Can't We Have an Even-handed Discussion About the Holocaust?

reply to post by erictcartman

The difference is the gypsys and other victims, didnt want some one elses land. Plus gods chosen people, have the media television and hollywood all sewn up. Same with the banking system. So if you say anything other than gods chosen 6 million died. Then you are a knuckle dragging nazi anti semite. You can research any other part of history, but if you try and research the 6 million dying in death camps. Then you will be arrested. History? written by the winners. Im not saying there wasnt a holocaust. There was one. Funded by american jewish wall street bankers, who firstly attacked Russia then Germany.

i hope this isnt off topic but its one hell of a coincidence,i was up late last night and i happened to catch part of a documentary on one of the discovery or history channels,
i was surprised to hear the narrator say a man called rosenberg was one of the key architects of nazi racial theory.
surely rosenberg is a jewish name?
this brought to mind a quote attributed to reynard heydrich where he calls himself a zionist wanting to expedite the migration of european jews to palestine.
i wish i had the inteligence and resources to research this, on the other hand id probably end up in jail.

reply to post by erictcartman


Only die hard conspiracy theorists believe every Rosenberg must be a Jew:

en.wikipedia.org...

Very well Laid out. Most won't like it.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

I agree completely with the 'follow the money' line of reasoning. The problem is when you do that, you get labelled anti-semitic.

Really? Well that would depend on whether you followed the Nazi trail of money or was too busy reading neo nazi nonsense wouldn't it?

Do you know how much is estimated that the Nazi's stole and looted? Any idea? Do you know about the Ratlines and the Vatican connection? Do you know how many Vatican officials were involved? Do you know how much money was paid to the Dictators of South America to protect and turn a blind eye to the escaping nazi's? Do you know how many escaped?

Do you know how much wealth was recovered by the Allies (especially USA) when making deals with the Nazi's at the end of the war? Do you know how much the US OSS was involved with the Vatican and the Ratlines/Oddessa?

We have to learn from the mistakes of the past, not diminish them, we have to try and make sure that it never happens again, no matter how much you hate another religion or culture!

And for those people on here who keep trying to state that Jews claim that 6 million Jews were killed by Gas Chamber, what utter and complete rubbish! No one has ever claimed that other than holocaust deniers trying to create hatred. Most Jews and other victims of the holocaust were murdered by bullets which were quick and expedient for the Nazi's.

The object of Jewish people remembering the horrors of WW2 are to make sure it does not disappear from memories as for it to do so, would make it so easy for history to repeat itself. One has to only look at the hatred towards Jews on this site to see this. Most of this hatred comes from ignorant people who have probably never even met a Jew and just know a stereotype portrayed to them by other uniformed people.

I suggest that you read a bit more. Peter Levenda's latest book 'Ratlines: Soviet Spies, Nazi Priests and the Disappearance of Adolph Hitler' is highly recommended, as is 'The Rise of The Fourth Reich' by Jim Marrs.

Finally, whilst i would agree that perhaps the Rothschilds family are maybe selfserving, they do not represent all Jews. In WW2 the Jews that suffered and died were ordinary people: Shoemakers, Locksmiths, Tailors, Shopkeepers, Factory Workers, Housewives, Mechanics, etc., few who suffered were the Banksters!

Stop blaming Jews and Germans and start to educate ourselves. Let's blame the Banksters (of all faiths) and the Nazi's (of all nationalities).

Originally posted by ZakOlongapo
jews(zionists) -> jews holocaust(lie) -> palestine -> palestinian holocaust(real) * -> ISRAEL
jews(zionists) -> media -> politics -> entertainment -> banks -> israel
jews(zionists) -> lies -> wars -> agenda -> usa -> israel
jews(zionists) -> israel(Zion) -> PROBLEM!

that's how i feel it...

Then you are very uninformed and wrong!

Not all Jews are Zionist - fact.
Not all Zionist are Jews - fact
Not all Banks are run by Jews - fact
Not all media outlets are run by Jews- fact (ever heard of an Australian named Murdoch - hardly Jewish)
Not all entertainment companies are run by Jews - fact (however many are, but seriously I don't see much wrong with that?)
Not all lies are Jewish - fact

Have you ever heard of Bilderberg? Council of Foreign Relations? FreeMasons? Evangerlists? Vatican? Mormons? Royalty? None of them are Jewish, all have power, high finance and conspiracies!

Can a murder occur to someone who doesn't exist ? could you jail someone for claiming that someone killed someone who had no name or identity ? would it be fair to just ask for a name ?






