Schumer Ex-Pat Tax Bill Would Banish Facebook Founder Saverin From U.S. Forever

First of all, it must be made clear to ALL what taxes are for.

It is to redistribute wealth to share amongst citizens, so that none gets left behind, and everyone gets a chance and opportunity in life. Adam Smith knew that not everyone will have draw the same salary under a pure form of Capitalism, because some will be paid less, and some paid more. Thus, taxes are drawn from those who have more to help those with less and help fund future generations, such as building of roads, school, hospital, rails, education, healthcare, security, etc, etc.

Taxation with representation is NOT slavery. In US, everyone has the right to vote and excercise that right freely to do so or not to do so. It is one's free choice. It is only when one is taxed and yet not allowed to voice out concerns will then be one a slave.

Some claimed that they had paid taxes to the dollar every year, and when they leave the nation for another, they are free to do so. Technically, it is right. But is it morally right?

One can claim that he paid taxes, or his parents paid taxes, but then could he or his parents alone PAY for all roads, schools, hospitals, healthcare, education, security, etc?

What he or his parents did pay is only a minute portion, out of the millions other within a civilised society that pooled their resources to build and evolve a nation.Without the past and the present generations paying their share, would there have been a USA?

And what more the blood and sacrifices of founding fathers, from the brilliant generals to the brave foot soldiers, in 1776 to create a new civilisation to free us all including this generations and more from the shackles of political and religious tyranny?. Can that debt ever be repaid?

Can we, when we benefitted from their sacrifices, made it well in life, stick a finger at that same society that nurtured us and flee to another country, leaving fellow citizens to their plights when help is needed by all?

It was the society that one benefits from. Of course, a free human is free to go where he wants. But can a free human continue to take from society without giving back?

And worse, there are many more wealthy who makes tax evasion a hobby, taking from society freely, benefitting from it, but never paying back or flee when the taxmen comes a'calling or when SHTF - they are only privatising profits but socialising debts - turning the middle class and poor into slaves for them. Best the middle classes wakes up now before being robbed further by thieves in suits & their insidious bootlickers hiding amongst us all.

Originally posted by 00nunya00
Just to play devil's advocate, what about the argument that the US and all of its tax-funded benefits like education were the reason this guy was able to make his money in the first place, and it's exactly that kind of money-before-country mindset that has fleeced small Americans of the returns they are due for their investment in the very infrastructure that made Facebook possible? How is it fair that this guy gets to go to school for over a decade on the backs of little guys, then has the opportunity to go to a really good college and take advantage of the amazing business opportunities this country has to offer, but gets to take all of his profits built on that foundation and screw the rest of us out of the EXACT POINT of why we invest in tax-funded programs in the first place? We don't invest in education so that we can make mediocre tax gains from those kids' salaries, we fund it so that we create a few millionaires who will one day give back what they received with interest. If we planned on taxes just from middle-class future workers, we'd have been broke a hundred years ago. Millionaires benefit from the system, and they should give back to the system, not take their ball and go home once the rules kick in.

He knew the capital gains laws when he started the company, so if he didn't like them he should have gone to Singapore to start Facebook and tried his luck there. It would be a flash in the pan if he had.

edit on 17-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

thank you for expressing my thoughts better than I could have

cheers

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101It is to redistribute wealth to share amongst citizens, so that none gets left behind, and everyone gets a chance and opportunity in life.

Someone else already pointed out that some of those who are living outside the US are those who are "redistributed to" (they are often on social security, and may find some minor work in another country), so that a blanket attempt to make sure that the "wealth is spread" will ultimately take away from those we're spreading the wealth to. There is no one-sizing with this solution, without destroying what our intent was.

reply to post by TheBandit795


I'm not against investing internationally without taxes---investment is a smaller-scale endeavor, even if the dollar figure is huge. *Starting a company* or *buying a company* is quite a different thing, and when you gain from the system of the country where your company is incorporated, but then expatriate *simply to avoid taxes* that changes the game. You're not a Chinese person investing in an American company, you're an American fleeing to China where you'll spend all of your American-earned money instead of spending it back into the American economy. If your citizenship is worth less to you than your money, then you give up the privilege of being able to invest in American companies at the tax-loophole rate.

