"Russia moves to enact anti-gay law nationwide"

reply to post by DarthOej

“How does anyone getting married affect you in any way? Whether they be straight, gay, transgender, or whatever. It does not. Same with what people wear or do in public”

So, your belief is… As long as is doesn’t affect you, they can engage in any act so long as they’re not harming any one. Yes indeed let us look the other way and pretend all it well with our morals in society.

Nice to see you don’t have any problems with guys walking around with their underwear completely visible for the public to see. I assume half naked or fully naked men walking around in San Francisco promoting gay pride is cool too! Buddy I’m glad your reasoning is not the de-facto standard.

Let me give you some food for thought. “For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects the freedom of others.” Nelson Mandela

You are free to do as you please up until your rights infringes upon others.

As for gay marriage… I don’t have a problem with that.

Originally posted by Beowolfs
reply to post by DarthOej

 

So, your belief is… As long as is doesn’t affect you, they can engage in any act so long as they’re not harming any one. Yes indeed let us look the other way and pretend all it well with our morals in society.

Yes.

Who gets to define morals in our society?

Nice to see you don’t have any problems with guys walking around with their underwear completely visible for the public to see. I assume half naked or fully naked men walking around in San Francisco promoting gay pride is cool too! Buddy I’m glad your reasoning is not the de-facto standard. [quote]



I actually think sagging is an ugly style. I laugh when I see people walking around, having to waddle because they can't move their legs properly. It looks like they may have pooped in their pants. One guy in his 20's had SpongeBob boxer shorts on. As for naked people, I do not see what is so obscene or offensive about the human body. As long as they are not acting in an unwanted sexual fashion towards other people, why not let them express themselves. There are muscles in my eyes that allow me to direct my vision away from things that I do not want to see. If I see something I do not like, that is the route I usually take. You are glad that allowing people to do as the wish without harming others in not the standard? What type of world do you want to live in?

Let me give you some food for thought. “For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects the freedom of others.” Nelson Mandela

You are free to do as you please up until your rights infringes upon others.

As for gay marriage… I don’t have a problem with that.

Agreed

edit on 23-1-2013 by DarthOej because: (no reason given)

Apologies for the messed up quoting, I cant figure out how to fix it.

reply to post by DarthOej


No apologies necessary for the quote prob. : )

I agree, we can always look the other way. But honestly, we shouldn’t have to. The concern becomes predominant when our children accompany us and we are to explain the issue at hand.

I do not see what is so obscene or offensive about the human body. As long as they are not acting in an unwanted sexual fashion towards other people, why not let them express themselves.

I never said nor do I believe a human body is offensive or obscene. In fact, I feel some are to be admired. A testimony to this is the amount of magnificent sculptures and paintings created through the ages. But there is a place and time for everything. Walking around the city in the buff is not what I consider artful or proper. And I am willing to bet that most people would agree with me, hence, why people get offended.

As for the type of world I want to live in…. I would like for people to respect each other and become more responsible individuals.

Well....I haven't read everything yet and this is sort of old but I know one thing. I know alot of Russians and simply making a gay joke CAN actually getten you beaten up, and the cops will just laugh it off. Honest. I'm not gay but this is how it is. Just saying.

Originally posted by chrismarco
This is a real head scratcher...as posted on Yahoo news Russia is making it more difficult for gay individuals to either come out or show their affection in public...

‌Link

MOSCOW - Kissing his boyfriend during a protest in front of Russia's parliament earned Pavel Samburov 30 hours of detention and the equivalent of a $16 fine on a charge of "hooliganism." But if a bill that comes up for a first vote later this month becomes law, such a public kiss could be defined as illegal "homosexual propaganda" and bring a fine of up to $16,000.

Levada polls conducted last year show that almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality "morally unacceptable and worth condemning." About half are against gay rallies and same-sex marriage; almost a third think homosexuality is the result of "a sickness or a psychological trauma," the Levada surveys show.

