Intelligent Designer? Not yet.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Explain if you can, why we're conscious, not how, I want a why. Then we can stop looking for purpose. You're problem is you cannot find purpose, so, like all sciences, you discard what you cannot explain.

It's as if you set out to figure out why we are conscious, but you got sooooo lost while looking for purpose, that forgot what you were searching for to begin with.

We are conscious and that is the only miracle one needs to seek purpose.

Thank you, I've been waiting for a response such as yours. The one tiny advantage atheists have over believers in a god is that we have no fear of saying, "We don't know." And we can seek an answer that will be free of hidden agendas. We can admit that we're wrong and keep on looking.

God believers can't do this. Whatever they try to figure out MUST have a final answer of a god. They believe this is the answer and they will manipulate any and all outcomes to ensure that a god answer (be it a supernatural being or universal consciousness) prevails.

As for WHY we're conscious: This question is only valid to believers in gods. It implies that we have a purpose. That we were created for a specific reason.

If our consciousness is so important, why was it created now and not at any other time in the last 14 billion years since the Big Bang?

If our consciousness is so important, why did it take 3 billion years of evolution to create it?

If our consciousness is so important, why is it wrapped in the same type of flesh and blood as every other animal on the planet?

If our consciousness is so important, why are some born with brain damage?

If our consciousness is so important, why are our thoughts guided solely by the chemical make-up of our brains - our emotions?

reply to post by jiggerj

God believers can't do this. Whatever they try to figure out MUST have a final answer of a god. They believe this is the answer and they will manipulate any and all outcomes to ensure that a god answer (be it a supernatural being or universal consciousness) prevails.t

Speculative at best.

Are you saying consciousness isn't important?

Originally posted by Barcs
Snowflakes are not information. They are H2O droplets frozen while moving through the air.

Though my point was that it would be so easy for the uninformed to claim that snowflakes were made by an intelligent designer, I have to ask:

Are you saying that no information was used in creating such perfectly shaped snowflakes? That they just happened to freeze in such intricate patterns?

In MHO, those who advocate intelligent design are surely talking strickly in terms of the physical appearance of this world.
They would be hard pressed to show very much, if any, intelligence in the way man 's mind and emotions operate.
So, they are left trying to explain the physical world through meta-physical terms.
My only question is where did this intelligence originate and how can the "not physical" so strongly manipulate the physical.
I am not questioning anyone's faith, I am asking for answers connected to the physical realm.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Explain if you can, why we're conscious, not how, I want a why. Then we can stop looking for purpose. You're problem is you cannot find purpose, so, like all sciences, you discard what you cannot explain.

It's as if you set out to figure out why we are conscious, but you got sooooo lost while looking for purpose, that forgot what you were searching for to begin with.

We are conscious and that is the only miracle one needs to seek purpose.

Even though I do not have ready access to them, many recent studies have shown we are not the only conscious beings on this world.
Though most of the other animals which live here on earth show signs of conciousness, they lack the facilities of memory which we enjoy and allows us to be so "self aware" as to think we are special.
Have you seen the vids which show crows making and using tool or monkeys who recognise themselves in mirrors. would they not need to be concious in order to do these things?

Originally posted by vasaga
Exactly. That's the biggest issue people have here.. They are so hateful towards religion that they fail to see that the 'designer' doesn't even have to be a religious God. One could also simply conclude that nature itself is intelligent. Or it could lead to a perspective of the biocentric universe, and there are more possibilities. People's grudges towards religion blind them from the possibilities.

Or people could just admit they don't know the answer and that further study needs to be done before making a conclusion one way or another? If you are looking for god or universal intelligence everywhere, you are going to find it. Everyone's got personal beliefs, they just don't always include an intelligent designer. Don't judge everything by its appearance.

Are you saying that no information was used in creating such perfectly shaped snowflakes? That they just happened to freeze in such intricate patterns?

Yep. Information is only what we make of it. It's not a tangible thing. I would say there are various factors as to why they take shapes. The answer is never, "it happened to be that way". People make it sound like a fluke or complete freak accident. We exist because the universe exists. If you want to venture beyond, you can, it's just all speculation at that point.

one problem with this explanation they do.... wait a moment !

even every child should understand this explanations how evolution was invented, why evolution is true but can not explain everything, why genetics and all that science behind it, right ? any religious people here that disagree???

cool than, lets talk about the end of this video and why I don't like it so much.

on the end they explain something like DNA / information has to come from somewhere. I agree.
But they tell us this referring to a complex human DNA, so many billions of information
that's right!, big big book of coded recipe.
question:
does not every single book starts with one first word? does a word does not start with a single letter?
for sure one letter is not that much of information but a word is.
They tell us DNA has 4 "letters", how sure it was always like this?
How can somebody be sure there are no DNA with 6 or 8 "letters" somewhere else ??