If we encourage this kind of behavior by not putting some sort of deterrent in place, we'll be left with a tax base of nothing but the lowest earners, and a capital flood *out* of the country. It's the same thing as people coming *in* to this country without the respect of becoming a citizen, working under the table and taking money and benefits from the system and sending a ton of that money back home to where they came from, and not paying taxes on anything but what they buy. How's that working for us?

reply to post by 00nunya00

you're an American fleeing to China where you'll spend all of your American-earned money instead of spending it back into the American economy.

So?? That's up to the person to decide where and how he wants to spend his/her money. No one and no entity has the right to tell him/her where and how to spend it.

If your citizenship is worth less to you than your money,

IMO my citizenship should ALWAYS be worth less than my money. I am not loyal, nor will I be loyal to a government over my money and my family. Most governments have shown again and again that they do not have the best interests of their citizens at heart, so there is no reason or not much reason for loyalty.


The only deterrent in place would be a true free market system with no government interference. Where responsible, accountable and productive people will find it beneficial to work, produce and live in a country without having to be forced to provide for other people (who have no personal responsibility or accountability, who feel entitled to stuff without having to earn it first, who want to get paid just for existing, who think the world owes them a good life) against their will.

reply to post by TheBandit795


If you find a single country on Earth where all of your idealistic standards exist, let me know. And go ahead and go there, but don't expect America to suckle you and your wallet anymore. You can twist it into "commie socialism" all you want, but the fact is, countries are formed by the exact need to pool resources and efforts in order to advance everyone further. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the whole point of city-states. Like, since forever. If we had been libertarian-minded since the beginning, we never would have begun civilization, because we'd all be off in our *own* caves still, struggling to meet all the needs of our families (the smallest form of "socialism" by your standards).

reply to post by 00nunya00

If you find a single country on Earth where all of your idealistic standards exist, let me know.

The closest are those who are the highest on the Economic freedom ranking (with Hong Kong at #1 and Singapor at # 2):

www.heritage.org...

The U.S. was probably the highest during the first half of it's history where there was no income taxation.

but don't expect America to suckle you and your wallet anymore.

That has never happened before, and probably never will.

But anyway, nation states have existed in tons of forms, mainly in authoritarian and totalitarian forms during our history. If you think authoritarianism and state ism is necessary for us to survive and evolve as a species, then that's a whole other discussion.

IMO, if we have been libertarian-minded since the beginning, we would've been much further than we would be now. Just my opinion vs your opinion.

reply to post by TheBandit795


Please understand I meant the general "you" in my statement about America suckling "your" wallet, and not you yourself. Hard to convey that sometimes. I don't think you're actually expatriating to avoid taxes, so I'm arguing against "your" plan, not your actual life.

Originally posted by 00nunya00

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

Originally posted by 00nunya00
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

Yes, EXACTLY! They hate America so much, but they want to continue making money off it? Are you serious?

edit on 23-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

Why should it be about hating America instead of hating its' Government's policies? For example I love America and what the Constitution stands for, but I hate the people who pervert the Constitution and use their power to intimidate American citizens. I loved my former country where I was born and I still do, but I don't like what the people in power did to that country and it's citizens. Sometimes when you're one in a million who sees a problem developing and you're willing to make a change but can't because there's not enough of you, best thing you can do is get the hell out of dodge. Maybe you can work behind the scenes to make a change from a safe distance and return when the rest of the population has finally woken up to the abuse and is ready to fight for it's freedoms. Just because somebody chooses to leave the U.S. doesn't mean that person hates America, it just means they can't see eye to eye with the current administration. What's wrong with that? Supposedly we're free and should be able to pick up and go wherever we want without anyone holding us by a leash.

