Rock throwers shot at by border security -16 year old boy killed who was not involved.

Originally posted by aivlas
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

Out of context

In the latest incident, the two smugglers were trying to climb the fence back into Mexico, while Border Patrol agents and Nogales Police Department officers were ordering them down.

"Don't worry, they can't hurt us up here!" one suspect yelled to the other. Then came the rocks.

The police officers took cover, but at least one Border Patrol agent went to the fence and opened fire on Jose Antonio Elena Rodriguez, who was shot seven times, according to Mexican authorities.

The Border Patrol has revealed little information about the case as investigations continue on both sides of the fence that separates Nogales, Arizona, from Nogales, Sonora, literally a stone's throw from each other. The FBI is investigating, as is standard with all Border Patrol shootings, but it won't comment "out of respect for the investigative process", said US Customs and Border Protection spokesman Michael Friel.

edit on 24-11-2012 by aivlas because: (no reason given)

i meant in context of the whole article
and even in the excerpt nowhere in there does it indicate that they had a visual on mister rodriguez correct?

and yes if he is shooting in the same location its just as likely he blindly shot him 7 times as once
and i had already conceded that he may have shot specifically at him (he probably did but the point remains that nowhere in the article does it state that) but he had no idea of his involvement

reply to post by curiousrb


I think at this point we can agree to have different opinions? You haven't quite been this explicit but my assumption is that you blame this death on the border guards. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that, I don't like others putting words in my mouth and avoid it whenever I can in reverse but I think that's a safe guess.

I don't agree with that assessment quite obviously. First, he may as innocent and pure as the driven snow, which also means, he may not have. There was obvious provocative behavior going on near him from his side of an armed border area, and he'd have had to know at least that much. The border guards are not there for the amusement and target practice of people on the Mexican side. If there's anyone to blame, blame the rock throwers, blame the kid's parents, blame the Mexican government for not doing more to control their side. Blaming armed border guards for chasing off troublemakers at the border (pretty much the job they are asked to do) just doesn't fit here for me. No rock throwing = no one gets killed.

More info

mexicotrucker.com...
www.examiner.com...
www.kpbs.org...
Interesting image in that link
mexicotrucker.com...-5931

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by curiousrb

 

I think at this point we can agree to have different opinions? You haven't quite been this explicit but my assumption is that you blame this death on the border guards. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that, I don't like others putting words in my mouth and avoid it whenever I can in reverse but I think that's a safe guess.

I don't agree with that assessment quite obviously. First, he may as innocent and pure as the driven snow, which also means, he may not have. There was obvious provocative behavior going on near him from his side of an armed border area, and he'd have had to know at least that much. The border guards are not there for the amusement and target practice of people on the Mexican side. If there's anyone to blame, blame the rock throwers, blame the kid's parents, blame the Mexican government for not doing more to control their side. Blaming armed border guards for chasing off troublemakers at the border (pretty much the job they are asked to do) just doesn't fit here for me. No rock throwing = no one gets killed.

its not a matter of a opinion im fairly certain this officer breached protocol by firing at a target that had not been positively identified as hostile

its also not a matter of a opinion that there are much better ways of handling the situation

reply to post by sirhumperdink

It's very much a matter of opinion because they didn't breach any protocol you or I know of. And as far as handling the situation, not throwing rocks across an international border at armed border guards would be the best place to start. Then no bullets get fired. Pretty simple.

reply to post by HabiruThorstein


Sure do. And while you are partly right, part of his death I blame on the alleged ''stone throwers'', and I would like to say on his bad timing, but I wouldn't like to believe this should be an issue.

The annoying thing about both our point of views is that they are based off, something that is so far not addressed in the event. Whether or not he is innocent may not be known for a while. I doubt a huge investigation will be made due to the nature of the event, but I will stand by my point of him not being involved, until more evidence is provided.

This thread has definitely not been one of my best, and I'm quite disappointed in the direction it took - Turning into a bit of a feud. We may encounter each other soon though my friend.
You may find a message from a certain someone which will allow us to speak more one to one on this topic If you know what I mean.

And thanks Aivlas That image works in my favor

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

It's very much a matter of opinion because they didn't breach any protocol you or I know of. And as far as handling the situation, not throwing rocks across an international border at armed border guards would be the best place to start. Then no bullets get fired. Pretty simple.

edit on 24-11-2012 by HabiruThorstein because: typo

ill bet you anything that the border patrol is not allowed to open fire on a target that has not been identified as a threat to themselves or others
and yes the best response to people throwing rocks from across the border is to open fire on anything that moves completely correct on that point i dont know what i was thinking

the real disagreement here is that you have already deemed this kid guilty of the crime and therefor deserving of the "punishment"
what happened until innocent until proven guilty .....too good for a great patriot such as yourself

Originally posted by curiousrb
reply to post by HabiruThorstein

 

Sure do. And while you are partly right, part of his death I blame on the alleged ''stone throwers'', and I would like to say on his bad timing, but I wouldn't like to believe this should be an issue.