In the grand scheme of things we are not that advanced as a country when you look at when we started to accept homosexuality into the mainstream..I'm thinking maybe ten years ago that it really started to be accepted in the workplace and as far as the treatment of blacks in America that has picked up over the last thirty years..that's not including the start of the black movment but what I percieve to be when black americans started to get some movment around earning decent wages in this country...that is not fact but my opinion being 40 someting...but back to the main topic at hand...can't imagine getting fined for kissing someone I love or otherwise...

Pity Russia won't pass a right to arms amendment to their constitution, within a year homosexual, atheists and other degenerates would have their wish fulfilled as honest, decent people leave America by the millions.

Hi guys, this is my first post. I have been an observer of ATS for many, many years. This subject is highly controversial for many, and those who support the LGBT movement may have a field day with me on this, but I merely want to try and highlight a few things about Russia and Russians and the "West".

I am a British expat living in Saint Petersburg, Russia. This city was where it all really started gathering momentum. I see here that many people do not fully understand the laws here in Russia, and also the mentality. Russia is a very traditional country where those traditional values we seem to have lost or forgotten in the "West". People here do NOT want their children exposed to homosexuality. The fact of the matter is that over 75% of Russians support this. And no, Russia and Russians are not backwards people. They are among the most intelligent people I have ever had the pleasure to have lived and worked with.

I am fortunate enough to be in a job that allows me to meet scores of different people every week to discuss a vast array of subjects. Not surprisingly, subjects like the anti-gay propaganda bill, Pussy Riot and Edward Snowden have been hot topics. From teenagers to CEO's, government officials, regular university students, religious and non-religious groups, taxi drivers, bartenders, expats - they all understand exactly what this law means. Many of them are NOT anti-gay but do support this law. Being gay is NOT illegal in Russia. In 1993 it was decriminalised. There are many gay bars and clubs. Hell, I even had the chance to speak with a few gays that don't feel threatened by the law at all. In my three years here, I have met only 7 people that oppose this, and guess what? Three of them are Americans, two of which are bisexual and very good friends of mine, and one British girl who is also bisexual and a good friend of mine too. We have stars speaking out against this law misquoting it as an anti-homosexual law which is just plain incorrect. Yes, we can say it can be interpreted in many ways, but so can a multitude of laws against privacy that have been introduced in the UK, USA, Europe. What about anti-terror laws? WHy is it that the world is clearly Russophobic? What is worse? Lying to the people about war, fear-mongering their people, spending the peoples' money to invade other countries for resources and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children, planing to continue doing so with complete disregard for the people all via a very cloak and dagger and secretive corrupt system designed only to help those in power.... or passing a law that is supported by a huge majority of the population via a corrupt governmental system that has only restricted the exposure of what it regards is too sensitive for young kiddies to truly comprehend? What about other countries that actually HAVE anti-homosexual laws, you know, the laws that will impose harm on you for being gay.

Don't you think we have been going around imposing our ideals on the world for too long? What the f*** has it got to do with us, trying to dictate which laws a country should adopt? Most of the people shouting about this have no idea what Russia is like. Coming here for holiday is not the same as living here. Most Russians will tell you they are against homosexuality but accept that two people can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes as long as it is not exposed to their children or interferes with their lives. Yes, they don't want to tolerate gay parades. Yes, they don't want to see same-sex couples kissing or cavorting in public in front of them or their kids, but tell me who here really and truly does want that in front of their young kids? The same with heteros. Why should people be forced or attacked by the rest of the world to accept something they disagree with? What about the comments made recently by the Australian PM with regards to immigration and that Australia will not tolerate people going their and not conforming to their way of life?

Russians truly believe Russia is for Russians, first and foremost. And I have to agree with them. I am a guest here. I do not try to impose my views and opinions on them and they don't try to do it to me. All they ask is that i respect their country and its traditions and the values they hold dear to them. Family being the most important. Is it fear of homosexuality? I would say to an extent that it is. They are scared that their kids will be exposed to homosexuality. They don't even want their kids to be exposed to sex at the early ages we do it. And let's compare the sociological factors between the UK/USA and Russia. Russia has a much lower reported crime rate than the UK and US. Now I am not saying that homosexuality is the cause of this. That would be completely incorrect and stupid. But ask yourselves who should be dictating which laws to whom? Nobody. Not you, nor I, nor anyone else. Sort your own home out before criticising other's.