I absolutely understand about loving America but hating the current powers----that's why we work to change things, take to the streets if needed, because our country is worth fighting for. People who would rather just abandon it and give up and move somewhere else *and relinquish their citizenship* forfeit their right to suckle off its economic teat. You can leave all you want, live elsewhere for the rest of your life. That's fine. Renouncing your citizenship is a whole different level.

edit on 23-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

There are those who would die or sacrifice everything for what they believe in, and there are those who believe they have one life to live and they better live it to the best of their abilities. If that means not spending their lives and their families' lives being tortured physically or psychologically, so be it. Not everybody lives just for themselves. They want to see their kids grow up happy and successful (depending on how you define success). To let any Government or any number of people destroy your life happiness is your personal choice. You can stay despite the odds against you, or you can move on to greener pastures.

As for profiting from a country,... The Government has been profiting off your and my labor for many years. It's how they survive. YOU and I are their source of income! We entrust our money to them so that they can take it and put it where it is needed most. They don't do a good job with that money. They misuse it, start wars, kill innocent people and the list goes on. You make it sound as though we take advantage of the system, but in reality it is the system who is taking advantage of us and our ideas. If I don't like what that system is doing and I don't feel I am yet strong enough to change it, nobody has the right to tell me I can't go live somewhere else in the world. Once I check out of this system, I'm checked out for good. There is no reason I should have to keep paying taxes in the U.S. if I live in Singapore. I've paid my dues. How are they going to represent me and what good is their representation if their laws no longer affect me? I am not a slave. The U.S. Government does not OWN me, and therefore has no right to come after me once I decide to give up my U.S. citizenship....which also means I am giving up any "benefits" that might accompany U.S. citizenship.

reply to post by 2manyquestions


And that's the point, if you feel like America is torturing you or keeping you down, by all means, leave! No one is keeping you! You don't get to take your entire stash that you made right before you decided it was "torture" instead of "a good place to start and run a company and then take it public" and you certainly don't get to make tax-free money off your US-based company's profits----no matter where you live, if YOUR company is profiting off the US system, YOU are profiting off it too. Sorry, but that's taxed. No one is forcing you to keep your company in the US, or to retain ownership of your company. You can't have your tax-free cake and eat it too.

Originally posted by 00nunya00
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

And that's the point, if you feel like America is torturing you or keeping you down, by all means, leave! No one is keeping you! You don't get to take your entire stash that you made right before you decided it was "torture" instead of "a good place to start and run a company and then take it public"

The subject of this thread is a proposal of a law that simply refuses to let you go, and wishes to force you to continue to pay taxes to this country despite the fact that you want to give up your U.S. citizenship. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it sounds to me. I don't see anything wrong with keeping what you have earned, especially when you're living outside of this country and aren't benefiting from it's social programs, public roads, offices and so forth. Honestly... I don't understand this mentality that my earnings should belong to the American people or it's Government when I am no longer a citizen there. While I live here and while I benefit from tax-funded services, I am also paying my taxes. I put in my share while I live here, but I don't see why I should have to continue to pay those taxes when I am no longer living in the U.S. It makes no sense to me.

and you certainly don't get to make tax-free money off your US-based company's profits----no matter where you live, if YOUR company is profiting off the US system, YOU are profiting off it too. Sorry, but that's taxed. No one is forcing you to keep your company in the US, or to retain ownership of your company. You can't have your tax-free cake and eat it too.

edit on 31-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

What you're saying makes no sense. U.S.-based companies still have to pay taxes to the U.S. The company is not tax-exempt just because one of it's founders decided to live somewhere else in the world. Why should his personal earnings be taxed when he is not profiting from tax-funded services? Would you rather they move the company overseas and we lose jobs and the tax revenue here? The U.S. is not the only place in the world where starting or running a business is possible. I guess you'd be happier if all the productive members of our society just left the country rather than give them incentive to stay here. Instead of examining the way things work here and fixing what's wrong, you'd rather increase the pressure and punishment? This is how societies start dying out. One guy leaving is not the end of the world. When more people like him start leaving, I'm going to feel more concerned.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

