts up is a big deal. But then just about any serious idea of interplanetary or even interstellar travel involves the ship being built into space. This is much easier in that if you build it here on Earth, you have to design the ship to travel up from our gravity well and through our atmosphere.........and to also travel into space.

Any large ships should be built out in space for the actual travel. With smaller craft attached for landings, etc.

reply to post by eriktheawful


Thanks for those wielding links! Didnt know about that stuff.

I did understand about centrifigal forces though, still one of my favorite carnival rides

I just dont think it has any practical application in that specific design, it would cause some serious engineering headaches and could be a drain on resources as well.
What part of the ship would be effected? The outer portions, somewhere in the interior, how do you get in/out to reach different sections, would you need to start and stop it evrytime one of the 1000 people had to get to a different section?
Would each section need its own internal power source to prevent wiring issues? Could the motion itself create a (static/electromagnetic) power supply?
i can see the benifits but how far along in the tech are we in application?

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

Thanks for those wielding links! Didnt know about that stuff.

I did understand about centrifigal forces though, still one of my favorite carnival rides

I just dont think it has any practical application in that specific design, it would cause some serious engineering headaches and could be a drain on resources as well.
What part of the ship would be effected? The outer portions, somewhere in the interior, how do you get in/out to reach different sections, would you need to start and stop it evrytime one of the 1000 people had to get to a different section?
Would each section need its own internal power source to prevent wiring issues? Could the motion itself create a (static/electromagnetic) power supply?
i can see the benifits but how far along in the tech are we in application?

The way it works is not that hard of a concept. Remember the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey ? Here we have the space station, and in this case the entire structure rotated:


In the movie, you see the space craft that is carrying Dr. Heywood Floyd to it. The craft matches rotation with the bay doors in the center and the proceeds forward. Later, we see him walking around inside the space station, and using a video phone to talk to his son and out the window you can see space and the Earth rotating.

On the space craft, Discovery they also had a rotation ring, where the crew could exercise, and were the "suspended animation" pods were kept:


Gravity is a necessary evil for us humans. Without, our bones begin to break down, so long voyages or times in space would require something like this.

The engineering part is not that hard actually. The way you enter or leave this area is not at the edges, but at the center. At the center you are in free fall, as you move towards the edge, you would begin to feel the force of the artificial gravity. You would use something like ladder rungs to pull yourself to it, then climb down as the force increases.

We can work and live in free fall, but for long voyages, you MUST have something that will provide gravity so that our bones do not fall apart. We would not need to be in it 24/7. Just during certain periods like when we sleep, exercise, etc. The rest of the ship can be in free fall, as we know that we can do work and run space craft in free fall just fine. We just need some gravity somewhere for the rest of the time.

Considering the size of the ring they are talking about on the "real life" Enterprise there would be more than enough room for people, especially if you sectioned it off.

As for connections for things like power, control, etc, etc, we already do this, and have since before WW2.

It's called "Slip Rings"
Did you ever wonder how a Radar antenna works? It's spinning, yet the RF energy we send out and receive is able to get up and out the antenna and back down to the receiver. This is also how motors and generators work: a slip ring assembly.
Things like fluids and gasses are bit hard to do, but again, not impossible, plus as you pointed out, some of those sections would have their own contained systems.

The only REAL technical challenge that I see with this ship that I see (besides the size, it's quite big), is the cold fusion that they are talking about. That is not something that is available right now, but is becoming more of a reality as time goes by.

But everything else? We really do have the engineering and technical know how to make it.