Do people even love their country anymore?

reply to post by AlreadyGone


bless you sir and thank you.

That will do. What you said made allot of sense. No need to complicate the little things and deconstruct the complicated things.

What you describe is what I miss the most. Your post really drove it home for me. You gave me hope and I truly thank you for that.

We are a great people, regardless if we hold the worlds "best country" title. I never thought that was what made us a great country. It was that we were good hard working people and we gave the world hope. No one can deny that. Whether we all had a sobering experience or not, home is still home to us. We know what we live for.

as long as we remember who we are, we control who we will become.

ROCK!

reply to post by BIHOTZ


Don't know about love but I see a lot of arrogance among the people because they belong to a country (if you are talking bout US).. Personally, I stopped feeling proud of America the day it started selling its soul to idiocity.. I now love science and maths, I love knowledge of whatever kind and I like appreciating people of all nationalities... I think americans whine a lot without doing much, we moan about multiculturalism but don't have many multicultural ministers or officers, we moan about technological superiority when there's just this top layer of scientists (containing Indians and asians mostly) ... I thin the society is getting dumb and will definitely fail in the next generation... Sad but true

yes, pride is what can get you in trouble. Love of ones land and people is the most normal response to being anywhere with anyone long enough.

It is at the core of being human to love your land and your people. Instinct even comes into play.

There is a global effort to give us mental diarrhea about who we are and how many dumb meaningless things we have to care about.

We are a great people. That is enough to be a great country. Even if we are poor, uneducated, and limited.

The way it doesn't break our stride is testament to our strength. The way we still produce responsible and level headed people is testament to our wit and skill. The way we can smile and laugh and have a good time has always been envied by the world. Trust me, people make it a point to come here once in their lives from abroad.

It is like a good times Mecca. The world over admires our salt of the earth.

There is an active effort to give us bad press and validation for that bad press. I cant help but not trust the whole global fake identity thing. It is a thing of ruin. If I was forced to be exactly like my siblings growing up and we couldn't be our own people, We would have secretly resented each other.

We need to avoid uniformity, since it is a device of control. If each nation had its identity in tact, no one would dream up world control through mass programing. There is no point to a global unity if war and exploitation will still be practiced by the strongest governments. No thank you. I am American and damn HAPPY about it.

call me nuts. I like the fact that what works for screwing over a Chinese guy wont work here. I like that the crap they pull on us cant be done to an Aussie so easily. We are better by being unique. It is when we all fall into the fallacy of a global harmony that doesn't exist, that we rob ourselves of our best chance at it.

When our country was young and too weak to project its strength outwards, people came here for a chance. Then we were a new life Mecca. We were a beacon hope to the world. All were welcome to join us in our humble but great nation. We worked hard and were a hearty people. We are still that at heart. We have been poisoned and cant really tell what to think anymore.

Just look inside yourself. Do you like Asian singing, or European cloths, or Arab family structures. Nothing against them, I do like some from that small list. But to say that any one form of anything is enough for all is not true.

individually, the opposite has happened. We have given up our common link to each other, our national identity and emptied our real communities for a FALSE sense of being different at any cost. So if apple pie is our thing, you will go out of your way to eat a rice cake? What is American pie too standard?

As life progresses we learn to appreciate constancy. Maybe because we are a young nation we need to experiment with all things. Hell maybe even Fascism if its worth a shot at what we want. I don't think that is what we want, but hell. We can try anything because as long as we remember who we are we will always be true and will gravitate back to what is right for us.

be true to yourself. You owe the world nothing.

Love my country? Nationalism divides and seperates us as a species. The first thing I thought of when reading through this thread was carl Sagans "Pale Blue Dot"
Sagan referenced a picture taken by Voyager 1 of Planet Earth as it was leaving our Solar System. His words in reference to the Earth and our place here are absolutely stunning and humbling at the same time:
“Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

reply to post by crawdad1914


Thanks for that. That was.....exactly what I think I needed to hear. I do feel that there is a responsibility to our species and our world. I see what you are saying and it is humbling.

That said, the reason why we must preserve those things that make us unique as a people and celebrate those things individualy that let us find common ground is because those things are, more often than not, the bonds that show us that we are not so different after all. The pact between people valued over the demand placed upon their cohesion.

Little pixel against another little pixel.....yeah. made allot of sense there.

I have dreamed about seeing the earth with my own eyes from space. It must be so many things beyond words.

Thanks for reminding me. That was a great post. Thank you.