The annoying thing about both our point of views is that they are based off, something that is so far not addressed in the event. Whether or not he is innocent may not be known for a while. I doubt a huge investigation will be made due to the nature of the event, but I will stand by my point of him not being involved, until more evidence is provided.

This thread has definitely not been one of my best, and I'm quite disappointed in the direction it took - Turning into a bit of a feud. We may encounter each other soon though my friend.
You may find a message from a certain someone which will allow us to speak more one to one on this topic

If you know what I mean.

Well understood, look forward to it! It's about time for me to get on with my productive part of my day so I'm glad I caught this before shoving off so sincerest best wishes until then

Originally posted by sirhumperdink

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

It's very much a matter of opinion because they didn't breach any protocol you or I know of. And as far as handling the situation, not throwing rocks across an international border at armed border guards would be the best place to start. Then no bullets get fired. Pretty simple.

edit on 24-11-2012 by HabiruThorstein because: typo

ill bet you anything that the border patrol is not allowed to open fire on a target that has not been identified as a threat to themselves or others
and yes the best response to people throwing rocks from across the border is to open fire on anything that moves completely correct on that point i dont know what i was thinking

I guess since you can't address the real issue, you need to add a bit, like fire at anything that moves to shore things up eh? I won't waste time with someone who makes crap up. Good day to you,

HT out

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein

Originally posted by sirhumperdink

Originally posted by HabiruThorstein
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

It's very much a matter of opinion because they didn't breach any protocol you or I know of. And as far as handling the situation, not throwing rocks across an international border at armed border guards would be the best place to start. Then no bullets get fired. Pretty simple.

edit on 24-11-2012 by HabiruThorstein because: typo

ill bet you anything that the border patrol is not allowed to open fire on a target that has not been identified as a threat to themselves or others
and yes the best response to people throwing rocks from across the border is to open fire on anything that moves completely correct on that point i dont know what i was thinking

I guess since you can't address the real issue, you need to add a bit, like fire at anything that moves to shore things up eh? I won't waste time with someone who makes crap up. Good day to you,

HT out

i didnt make up anything i know for a fact police officers cant just open fire willy nilly...they need to identify a threat to themselves or others... wouldnt it be a safe assumption to make that border patrol has the same regulations
the real disagreement here is that you have already deemed this kid guilty of the crime and therefor deserving of the "punishment"

and if thats not true you can explain to me why you think its an acceptable outcome that a 16 year old kid who was not witnessed committing any kind of crime was shot 7 and killed because someone was throwing rocks at border patrol
what happened to innocent until proven guilty .....and a good day to you... the greatest patriot i ever knew!

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
As a former seller of illicit things I guarantee the smugglers weren't about to throw rocks and alert the lawless border patrol agents to their position. Couriers simply cant play with other peoples money. I smell bullsh*t. loads of it....

edit on 24-11-2012 by zonetripper2065 because: (no reason given)

I think what the story suggests is that the camo wearing pair took the bundles to US then ran back to MX. BP caught them on cam or from binocs way out and by the time BP caught up they were back in MX when BP got on the scene they started throwing rocks. Remember at some parts of the border its just a #ty fence there is no river or some impossibly huge fence. But to be honest in the border town the few rounds that were fired at citizens and or criminals was a drop in the bucket of how many rounds the border cities fire off every night. It saddens me to see our next door neighbor a slave to the cartels but there is only one way to release their power. Legalize drugs in America. South American citizens don't have the money to buy the drugs and it costs to much to ship anywhere else but the US/CA Cartel will have no job and will retire on all their billions.
The Cartel leaders will bring their money to the US and buy huge houses and cars just like Uncle Sam wants. I think the drug wars is just a huge scam to steal billions if not trillions of dollars. Look at all the cash they seize at the borders every year. There is no way they destroy the money, they use it to fund the border patrol agents pay checks. That's why I think the US

Maybe they'll learn to fire bullets instead of throwing useless rocks as both will get you killed if they get their sites on you.

No doubt rocks can be dangerous to small animals, but likely no more dangerous to full grown humans than foul balls at a baseball game unless they are cornered by overwhelming numbers of throwers.

Reminds me at how they've made spitting in the direction of LEO's or jailers a felony in many states, because they can't stand the fact that they can strip somebody naked, outnumber them 10 to 1, take everything they own and still get humiliated because they disrespect them with simple saliva. Of course their argument of making a felony is somehow somebody could transfer HIV which is less likely than being struck by lightning, but there it is disrespect them and they will kill you dead or make you do a couple of years behind bars.

Don't throw rocks at them just urinate in a water pistol and give them a urine shower.