This is again MSM propaganda to keep people stupid and we all know there is no arguing with scientists, especially if from Harvard or Stanford.
They even say they have to accept an intelligent design but I'm sure somebody has already more standing theory but can not publish it as 80% population on earth is hold into religion and a creator.

time will tell

Actually the snowflake is a perfect example of subatomic information exchange to form structure at the nano/quark/gluon level.

Atoms (and subparticles) communicate per se.

It's this very same "communication" that forms the double helix, et al.

The meme that evolution happens by "chance" is a commonly used erroneous term. These things are not happening by chance at all, as science is now discovering. But rather there is actual "intelligence" going on at the nano particle level with all things great and small in the universe. Not intelligence by some magical being, but simply intelligence by way of atomic structure.

It's all an amazingly complicated web of sorts, all interconnected by way of the building blocks known as atoms/particles/quarks, etc. Keep in mind that absolutely everything is formed by these same atoms in one way, shape, or form.

All things.

Hence, the exchange of "information"... it's not by "chance" at all.

Science is now realizing that even water (a so-called non-living form) carries memory.

Oh, the wonders we have yet to discover...

Originally posted by seriousskeptic

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Explain if you can, why we're conscious, not how, I want a why. Then we can stop looking for purpose. You're problem is you cannot find purpose, so, like all sciences, you discard what you cannot explain.

It's as if you set out to figure out why we are conscious, but you got sooooo lost while looking for purpose, that forgot what you were searching for to begin with.

We are conscious and that is the only miracle one needs to seek purpose.

Even though I do not have ready access to them, many recent studies have shown we are not the only conscious beings on this world.
Though most of the other animals which live here on earth show signs of conciousness, they lack the facilities of memory which we enjoy and allows us to be so "self aware" as to think we are special.
Have you seen the vids which show crows making and using tool or monkeys who recognise themselves in mirrors. would they not need to be concious in order to do these things?

So, you're implying that it's not consciousness that separates us from all other living creatures, it's our long-term memory? I can live with that.

reply to post by jiggerj


Let me first say this:
Because of the wording in your second post, I'm assuming you consider yourself an agnostic atheist. As such, your first post should conclude to, “I don't know if God is here, because I cannot see him here.”

What your post actually concludes to is, “God is not here, because I can't see him here.” You are confusing atheism and agnostic atheism by doing so. The paraphrase, “God is not there, because I can't see him.”, is the basis of your argument. You are saying God cannot be found at X, thus he is not there. That logic is a fallacy, because you cannot say something isn't there just because you cannot see it, or measure it.

On to the post:
Saying an agnostic atheist has an advantage, because they can say, “I don't know”, implies theists might be wrong, and it asserts, theists do not question their faith; but I assure you, agnostic atheist aren't the only ones who question God. Moreover, the entire premise of faith is based on questioning God.

In reply to: “As for WHY we're conscious: This question is only valid to believers in gods. It implies that we have a purpose. That we were created for a specific reason.”

Does everything not happen with a purposeful cause? For an example: Imagine kicking a can and the rocks moving under it. Your purpose was not for the rocks to move, but a purpose is still the initial cause.

Now, to not answer your anecdotal questions:
The reason I said, "not answer", is because you are so far off from what I think consciousness is, that it would take me more time than I'm willing to invest to be able to answer your questions correctly. That is to say, you first need to redefine your basic understanding of consciousness.

Lets define consciousness by trying to solve the following questions:
When you think of consciousness, do you think that you are conscious, because you have a brain? Are brains the soul beneficiary of consciousness? If only brains have consciousness, how does the rest of the body know to act when your brain communicates to it? What exactly is consciousness?

Your problem lies here: You are losing sight of consciousness, because you consider only brains to be conscious because they're better at communicating concepts. You are making an error by assuming few concepts equal no consciousness.

Sure the brain is more evolved, and thus better at communicating concepts, but the leg must have a concept of motion, if you wish to move it. It must have a concept of touch, if it is to send an impulse to the brain that communicates that you are being touched by something. The brain, just like the nerves in your leg, must understand touch, in order to evolve to be able to receive the communication from the nervous system.

After completing the above thought process, you should be able to determine that consciousness is only concept communication.

To continue, you need to go further down this thought process while making cross connections to plants and other animals, and eventually you will see that everything has a concept; even quarks have the concept of motion.

So to answer all your anecdotal questions at once: I don't know.

To take a broad swing at it, though, I would say consciousness is important, because highly evolved consciousness better praises God.

However, my initial sentiment was that purpose is the reason theist, and I guess spiritual atheist alike, seek answers, whereas how is the reason science seeks answers.


You need to stop viewing the world as some physical thing and start viewing it in a way that doesn't confine you to measurable things.

Think of it like this: Can you measure thoughts, or are you just measuring how well they're communicated? Are synapse of the brain thoughts or are they just the way the mind retrieves information from the brain? Do thoughts not exist, if you can't measure them?

You may have to reread this post several times, but it should help you get on the right track. Also, it may help to refer to the post in my signature, and this post aswell.