If you will notice that the elite, uber-wealthy, be they individuals or corporations do not adhere to nationalistic tendencies. They do however encourage through their owned institutions of propaganda, namely mainstream media emphatically endoctrinate the working class ( that's you and me) to adhere to the evil and destructve construct called nationalism. This is nothing more than a methodology of control and subjugation, keeping the working class seperate and a ready pool of cannon fodder in trumped up ritualistic mass murder,I.e. War. These wars are simply premeditated mass killings to forward the avaristic and parasitic agenda of multinational corporations. It is high time that working class people worldwide recognise that we are united in a common struggle to end this reign of terror, facilitated, orchestrated and implemented by a very small minority of ultra rich, severely sociopathic. Enemies of. The people and their minions of syncophantic stooges. Let us rid ourselves of nationalism and instead recognise of universal fraternity/ sorority.

The decline of nationalism or patriotism is a by-product of the growth of what is known as the "global market". The global market itself is a by-product of the advancement in modern communications technology. People of all nationalities are now spread far and wide, and all can communicate and interact wherever they may be. A nation no longer sells a few things to a few ships in a dock. It sells everything to everybody, everywhere. As all nations do.

The "nation", therefore, has lost its legitimacy. It is obsolete, outdated.

Thus, to those benefiting most from the global market - i.e. multinational corporations - the "nation" must die.

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
reply to post by crawdad1914

 

Thanks for that. That was.....exactly what I think I needed to hear. I do feel that there is a responsibility to our species and our world. I see what you are saying and it is humbling.

That said, the reason why we must preserve those things that make us unique as a people and celebrate those things individualy that let us find common ground is because those things are, more often than not, the bonds that show us that we are not so different after all. The pact between people valued over the demand placed upon their cohesion.

Little pixel against another little pixel.....yeah. made allot of sense there.

I have dreamed about seeing the earth with my own eyes from space. It must be so many things beyond words.

Thanks for reminding me. That was a great post. Thank you.

edit on 1-8-2012 by BIHOTZ because: fix

You are welcome. I had a similar reaction when I heard Sagans words. Glad you enjoyed it.

The reality is, a piece of land is a piece of land. A residence is a residence. Nationalism makes no sense. So people who have the sense not to tie their identity with where they happen to reside are people who, IMO, actually have it right. It doesn't make them traitors, it doesn't make them anything but people who have a rational view on nationalism.

reply to post by FOXMULDER147


I would agree with you entirely and add this. The possible solution is not to end the market as it is to adapt it to its true purpose. That is, the acquisition of what is needed by those who need from those who have. The just compensation and with it the motivating factor in its non-zero sumness has to be diverted from a central benefactor to the primary benefactor. It is not trickle down but rather a dynamic flow of currencies and goods that we should establish as a primary objective. Like old world trade before the advent of privatized public contracts on open markets. They along with the bank note were the root of religion being used to vindicate piracy on the high seas. Asia was opened up by force. Africa and the Americas were all markets created by force for the express purpose of creating a system of economic authority taken by a martial dominance over trade.
EDIT:
Genghis khan was the pioneer of this. His empire was not an actual kingdom but a web of merchant routes and the cities (markets) paying tribute to him in exchange for allowed commerce. Some didn't have to fight if they agreed to divert a percentage of all wealth acquired from commerce to him. The central authority. He built nothing and mandated nothing. Only demanded tribute by force.

If trade were to take its natural tendencies of creating greater non-zero sumness, communication and social skills would increase and expand until community is established. It is how the tribe forms, the town, city, ect.

Up to what we have now.We are at an impasse that we should have overcome long ago. The greater social cohesion being constantly severed by the force of disorder stomping its way through the ages.The ability to adapt lost long ago when preserving dominance was put foremost beyond growing.

The cave man that lies about where the berries are to the other one who tells him where the best fish are.

When they meet in winter, 1 if he lived and did not starve looking for berries that were not there, he wont tell the liar cave man where to fish. That one dies. Goes Extinct. or adapts and surrenders doninance in favor of group unity and so, greater survivability.

It is holding us back from our true potential. End evolutionist.

The fall of the tower of Babylon.

Originally posted by Acidtastic
How can I be proud of England?

I'm not from England...but if it wasn't for the English then the notion of civility and decency may never have been born.

The English deserve a lot of credit for today's civilized man (true, we're not perfect by any means but the English gave us a strong push in the right direction that almost always goes uncredited).

If I were in your boots, I'd be very proud to call England home.

reply to post by HEYJOSE


yes and no.

I agree with everything you said with the addition of this.

That their brand of nationalism is actually an usurped manufactured identity not ever totally inline with the countries core beliefs. You are always a subdivision of your primary role as a citizen. A race, creed, political orientation type of "American" for example. They place trivial differences focusing on everything from sexual orientation to religious denomination.