Show me a list of people 6 million people of Jewish decent who died in German Prison camps, the Germans were meticulous in everything they did. Do that and I will shut up for ever.

reply to post by mazzroth


You can start with this, including the bibliography:

www.ushmm.org...

Originally posted by mazzroth
Can a murder occur to someone who doesn't exist ? could you jail someone for claiming that someone killed someone who had no name or identity ? would it be fair to just ask for a name ?






Show me a list of people 6 million people of Jewish decent who died in German Prison camps, the Germans were meticulous in everything they did. Do that and I will shut up for ever.

If you go to Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Museum in Israel) you will find exhaustive records and documents of all the Jewish, Romany, Gay, Mentally/Physically Handicapped and other victims of the Nazi Camps. The records are there and they are facts.

What people do not realise is that the Nazi's set out to wipe what they deemed 'inferior' people from the face of the Earth, especially (although not exclusively) Jews.

i dont have any problem beleiving 6million jews died during ww2 all told,but i struggle to understand how the majority of these deaths could have happend in the camps, the logistics of such an undertaking is mind blowing especially when germany was fighting a war on two fronts for its very survival.
there are many discrepancies regarding the accepted version of ww2 history my own personal favorite is the question of rudolph hess's long prison sentence and somewhat suspicious death.
i also think the question of wether or not hard core zionists were part of the nazi party(there were rumors heydrich was of jewish descent which aparently himler was aware of) and willing to sacrifice milions of ordinary jews as well as countless others in order to facilitate a return to palestine.
i think this is a valid question and it does not make me a nazi or a hlocaust denier.
To OP the answer is obviously not.

Originally posted by erictcartman
i dont have any problem beleiving 6million jews died during ww2 all told,but i struggle to understand how the majority of these deaths could have happend in the camps, the logistics of such an undertaking is mind blowing especially when germany was fighting a war on two fronts for its very survival.

If you look at it slightly differently, or from another angle rather, and divide the deaths into two seperate economic issues it does become slightly clearer.

Firstly, the concentration camps provided free labour, slaves in fact, which enabled rapid expansion of the new German Reich, and facilitated the civil engineering projects, which otherwise could not have been accomplished in such short shrift, if the entire workforce had had to be paid. Similarly, it aided in the rapid growth of the machinery needed to create the massive military force. Germany would not have been ready for war had it not had slave labour to lighten the expense of such massive, rapid growth.

Secondly, Aktion Reynard, the systematic and industrialised mass murder of the Reich Jews was in part necessitated by the 'war on two fronts'. By drawing the Germans into attacking Russia, the Allies effectively signed the death warrant of the Jews, and further, by ensuring that all transit routes were closed, by means of Naval Blockades, they prevented the Germans from evacuating those Jews, as planned, to first Palestine, and then, when that failed to be quick enough, to Madagascar. Germany, which was already beginning to run short of supplies and was struggling to meet the needs of it's ethnic German population, was unable to support the Ghettoised Jews, and therefore a decision had to be made to either to allow them to starve to death, or to expediate their death by other means.

However, it can also be considered that had the Germans not expended so much of their resources shunting the Jews backwards and forwards then they would not have wasted so many resources and they would not have been forced to make such a heinous decision.

Originally posted by erictcartman
there are many discrepancies regarding the accepted version of ww2 history my own personal favorite is the question of rudolph hess's long prison sentence and somewhat suspicious death.

I find this fascinating too. I think that it is particularly telling that Britain had always said that he would be released once the Soviets agreed to it, assuming that they never would, but then when Gorbachev said, 'okay', he suddenly died. Hmmm! The majority of the British SIS file on Hess has still not been released. Now really what could be such a threat to national security that over seventy years after his arrest, we still can't make that public?

Originally posted by erictcartman
i also think the question of wether or not hard core zionists were part of the nazi party(there were rumors heydrich was of jewish descent which aparently himler was aware of) and willing to sacrifice milions of ordinary jews as well as countless others in order to facilitate a return to palestine.