Originally posted by omass
Well....I haven't read everything yet and this is sort of old but I know one thing. I know alot of Russians and simply making a gay joke CAN actually getten you beaten up, and the cops will just laugh it off. Honest. I'm not gay but this is how it is. Just saying.

That is utter rubbish. I have made countless jokes to Russians about their sexuality. And I don't just mean friends. Russians like a bit of a joke and they know when a joke is a joke. I've even made jokes to groups of gopniki and ex-army guys - these are the guys that get most of the negativity - and they laugh it off. Yes, these are the guys that are more likely to beat seven shades out of you for being gay, but they only make up a small number of people here. There's a possibility you will get beaten up in smaller villages and towns, not much different from the USofA and that information comes from a significant number of expat Americans from smaller towns and cities who live here. Homophobic attacks have taken a steep rise in the US and UK in recent years. Why doesn't anyone highlight that?

I have been on many drunken escapades with some really hard guys in Russia, in bars, fishing, at dachas and other places. I was even "kidnapped" by a group of bikers one night after I commented on their leathers and questioned their sexuality - stereotypically violent guys. Russians sometimes take a piece of lemon after a shot of vodka, much like the way we do with tequila. Being Scottish, I always say that I don't drink girls' drinks, get me a whisky. Or if given vodka with lemon and some soda for afterwards I say "I don't do cocktails, girls..." and I have said this many times to groups of guys I have just met who want to buy me a drink because I am foreign.

I would really like to know where your Russian friends are from.

I don't understand how the gay minority has been able to capture so much attention in policy debates. The athiest/agnostic minority is much bigger bet gets no attention. I guess it's just cashing in on all sexual innuendo to attract attention.

As much as i wish the entire world would be tolerant and accepting and view us all as Humans not based on sexuality or race or gender or religion, i also understand that i cannot control the thoughts of others,

i claim i don't know much about the laws they are passing or passed regarding homosexuality, i don't believe any laws should be passed that would discriminate anyone but again i don't live in Russia and i probably wont travel to Russia

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by DarknStormy

What dont homosexuals get that everyone else does apart from marriage?

There have been many answers already in the thread. I guess you haven't been following?

Here is one of many. In Russia they discriminate (rather harshly) against homosexuals kissing in public.

But you will of course have to specify a country for an appropriate response.

Russia discriminates against homosexuals kissing in public? It is not discrimination. It may seem like discrimination to those looking in from the outside, but to Russians it is abhorrent, and not just the older generation.

Russia is not the barbaric country the LGBT community thinks it is. For example, it is illegal to drive with any amount of alcohol in your system. Gun control is very good too, unlike America, but not as strict as the UK.

The idea of boycotting an international event such as Sochi 2014 because Russia introduced laws to protect the traditional family unit is absolutely ridiculous. I said previously that Russia is not Europe. It is not the US. It is not anything except Russia. You don't live here. You don't understand. Simple. We in the so-called 'West' could learn so feckin' much from the Russians in terms of morality and manners, not to mention why their level of violent crime is low compared to the UK and US. This is something we have lost along the way. I came here for three months just under three years ago, and I was surprised by the level of hospitality and kindness shown to me. All of this from a draconian and barbaric country? The fact of the matter is that over 75% of the population support the law. Who are we to dictate the laws of another country?

It's not protecting the 'Traditional Family' we are not a threat nor threatening any 'Traditional Family'

these laws are being put in place because of Religious reasons, regardless if you are gay and religious you will still get discriminated against.

indeed, we don't control other countries laws. Regardless if you are for or against it, but that doesn't mean we can't show support for those that are getting discriminated against in other countries

saying we could learn from Russia about Morals sounds like Bryan Fischer

Originally posted by Darth_Prime
It's not protecting the 'Traditional Family' we are not a threat nor threatening any 'Traditional Family'

these laws are being put in place because of Religious reasons, regardless if you are gay and religious you will still get discriminated against.

indeed, we don't control other countries laws. Regardless if you are for or against it, but that doesn't mean we can't show support for those that are getting discriminated against in other countries

saying we could learn from Russia about Morals sounds like Bryan Fischer

If I knew who Bryan Fischer is, I would comment.