That has nothing to do with true national pride. Customs, culture, language....that is national identity. Not what type of that nationality. It goes off the premise from its inception that there are types of Americans and that the actual national identity of unity does not exist. That in fact a non-tangible one is the only valid form. The very notion of nationalism is a sense of unity in its true form. It is not, as can baselessly be made to be the case that always it is against others. A contradictory force.

I argue that in its true form it helps establish a base from which different people can cooperate and be mutually beneficial. Especially amongst large groups of people like nations. It creates structure that is conducive to growth and stronger bonds in the interest of increasing the quality of the relationship.

That is how community is formed. We need to do that globally since as was mentioned, that is our reach. We can not let an illusion of authority from some influence the survivability of our species and the possibility of it being diminished. Because that is also within our reach.

IMO has happened before..

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
That tier is actually love and belonging and can be satisfied by anything from a pet to a best friend to a harem of women.

The desire to be part of a collective doesnt stem from the third tier but from a failure to self actualize and are attempts to clear up identity uncertainty.

Doesnt matter what the group is, national identity, political party, Facebook group or international terrorists. The behavior of joining an external group is a disorder.

I am no psycology expert but I am going to disagree that all people who seek out groups with which to identify have a disorder and a failure to self actualize.

Likewise the third tier is not just love, while that is part of a person's needs there is the need for social status, through work and other associations with say fraternities or clubs.

Structure and knowing a person’s place in that structure much like with a wolf in a pack makes a person (most certainly a wolf) more at ease and content. Unclear roles or lack of structure is bad for everyone concerned. Leads only to bad things and stress.

That is why the military works so well - it has a hierarchy and well defined structure/culture and while one can compete to change his status it is done in a way that screams structure and security. An individual who doesn't accept his role and is constantly struggling to change status or position or constantly being unsure of one’s place in a hierarchy because of the failure of the leaders above him just leads to individual depression and mental disorder and organizational ineffectiveness.

Humans are social animals and crave very much the association with others who share the same beliefs and even physical characteristics as they have. Watch strangers on a bus or plane during an unannounced delay. They seek out people who look like themselves, talk like themselves and think like themselves to share the stress the event has created. You will see divisions along the lines of education, race, age, jobs, and other more subtle divisions. as the groups break apart to discuss their options and share their reactions with people with whom they might identify.

Are you saying anyone who seeks a group for fellowship and security has a mental disorder and only individuals who maintain social distance and isolation (physical or emotional) from others are truly well adjusted? I don’t buy that at all…

Originally posted by Golf66

Are you saying anyone who seeks a group for fellowship and security has a mental disorder and only individuals who maintain social distance and isolation (physical or emotional) from others are truly well adjusted? I don’t buy that at all…

Both are maladjusted.

In the wolf pack analogy exists all the sickness and disorder found in humans. Pecking orders are established to fit each sick individual in a position where their sickness is satisfied. Like electrons moving to balance atoms.

A balanced atom doesnt attract extra electrons and isnt attracted to other atoms.

So the "pack" or any other social structure is simply a way for these unbalanced atoms to find the proper electrons at the proper orbits to balance themselves and the element. A hostile sociopath takes charge of a timid doormat and they find "belonging" together. It's sick.

The military is the same way. It works so well (not really) because so many are so sick.

I dont mean to say "sick" or "disorder" in any derogatory way. Nearly everyone suffers from this. It is a "normal" state of ill-being which is why such nonsense as national identification or professional sports affiliation or even pride in brand of beer consumed are such widespread phenomenon reaching every social class across the globe.

It is what it is. And it's a disorder. No one healthy should be actively seeking relationships or actively avoiding relationships. What comes comes and it's mostly healthy enough. When fanaticism sets in though it's time to take a step back and take stock in your life.

When people say "humans are social animals" and people "crave association" they are referring to the majority who have this disorder. A "normal" sickness. The world is full of properly adjusted individuals who have no such compulsions. No desire for association yet no reclusive tendency to isolation.

Think how ridiculous it sounds for a person to say "I need a friend" or "I hate everyone." Neither are signs of a well-adjusted human being. Well, I suppose that depends on what that human being is supposed to be "adjusting" to....

The vast majority of people either want to be controlled or want to be in control. This is sick. The healthy person wants neither.

This was done by design. They want to destroy countries and have corporations run everything.

Which is what is starting to take place. I personally will never, ever bow to a corporation, ever.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


I am Canadian, and I love my country...

Some things that are happening in our country I am not so fond of, like the moving toward private penetentiaries (though it is not solidified yet.) But I can truly say I love my country.