Good luck man.

As such, your first post should conclude to, “I don't know if God is here, because I cannot see him here.”

reply to post by Bleeeeep



Actually, I believe 100% that there is no such thing as an all-knowing, all-powerful, invisible being who created the whole the universe, who lives in another dimension called heaven, who is perfect in every way, who was never born and will never die.

This, however, doesn't mean that an intelligent designer of our universe is off the table. Could be aliens or scientists from another dimension. A god...never.

reply to post by Bleeeeep

Let me first say this:
Because of the wording in your second post, I'm assuming you consider yourself an agnostic atheist. As such, your first post should conclude to, “I don't know if God is here, because I cannot see him here.”

Also known as, "I choose to believe he is here because you cannot prove he isn't."

Sounds like you've been sipping from Russell's teapot

In response to the rest of your post, consciousness is awareness. Hence, higher consciousness is higher awareness.

Moreover, the entire premise of faith is based on questioning God.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Not from me, but you might get a bit of flack over that. One either has faith or he doesn't. Can't have it both ways. I know it's a popular phrase to 'question one's faith' but that would make one an agnostic, wouldn't it? I have faith that you will respond. If I thought for one second that you wouldn't respond, then I have no faith at all.

Text

reply to post by Bleeeeep

Does everything not happen with a purposeful cause? For an example: Imagine kicking a can and the rocks moving under it. Your purpose was not for the rocks to move, but a purpose is still the initial cause.

Purposeful cause? No.

I think that's called collateral effects or damage or some such thing.

Lets define consciousness by trying to solve the following questions:
1. When you think of consciousness, do you think that you are conscious, because you have a brain?
2. Are brains the soul beneficiary of consciousness?
3.If only brains have consciousness, how does the rest of the body know to act when your brain communicates to it?
4.What exactly is consciousness?
5.Your problem lies here: You are losing sight of consciousness, because you consider only brains to be conscious

reply to post by Bleeeeep

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Synapses in the brain fire, sending electrical impulses to muscle and tissue.
4. From Wiki: Consciousness is:

the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.[1][2] It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, sentience, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind

5. Have some one pull your brain out and throw it in a blender. Do you still have consciousness?

reply to post by Bleeeeep

1. you need to go further down this thought process while making cross connections to plants and other animals,
2. and eventually you will see that everything has a concept;
3.even quarks have the concept of motion.

1. No I don't.
2. A conscious concept? No they don't.
3. A conscious concept? No they don't.

reply to post by jiggerj


How do you know?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

How do you know?

The claim is that everything has a conscious concept. Shall we ask a rock?
Consciousness is not a self-sustaining entity. Consciousness is created by machines, be it a brain or a computer.

reply to post by jiggerj

The claim is that everything has a conscious concept. Shall we ask a rock?

I looked over the definition for consciousness. I'm thinking there might be a small problem with it - we define everything according to the experiences we've had with those things we define. Isn't such a system slightly flawed, considering how limited our ability to experience actually is? As studies have shown us, there are entire worlds of experience that are not available to the traditional five senses of the human body.

Keeping this in mind, I think it's a little early to say anything for certain. If there is one thing that can be said about the human race, it's that we're too afraid to admit we don't know. And some say that the greatest strength comes in admitting your greatest weakness. Because as long as you're too weak to ADMIT that you are weak, then you will never be strong.

Just something to keep in mind.

Consciousness is not a self-sustaining entity. Consciousness is created by machines, be it a brain or a computer.

Who on earth says that we've discovered every "machine" there is to see?

reply to post by jiggerj

If our consciousness is so important, why was it created now and not at any other time in the last 14 billion years since the Big Bang?

Because the designer didn't want to put the cart before the horse.

Some artists labor for many years on a masterpiece. They hope that someone will see it and appreciate its beauty.

Carl Sagan said that we are made of star stuff. The carbon nitrogen and oxygen atoms in our bodies were created in previous generation of stars.


Humans are God's masterpiece.

If our consciousness is so important, why did it take 3 billion years of evolution to create it?

Consciousness didn't evolve.

If our consciousness is so important, why is it wrapped in the same type of flesh and blood as every other animal on the planet?

We were designed to inhabit the physical universe.

We inhabit this planet and receive sustenance from it.

You are what you eat.

The human mind is different than animals. An animal smells and touches, yes he learns, but his thoughts are based on current needs and past experience.

The human mind has the ability to take from the past and use intuition to project his creative mind into the future, seeing new possibilities and understand things beyond his past experience. ( This was articulated by Buckmister Fuller)

If our consciousness is so important, why are some born with brain damage?

Inherited imperfection.

This is one of the reasons I believe in the bible.

It has explanations for the human condition.

If our consciousness is so important, why are our thoughts guided solely by the chemical make-up of our brains - our emotions?

Do the chemical reactions occur and cause our thoughts, or do our thoughts cause chemical reations?

A human can choose.

A human has free will.