Heydrich's Jewish descent is somewhat irrelevent, he did not consider himself Jewish. He may have had a Jewish relative, but he did not feel any loyalty to the Jews, but neither did he relish their genocide. However, he did enter into an agreement with Israeli militia who set up a training facility in Berlin and with the help of the Gestapo, they were provided with approximately 300 new recruits each week, who were trained and then despatched, not always willingly, to Palestine. Heydrich made every effort to force the Jews to emigrate but it simply did not happen at the rate that was 'required' to happen. And then, Britain took action to prevent the immigrants from landing in Palestine, thus ending that option altogether. The option of Madagascar was then explored, with Eichmann and a number of his subordinates even getting their shots and undergoing 'tropical training'. But as mentioned above already, that route too was made impossible due to the British Naval Blockades.

reply to post by Biliverdin


excellent post,i know heydrich never considered himself a jew but there is a quote attributed to him where he calls himself a zionist.
everything about hess,from the lone flight,to his death is very wrong,albert speer lived a life of luxury after the war as did field marshall paulus in communist east germany,as im sure you know.
i dont think any of the nazis who escaped the noose at nuremburg were treated as cruely as hess,werent they all let out of prison after fairly short sentences in the sprit of reconciliation?
i honestly think hess must have known something that would have been devastating to the allies even after all this time.
obviously this can only be speculation but i do wonder if churchill had put out feelers for peace with germany, only for him to doublecross hess when he was sure germany was going to invade soviet union.
even this doesent feel quite right though.
woulld you consider starting a new thread on hess and the riddle of the infamous flight,his subsequent imprisonment and very suspicious death?

Here is the link to a video where David Irving reveals that the allegations of mass killings of jews by gas chambers was a British propaganda lie. He talks about this around 26 minutes into the video

David Irving reveals gas chamber lie

I won't be getting into the meat of this, only have a opinion on these two snippits in your OP. First off your a little to optimistic about this thread turning out to well as the Anti-semitics crawl out of the woodwork during these threads. Also my WW2 history is a bit rusty.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
Aside from the fascist Italians, it wasn't just some Germans who were nazis.

True and good point.

They found people all over europe who shared the basic nazi ideology of racial superiority

Eugenics was popular during that time, even a U.S magazine(can't remember which one think it was time but don't hold me to that) once promoted Hitlers progress on it.

Eugenics was practiced in the United States many years before eugenics programs in Nazi Germany[and actually, U.S. programs provided much of the inspiration for the latter.Stefan Kühl has documented the consensus between Nazi race policies and those of eugenicists in other countries, including the United States, and points out that eugenecists understood Nazi policies and measures as the realization of their goals and demands.

Most popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and now generally associated with racist and nativist elements (as the movement was to some extent a reaction to a change in emigration from Europe) rather than scientific genetics, it was considered a method of preserving and improving the dominant groups in the population.

en.wikipedia.org...

This was a terrible time in history, Were racisim peaked in my opinion and it was because of this and seeing those death camps that paved the way towards civil rights. Though again just my opinion things could have turned out the same maybe?

resentment against the international jewish bankers that Hitler blamed for Gemany's defeat in WW1.

This is a topic I've always wanted to discuss on ATS, where Hitler used a conspiracy theory(Which someone will no-doubt say is true on here) to manipulate people and provoke fear. Even conspiracy theories can be used to confuse and twist the facts.

There were french nazis, swedish nazis, polish nazis, rumanian nazis and prior to the war there were popular nazi movements in Britain and the US. Hitler's nazis found kindred spirits in every country they sent their armies into.

And there still are Nazis to this day! Scary thought though I think their a dying breed. This was all started by the Eugenics movement.

What's disturbing about this is that the Holocaust is not blamed on just the Nazis. Oh no. It's blamed exclusively on the German nazis and the German people as a whole even though by the end of the war.

Well you guys where the figureheads of the movement and even though the Holocaust is the biggest tragedy of WW2, Everyone was guilty during that time of on thing or another. America was sterilizing people and imprisoning its own citizens based of race. Japan and the Rape of Nanjing, Russia sacrificing people by the boatloads, France and Britain didn't cause anything in particular I can remember.

However there were Causes during WW1, few are innocent of the time period and we all should remember our past mistakes. I for one will never forget or stand for if it were to occur again if interment camps started cropping up again.

You shouldn't feel ashamed of your Heritage, but should forget its past mistakes either.

Originally posted by erictcartman
excellent post,i know heydrich never considered himself a jew but there is a quote attributed to him where he calls himself a zionist.

I apologise I missed your response previously.