Originally posted by 00nunya00
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

And that's the point, if you feel like America is torturing you or keeping you down, by all means, leave! No one is keeping you! You don't get to take your entire stash that you made right before you decided it was "torture" instead of "a good place to start and run a company and then take it public"

The subject of this thread is a proposal of a law that simply refuses to let you go, and wishes to force you to continue to pay taxes to this country despite the fact that you want to give up your U.S. citizenship. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it sounds to me.

You *are* wrong about that. This bill says "if you want to leave, STAY GONE." Doesn't sound like holding on to me, sounds like "fine, leave, but you don't get to screw us on your way out."

I don't see anything wrong with keeping what you have earned, especially when you're living outside of this country and aren't benefiting from it's social programs, public roads, offices and so forth. Honestly... I don't understand this mentality that my earnings should belong to the American people or it's Government when I am no longer a citizen there. While I live here and while I benefit from tax-funded services, I am also paying my taxes. I put in my share while I live here, but I don't see why I should have to continue to pay those taxes when I am no longer living in the U.S. It makes no sense to me.

The US isn't taxing money you make outside the US, it's taxing the money you make inside the US. Just because you live in Singapore (and pay taxes into *their* system with your *American* money) doesn't mean that your company which resides in the US (and DOES benefit from the tax-funded system) isn't making US money. Perhaps you don't get that part; this is only for people who are US citizens and then renounce their citizenship but want to retain ownership of their US-based company and make tax-free income off it. Not international investments or salaried income.

and you certainly don't get to make tax-free money off your US-based company's profits----no matter where you live, if YOUR company is profiting off the US system, YOU are profiting off it too. Sorry, but that's taxed. No one is forcing you to keep your company in the US, or to retain ownership of your company. You can't have your tax-free cake and eat it too.

edit on 31-5-2012 by 00nunya00 because: (no reason given)

What you're saying makes no sense. U.S.-based companies still have to pay taxes to the U.S. The company is not tax-exempt just because one of it's founders decided to live somewhere else in the world. Why should his personal earnings be taxed when he is not profiting from tax-funded services?

The owner is making his own profits off the company, which he skims from the overall profits. If he lived in the US, his company would pay corporate taxes and he would pay income taxes. He's not moving his company because despite the taxes, his company wouldn't do nearly as well in any other country in the world. He expatriates to avoid paying his personal income taxes. This bill closes the loophole of being able to keep your company in the US and *personally* benefit from everything it is afforded by our tax-funded system.

Would you rather they move the company overseas and we lose jobs and the tax revenue here? The U.S. is not the only place in the world where starting or running a business is possible. I guess you'd be happier if all the productive members of our society just left the country rather than give them incentive to stay here. Instead of examining the way things work here and fixing what's wrong, you'd rather increase the pressure and punishment?

Yes, I dare them to move their companies overseas and see how that works for them. I dare them to try to start a company in another country and see how well it does compared to a company started in the US. There's a really good reason that companies move their *workforces* overseas but keep their business incorporated in the US. America may be corrupt, but the US knows nothing about corruption when compared to a hell of a lot of other "first world" countries like Greece and China where nothing gets done without bribes.

I'd be happier if everyone knew from the get-go that you don't get to turn the game board over right when the other guy is about to get payback. I'd be happier if these p*ssy millionaires would use their new-found power and wealth to CHANGE the system instead of just quitting it and abandoning the rest of us. I'd be happy if we all started WORKING towards something instead of just running away all the damn time. Why should *I* care about changing the system when the millionaires DON'T?

Originally posted by 00nunya00
You *are* wrong about that. This bill says "if you want to leave, STAY GONE." Doesn't sound like holding on to me, sounds like "fine, leave, but you don't get to screw us on your way out."