I am trying to give people an insight to this country from a foreigner's perspective. But first, a rant! ..then insight...

The LGBT community is hellbent on demonising Russia and the media are playing you all like little fiddles to gain support for the impending Syrian invasion. Do you forget about Pussy Riot? Navalniy? Putin and the NGO's (and Putin's interview on that was class) What about the American funding into student organisations to protest against Putin? And America's failed attempt at spreading lies about the election that they were found to have concocted, and all the other things our media reports on telling you how bad Russia is? What about all the crap that the media DOESN'T report on? Remember and ask yourself why you come to this site. Open your eyes and forget about your sexuality for once and stand up with your fellow citizens as people. Just people. Stop making a song and dance about your sexuality in, or about, another's country - it is not threatened! It is NOT illegal to be gay here. If you want to vent some spleen at those who DO condemn homosexuality, try the Vatican. Try the 76 countries in the world that HAVE made it illegal. Try the organisations that are prevalent in other countries that condemn it. You won't change Russia. You are not even hurting it. Let it be.

Believe what you will, but as I posted earlier on this thread, the vast majority of the population support it. Contrary to what you believe, the population of this country do see the exposure of homosexuality to their kids as a threat. This doesn't make them anti-gay.

Out of all my circle of friends, colleagues, peers, both Russian and non-Russian, an even higher number than the official and independent statistics support and understand the law. They don't want to go out and hunt gays down and kill them. People here are more liberal than you know, having been exposed to a one-sided viewpoint coupled with you own view as a homosexual. People don't want to have it on TV etc. and they support this. Simple. If you don't like it, don't come to Russia. Simple. The LGBT community is fighting a lost cause and it is having the opposite effect of what it is hoping to achieve. Russians are tired of the world telling them to conform to what the rest of the 'white' world is telling them. They have had the world point the finger at them for almost a century.

The Russians don't care what the world thinks about it when it comes to domestic matters. It is their country and there is nothing you can do about it. Live with it. If you compare Russia to the US, UK or Europe, and compare domestic and international behaviour, laws and family values, there is a very good chance Russia would come out on top. At least on a majority of things. But that is for another thread.

Clearly you have not lived here nor even travelled here. Russians are truly the most unique and interesting people I have had the pleasure to work and live with. I have lived in many countries across the glove over the last 15 years, and trust me when I say this, there is a lot to be learned from this misunderstood country, in many ways. If I went back in time and told myself that 15 years ago, my past-self would tell my future-self he is crazy. But the USSR was a closed country, and to be suddenly thrust into an open world, and exposed to all manner of different sociological changes in its short 22 years as a country, 10 of which were worse than what most people on this site could possibly imagine, I think it is doing very well. The economy is strong and getting stronger and the people here know this. We, in the 'West', are losing our grip and all we can do is lash out and criticise a law that is very clear, yet our own countries are guilty of so-called anti-terror laws that are unclear, atrocities against humanity, interventionism, manipulation of the news, lying to the people and our politicians are in the back pockets of very powerful men. I don't expect you to even change your opinion on this or to acknowledge and respect a country's wishes. I just wish people would start to look more closely at the grey areas as opposed to the limited perceptions of the black and white areas.

reply to post by Russophile

If you compare Russia to the US, UK or Europe, and compare domestic and international behaviour, laws and family values, there is a very good chance Russia would come out on top.

In comparison, you may be right. Try to spread so-called "hate speech" or walk with a swastika in a western country and see how long they will tolerate it. Its the same thing, really.

Altough "they do it too!" is a weak argument to use. The law is stupid either way.

reply to post by Russophile


your rant upon me is a bit out of context, not once did i ever demonize Russia, i never said "we" should be the one to have say in anyone's laws, i merely said we can show support to people around the world who feel they have none,

i never claimed knowledge of Russia as i have never lived there, and you are right i will never go there, but through the eyes of the LGBT family it may seem different then it does to you and we can show our support to them.

Of Course the Media sensationalizes propaganda around the world, as others do likewise, every power of every country has an agenda