As I think I tried to explain, Heydrich was a Zionist, in the traditional sense, he believed that the Jews should have their own state, preferably, in the Palestinian Mandate. The motives behind those beliefs are less clear. Certainly he supported the Nazi racial ideal, but at the same time, according to his wife, he also resented being made responsible for dealing with the Jews when an emigration solution failed, and he clearly did his upmost to facilitate a solution that did not involve mass murder. He worked closely with the Jewish militia, and sent Eichmann to meet with those leaders in Palestine, but he was hampered in his efforts not only by British Naval and intelligence activity, but also with those within the Nazi Party who sought to bleed the Jews dry of all their resources and the insistence that those Jews pay their own way. With his close friend Admiral Canaris he instigated a plan to ship en masse the remaining Jews to Palestine, which failed due to the British blockade, and then to Madagascar, which also failed due to a leak that alerted Britain to this plan and instigated a further blockade. One could almost wonder why the Allies were so keen not to allow the Jews to escape from their eventual fate.

Originally posted by erictcartman
everything about hess,from the lone flight,to his death is very wrong,albert speer lived a life of luxury after the war as did field marshall paulus in communist east germany,as im sure you know.
i dont think any of the nazis who escaped the noose at nuremburg were treated as cruely as hess,werent they all let out of prison after fairly short sentences in the sprit of reconciliation?
i honestly think hess must have known something that would have been devastating to the allies even after all this time.
obviously this can only be speculation but i do wonder if churchill had put out feelers for peace with germany, only for him to doublecross hess when he was sure germany was going to invade soviet union.
even this doesent feel quite right though.
woulld you consider starting a new thread on hess and the riddle of the infamous flight,his subsequent imprisonment and very suspicious death?

I think that there are already a few threads covering that topic. Perhaps it might be better to ressurrect one of those rather than start another.

I personally feel that the punishment enacted against Hess was of the cruelest and most unusual kind. In my opinion it would have been kinder to have executed him. While he did draft the Nuremberg Laws, it was Speer who organised and instigated the slave labour programme, which under international law at that time, was a criminal offence. It is not an offense to impose laws upon your own citizens, such as the Nuremberg Laws, however heinous, were, it was, and is, illegal to transport people into your country for the purposes of slavery.

It is worth noting that the Hess file is still under the official secrets act and though due for review in 2013, it is doubtful in my mind that it will be made public, and if it is, that it will be heavily censored. Many of the records already, it has been claimed, were destroyed by fire, I expect a similar tragedy to befall the rest.

According to Martin Allen in the Hitler Hess Deception, Churchill did indeed lure Hitler and Hess into believing that peace was a possibility, and that the condition of that peace was that the Nazis were to declare war against the Soviets. Part of the ploy, according to Allen, and Charles Whiting, in Hitler's secret war, was to convince Hitler that Churchill was about to be overthrown by a vote of no confidence. Hitler wasn't so naive as to expect Churchill to make peace with him, but he was well aware that he and his policies had many supporters amongst the aristocracy and industrial community in the UK.

With Hess's capture, and assuming that Hitler was aware of the motives behind Hess's flight, Hitler was faced with a quandary, and clearly left in a void of advise. He vacillated over his the date of attack, but all the while he was building up his forces. Britain at the same time, was, by various means, telling Stalin quite explicitly that the Germans were amassing for attack, Stalin though, assured of the sanctity of the none-aggression pact, dismissed these alerts.

What is telling about the whole episode, is that right up until his death, Hess was never permitted to be alone with his visitors, even his own son. I think that it is a disgrace that a human being be treated in that way for so long, especially since most of crimes for which he was held accountable, occurred after he was in captivity.

I don't think there's anyone on the planet who would disagree that it was Hitler's revoking peoples rights to firearms that led to so many disabled German, Jews, and other people getting mass slaughtered.

Guess what they are proposing? The UN Small Arms ban they are passing thru and will soon force all countries to remove firearms from citizens...even Amerika after Obama gets re-elected....will soon be getting disarmed and this time a greater portion of Earth will be slaughtered.

Not only did the Holocaust happen but Holocaust #2 is happening right before the worlds eyes. We are on the eve of another Holocaust.....Africans...Indonesians...and those in the middle east are already getting slaughtered with hundreds of millions getting killed off in the last decade alone.

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

I agree completely with the 'follow the money' line of reasoning. The problem is when you do that, you get labelled anti-semitic.

Really? Well that would depend on whether you followed the Nazi trail of money or was too busy reading neo nazi nonsense wouldn't it?

Do you know how much is estimated that the Nazi's stole and looted? Any idea? Do you know about the Ratlines and the Vatican connection? Do you know how many Vatican officials were involved? Do you know how much money was paid to the Dictators of South America to protect and turn a blind eye to the escaping nazi's? Do you know how many escaped?