Google street view of where it happened (taken 2009)

maps.google.co.uk...,-110.946915&spn=0.004211,0.008256&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=12.158247,33.8159 18&t=h&hnear=Nogales,+Sonora,+Mexico&z=18&layer=c&cbll=31.33262,-110.94681&panoid=f4cAhlT7-QgNgyycW2J61w&cbp=12,141.25,,0,3.43
or
goo.gl...

maps.google.co.uk...,-110.946808&spn=0.004211,0.008256&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=12.158247,33.8159 18&t=h&hnear=Nogales,+Sonora,+Mexico&z=18&layer=c&cbll=31.332623,-110.94662&panoid=BiMuMP7NJWkSxbg1Q6XYbw&cbp=12,327.36,,0,-14.76
or
goo.gl...

and a blurry shot taken in 2008 just down the street (can see the sign in the first link if you look left) on the American side
maps.google.co.uk...,-110.945644&spn=0.004211,0.008256&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=12.158247,33.8159 18&t=h&hnear=Nogales,+Sonora,+Mexico&z=18&layer=c&cbll=31.33279,-110.945379&panoid=J_ha5AYX-8it1QT8xLUN4w&cbp=12,270.7,,1,-2.09
or
goo.gl...



also a vid (taken 2012)
www.youtube.com...=370s
or
preview.tinyurl.com...

No doubt rocks can be dangerous to small animals, but likely no more dangerous to full grown humans than foul balls at a baseball game unless they are cornered by overwhelming numbers of throwers.

read the article, and no one wishes a life ended like this at 16, but i gotta side with blaming the troublemakers. for one, and i don't know who it was that posted rocks cant hurt and it doesnt matter, i know quite well someone who lost 80% vision in an eye due to a thrown rock smaller than a golf ball by a 9 year old. no where does it state the shot was a random potshot, so whoever tried to play the 'fire at anything that moves' card is a 0.

Ok, everything's been pretty well covered. Just a slightly different direction?

I'm seeing posts saying the kid was shot seven times, in the back, while running, in the dark, with none of the first six shots knocking him to the ground?

It seems we have the world's greatest marksman who must have been firing BBs, or does this shooting situation make sense to you?

Perhaps after one of the agents is murdered by an "nice innocent young man" who 'just happened' to be out right on top of the international border line, while a drug smuggling operation was in progress...and JUST happened to be around a bunch of people trying to do that very thing to the agents.....Maybe after that, they will be permitted the right to defend themselves in the eyes of many.

Probably not.....They'll still be called killers for defense shootings..but whatever. They went home to their families and the kid should NEVER have been where he was in the first place. It's another nation, not planet. Where are HIS parents to care about his well being during all this described happening all around him in the articles?


Now I was watching TV shows about the border years ago and around the time two other border agents went to prison for shooting a smuggler in the butt that were saying THEN..throwing rocks is considered assault with intent to kill and is very clearly communicated to both sides of the border by law enforcement ON both sides of the border. If someone is down there throwing rocks to injure or kill a US Federal Agent, they are either dumb as a post, arrogant as all get out or committing suicide by cop. That's clear by just how clearly and often the 'throwing rocks is taken as a deadly attack' message is communicated. It's not something confusing or even a little bit subtle.

Although, frankly, I wouldn't need told that throwing rocks capable of killing a man with one good hit might just be taken as intent to kill the one I'm throwing it at. That would be assumed clear by my actions....I'd imagine.

This was a tragedy, NO question, Sometimes though, we create our own tragic circumstances by our own choices......and I don't buy he "just happened" to be walking right through the middle of a cartel smuggling run like it was a dog doing it's business in the park on a bright sunny day.

Bahhh.... This stinks, but the Border guys aren't the ones I look at for the smell this time. Using kids is cold....cold as hell. The cartel is known to use them as trained assassins and that isn't theory. This isn't at ALL beyond what they do every day down there for using children. We'll see when the real investigation is complete.

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
As a former seller of illicit things I guarantee the smugglers weren't about to throw rocks and alert the lawless border patrol agents to their position. Couriers simply cant play with other peoples money. I smell bullsh*t. loads of it....

edit on 24-11-2012 by zonetripper2065 because: (no reason given)

Its called a diversion. If the smugglers paid the kids pennies compared to what they are making to distract the guards, then everything makes perfect sense. To think that some kids are that dumb as to actually throw rocks at the boarder patrol, the people who are trying to keep drugs off our streets, is rediculous. There has to be a reason for the kids stupidity and chances are it was money based.

Lesson learned--don't throw rocks at the boarder patrol!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
As a former seller of illicit things I guarantee the smugglers weren't about to throw rocks and alert the lawless border patrol agents to their position. Couriers simply cant play with other peoples money. I smell bullsh*t. loads of it....

edit on 24-11-2012 by zonetripper2065 because: (no reason given)

The smugglers pay others money to go and throw rocks at the border patrol. It gets attention away from the actual smugglers.

It's called a diversion.

Also known as acessory to a crime and assault.

Smugglers also pay good money to decoys who go in small groups to divert attention from the large groups that are brought across for profit by coyotes. They get arrested and sent back to Mexico where they do the job again.
Life is cheap on the northern Mexico border.

Originally posted by curiousrb
reply to post by mwood

 

Grown men seriously can't defend themselves against teenagers without using a gun?

Not that this is particularly related, but a group of 12 year old (and younger) eastern european children have killed adult men before without weapons.

reply to post by curiousrb


This kid must have been raised in the mid-east or maybe Gaza. How dumb can one be.