The new budget offer from the White House is unbelievable!

Now, please work to put aside party politics for just a moment, because this transcends all that and the Dems in Congress should be just as alarmed as anyone else. Truly, absolutely alarmed.

House Republicans said on Thursday that Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner presented the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a detailed proposal to avert the year-end fiscal crisis with $1.6 trillion in tax increases over 10 years, an immediate new round of stimulus spending, home mortgage refinancing and a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.

Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican leader, says he “burst into laughter” Thursday when Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner outlined the administration proposal for averting the fiscal cliff. He wasn’t trying to embarrass Geithner, McConnell says, only responding candidly to his one-sided plan, explicit on tax increases, vague on spending cuts…

Source

This isn't just an unwinnable offer, it's an attack of the most basic premise of the separation of powers written into the United States form of Government. I don't mean or even care about the taxes. That can be undone later or whatever....if it gets to be as painful as I and many others think it may become. That definitely isn't the point at all. They're crossing beyond that.

This is what Treasury, as a part of the Executive Branch, would apparently like to do away with the trouble of having to bother with seeking in the future:




And this is what it looked like on a monthly basis (Last column on the right) for the prior year of the last dates the report covers. The full report shows the rest of the chart going back to 2001. I cropped it to limit date range for size only. No other changes made and the original linked report has the full version.


Source - Congressional Research Service

..and what makes this so crucial and absolutely unprecedented for the shift in power these 'demands' represent is this:

SECTION 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

Source - U.S. Constitution

Congressional control of the national purse isn't just a quinky dink thing they threw in there at the last moment because someone had to have control of it. Oh absolutely NOT. The Founding Fathers even discussed the idea of a joint Presidency between 2 equal men because of the concerns of too much power in the hands of the President......following such pleasant relations with King George. Congress has control of the Purse as the President has control of regulation and enforcement so each branch provides a check and balance to the other. It's so that no matter how whacky times may get for extremes getting into office from any side, there is too much and too many required to go whacky in line for real damage to be done.

This would remove that in giving the power of the purse, effectively, to the executive Branch for spending into debt.

These are the same brilliant minds who have not passed a formal budget that would force guidelines to even stay inside of since early 2009. Now it's a demand, it would seem, to remove even the last restrictions on debt spending. I'm personally sickened by what this suggests for future thinking by our Treasury Secretary if no one else.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Did you expect less Dear Wrabbit?

Congress is already ineffective, but this takes the ineffectiveness, and gives a few, the power to destroy this Country. Not like they aren't doing it already.

This is the same as "Executive Privilege". It would most certainly, be abused at some point.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Isn't it wonderful?

A fiscal cliff looms on taxes.

The Sequestration looms.

The debt ceiling is going to max out in just a few weeks.

And people are worried about December 21st, 2012.

Good Christ! I've never seen a more flagrant power-grab!

This has got to be stopped. This is absolutely bald-faced criminality at its worst....

This by T.G. is tantamount to attempting a coupe of our Government, is it not? After all, the people are actually the government anyways.. He is attempting to circumvent quite a few laws here, and if he was successful, could be construed as a coupe of the American system of government..

They should fire up old sparky for Mr. Geithner, and put him in that chair and throw the switch.. He deserves to fry for conspiring to execute a coupe against America..

Well I wish I could say I'm surprised but I'm not.

It looks pretty bad when they have to up the debt limit every few months even to the average ignorant citizen. Pavlov proved even a dog learns from repetition, so keeping the debt problem out of the media they think will continue to subdue the sheep.

There seems there is no level of fraud or denial they won't go through to attempt to deny the economic fact that a massive default of debt, and running a zero deficit is what is required to ever have a true recovery.

Congress hasn't agreed on a budget, or much of anything in years. I think that most really don't even want the responsibility of having to vote at all anymore. They just want to be able to say well you know I didn't accomplish anything because of gridlock - not my fault, now please reelect me.

This is not going to end well.

oh my god

Things will really get interesting on the 23rd. While everyone has their attention focused on the 21st of December, my attention will be focused on the 23rd of December, which is the day the Federal Reserve charter is supposed to be up for renewal. There is a big chance to change the current debt-based system into something more sustainable...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm damn near the point of saying...

Screw it, let's jump off the cliff already.

Maybe the house should burn down. It's ridden with termites and dry rot alraedy. We can build another after all is said and done.

And we won't have those pesky Democrats (Termites) and Republicans (Dry-rot) getting in the way.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I'm damn near the point of saying...

Screw it, let's jump off the cliff already.

Maybe the house should burn down. It's ridden with termites and dry rot already. We can build another after all is said and done.

And we won't have those pesky Democrats (Termites) and Republicans (Dry-rot) getting in the way.

Well, by how the thinking seems to have flowed since around 2006, it's sure looking like we may get that leap whether we choose that or not. If not Jan. by some miracle, then even the CBO says the solution is only slightly better than the problem by adding another half trillion to the annual deficit in the process.....and that is before the idea of debt not being under Congressional authority comes into play. We also still have QE-3 putting out 40 billion a month or another near half trillion a year with open ended commitments. If the idea is to ruin the dollar, the effort is pretty well across the board and running full strength.