Do you know how much wealth was recovered by the Allies (especially USA) when making deals with the Nazi's at the end of the war? Do you know how much the US OSS was involved with the Vatican and the Ratlines/Oddessa?

We have to learn from the mistakes of the past, not diminish them, we have to try and make sure that it never happens again, no matter how much you hate another religion or culture!

And for those people on here who keep trying to state that Jews claim that 6 million Jews were killed by Gas Chamber, what utter and complete rubbish! No one has ever claimed that other than holocaust deniers trying to create hatred. Most Jews and other victims of the holocaust were murdered by bullets which were quick and expedient for the Nazi's.

The object of Jewish people remembering the horrors of WW2 are to make sure it does not disappear from memories as for it to do so, would make it so easy for history to repeat itself. One has to only look at the hatred towards Jews on this site to see this. Most of this hatred comes from ignorant people who have probably never even met a Jew and just know a stereotype portrayed to them by other uniformed people.

I suggest that you read a bit more. Peter Levenda's latest book 'Ratlines: Soviet Spies, Nazi Priests and the Disappearance of Adolph Hitler' is highly recommended, as is 'The Rise of The Fourth Reich' by Jim Marrs.

Finally, whilst i would agree that perhaps the Rothschilds family are maybe selfserving, they do not represent all Jews. In WW2 the Jews that suffered and died were ordinary people: Shoemakers, Locksmiths, Tailors, Shopkeepers, Factory Workers, Housewives, Mechanics, etc., few who suffered were the Banksters!

Stop blaming Jews and Germans and start to educate ourselves. Let's blame the Banksters (of all faiths) and the Nazi's (of all nationalities).

Well said.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
Here is the link to a video where David Irving reveals that the allegations of mass killings of jews by gas chambers was a British propaganda lie. He talks about this around 26 minutes into the video

David Irving reveals gas chamber lie

Irving is a liar and a fraud. He is also a holocaust denier, as was proved in a court of law. Anything that dribbles out of that man's mouth is deeply, deeply suspect.

Firstly, the concentration camps provided free labour, slaves in fact, which enabled rapid expansion of the new German Reich, and facilitated the civil engineering projects, which otherwise could not have been accomplished in such short shrift, if the entire workforce had had to be paid. Similarly, it aided in the rapid growth of the machinery needed to create the massive military force. Germany would not have been ready for war had it not had slave labour to lighten the expense of such massive, rapid growth.

Some concentration camps had a labor force some did not. Some death camps had a labor force some did not.

Rearmament began in 1931 before the Fuhrer took the position of Chancellor. Saying that slave labor was used for the armament expansion up to 1939 is incorrect. The Fuhrer's main goal was to reduce unemployment by putting displaced German workers in factory's that made both household goods and precursors to weapons production. The 'peoples car' Volkswagen would be an example of this as it's assembly could quickly be converted to tank production.

Slave labor played no part whatsoever in the armaments buildup to the annexation of the Rhineland, the facilitation of Czechoslovakia or the invasion of Poland. Poles were determined to be an inferior work force and were dealt with accordingly. The French provided the first workers to come to the Reich as a paid work force however these conditions deteriorated with the buildup to, and afterwards Barbarossa.

Originally posted by Pervius
I don't think there's anyone on the planet who would disagree that it was Hitler's revoking peoples rights to firearms that led to so many disabled German, Jews, and other people getting mass slaughtered.

Actually you will find that most historians would disagree with that opinion. Weimar Germany had very strict gun control (anyone familiar with post WW1-German history will understand the need) and therefore the Nazis never really had the problem of dealing with internal resistance that was well armed. They did lightly tweak the gun laws in 1938, but it's rather hard to prove that those small changes had any practical effect at all. Anyway, Hitler never revoked the rights of Germans to own firearms - that's just another one of those half-truths which abound in this thread.

It is true, though, that the Nazis used the police apparatus to confiscate guns on an ad-hoc basis. From the sources, it is clear that they selectively disarmed certain people without changing any laws or implementing a large scale, systematic program for gun confiscation. These ad-hoc measures have never been quantified (they can't be), but judging from availavble materials (Berlin police, f.e.) it is clear that they did not amount to a systematic program.

General comment, not adressed to you:

There's much more to pick apart in this thread. Thing is, it has been done over and over and over. Almost every point mentioned in this thread has been debunked or further contextualized in older threads. The only positive thing that I can take from this is the fact that nowadays these threads are way more tongue-in-cheek.. I remember the period when threads about the Holocaust usually started with "HItler was the greatest politican ever" (D'oh!!)