Indeed.. It may just come to that after all. I do hope the spirit of the American people is there and strong for rebuilding on the other side of whatever head the craziness comes to. It sure can't run like this indefinitely. The math stopped being absurd and just moved to ...disturbing.... quite some time back I'd say.

I'm by no means an economic mind, I like basics and fundamental aspects to be proper to begin with.

In saying that, anything the republicans immediately block, laugh at, argue against or ridicule i will back. Because after the last 15yrs of living on this earth the only sure thing apart from death and taxes is that the republicans are the most curropt bunch of neocons on this planet. If they have totally laughed at this economic package then it absolutely must be against their necon criminal ways, therefore I am for it.


- yes, i had many beers for lunch today!

reply to post by Agit8dChop

Liberals hate conservatives.
Dems hate republicans.
White and Blacks hate each other.
The rich think the poor mooched the system to collapse.
The poor think the rich embezzled the system to collapse.

We're even getting into the red state/blue state crap again and thats nonsense on it's face. The county by county of the nation is 90% overwhelmingly red. Although even that isn't a fair statement of the truth of things because to look INTO each county across the entire nation...whether red or blue...MOST of them came up near 50/50 split and the turn of a color is a turn of only a few % of the whole voting population at most. Each side have their exceptions, of course... Some districts went impossibly 99% or 100%. Math is fuzzy in some places, indeed. lol...

The thing is, the above hatreds being played out like a dozen Hatfield and McCoy grudges are 100% insuring that we DO knee jerk reject the ideas or discussion of the other side. Talking AT and not with each other is the norm and EVERY topic is a 100% all or nothing winner take all fight to the bloody finish anymore. It's how our Union ends, not sorts out it's problems.

Meanwhile, those who are feeding the flames and stoking the coals in political office sit and justify their salaries while voting pork and perk at every opportunity. Even reformers are porky pig at the trough in private. They laugh while we yell and they vacation while we tighten the belts and make do.

The anger is misdirected and not just counter productive to the disaster the thread is about, but it's destroying this nation one day at a time with little hope to get back from it anymore.

It is Argentina all over again. Next step after something like this will be deals with the IMF. Then the sell off of anything worth a damn that's left.

If such an overreach and breach of the constitution is ever passed is that then the crossing of the line in the sand? The straw that breaks the camels back? Once they start dismantling the checks and balances we all know things will begin to speed up. It will be too late at that point perhaps.

I just don't understand how the constitution is completely ignored. The entire lot should have been rounded up for treason a long time ago.

Good mother of nature, little Timmy Geithner is holding the reigns of our purse strings, heaven help us all.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I'm by no means an economic mind, I like basics and fundamental aspects to be proper to begin with.

In saying that, anything the republicans immediately block, laugh at, argue against or ridicule i will back. Because after the last 15yrs of living on this earth the only sure thing apart from death and taxes is that the republicans are the most curropt bunch of neocons on this planet. If they have totally laughed at this economic package then it absolutely must be against their necon criminal ways, therefore I am for it.

- yes, i had many beers for lunch today!

You do know that not even Democrats have supported Obama's budgets, right? I have a feeling you know nothing.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


This is just the latest step in making Congress and the Constitution irrelevant, which is by design. This is the ultimate goal of Progressivism.

Perhaps things need to get worse before they get better. Instead of applying the brakes, push the accelerator and speed up an immediate need for change.

I really wonder why people are defending the Republicans in Congress. Republican claim to be responsible with failing to increase the debt-limit, but they're just plain wrong. What's going to happen if Obama won't get a fair deal or veto the deal he got is that the credit-rating of USA is going to get worse. That will increase the US debt more than the budget Obama proposes. And, there is no scenario in classical nor keynsian economics where austerity leads to growth during our crisis. The Republicans are just plain wrong. I'm not saying that Obama is perfect, but he has a better plan.

That first chart will make you scratch your head and say "wtf?"

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism." - Aristotle

"Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty." - Plato

I am beginning to think some of the conspiracy theories on this board might be correct. There are those sayig TPTB know something is "coming" so they are spending money with no hope of repaying it because they know they won't have to.

Anyway...madness...absolute madness.

I wish there was some way we could tell the Gov "you guys borrowed and spent all this money without asking the people or allowing them to vote or have a voice in it...it's your problem, not ours". Then the credit collectors start calling them 5 times a day and threatening them.

reply to post by PvtHudson

You do know that not even Democrats have supported Obama's budgets, right? I have a feeling you know nothing.

Yeah, I don't get it. From what I'm reading, this is the exact same budget that Obama proposed last spring that didn't even get a single vote from anyone. Now, Harry Reid is saying that all of the Democrats are completely supportive of it?

Does anyone know for sure whether or not this is the exact same proposal from last spring?

Here are some details on the original 2013 budget proposal that Obama gave out in February 2012.

en.wikipedia.org...