The bill wants to punish people for leaving. Baring a person from returning to the U.S. simply because they want to live elsewhere in the world? Sounds like Communism. That's what the Communists did to those who wanted to leave, but first they made it very difficult to do so. What do they plan on doing if you want to come visit the U.S.? Will they arrest you at the airport or simply deny you entry? Sounds really mature to me.

Who are you screwing over by leaving the country and continuing to invest in American companies??? Would you rather they invested their money in China, Germany or France??? Like I said.... the companies they choose to keep inside the U.S. pay taxes, they provide jobs to people who pay taxes, and the profits they make, they invest in the U.S. stock market...investing in more American companies that pay more taxes and provide more jobs to Americans. These people are VALUABLE assets to this country. American citizens already benefit from them in more ways than most realize. They come up with and work toward ideas that provide jobs, tax revenue and in many cases useful products. Punishing them for being successful and driving them out is not the way to help our economy. Baring them from entering the country? Great.... they can't come back, buy houses and products to fill their houses with..... you know... the houses and products that Americans would have to create and earn a taxable income from.

The US isn't taxing money you make outside the US, it's taxing the money you make inside the US. Just because you live in Singapore (and pay taxes into *their* system with your *American* money) doesn't mean that your company which resides in the US (and DOES benefit from the tax-funded system) isn't making US money.

Let's examine current U.S. tax policy for a moment. You work hard and make $30,000 on top of your $250,000. The Government takes it's 30% share of that $280,000 which is about $84,000, and leaves you with about $196,000. You then take the extra $30,000 you made (that has already been taxed) and you decide to invest it in the stock market. The $30,000 grows to double or triple the size (if you're lucky) and you make an extra $60,000. The Government then decides it wants to take 20% (depending on what you're investing in) of those already taxed dollars from you, so effectively out of the $90,000 you have made, you are left with about $78,000, because they take about $12,000 from your capital gains in taxes. Your income is taxed twice. When people invest their money, they are investing in existing companies. The money they invest strengthens the economy. Sure it MIGHT prove profitable to them if they know what they're doing, but they are taking a risk and their money is taxed twice.

The owner is making his own profits off the company, which he skims from the overall profits. If he lived in the US, his company would pay corporate taxes and he would pay income taxes. He's not moving his company because despite the taxes, his company wouldn't do nearly as well in any other country in the world..
Yes, I dare them to move their companies overseas and see how that works for them. I dare them to try to start a company in another country and see how well it does compared to a company started in the US.

This myth that the U.S. is THE best country in the world to establish a business in needs to be dispelled quickly. Things are changing. Currently the U.S. rates as #4 on the list of business-friendly places. We have competition and we better realize it soon. With more regulations, more taxation and harsher punishments the U.S. might one day wake up to it's economic demise as many of the most productive members of society say good-bye.

I'd be happier if everyone knew from the get-go that you don't get to turn the game board over right when the other guy is about to get payback. I'd be happier if these p*ssy millionaires would use their new-found power and wealth to CHANGE the system instead of just quitting it and abandoning the rest of us. I'd be happy if we all started WORKING towards something instead of just running away all the damn time. Why should *I* care about changing the

You know what you have to realize? That not all millionaires are bad guys and they have a right to the money they earn. If you started a business, got rich over the years and decided to keep your company here (employing hundreds or thousands of people) but live elsewhere, I wouldn't begrudge you your fortune. I would be grateful for the existing contributions you have made to society and will continue to make by investing in this economy.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
The bill wants to punish people for leaving. Baring a person from returning to the U.S. simply because they want to live elsewhere in the world? Sounds like Communism.

But that's not what you argued; you argues that the bill was forcing people to stay----it doesn't. Bring out all the scary buzzwords you want, but it still is not, as you said, forcing anyone to stay.

Who are you screwing over by leaving the country and continuing to invest in American companies???

Again, we're not talking about those who choose to *live* abroad, we're talking about those who choose to * give up their citizenship*. Big difference between living abroad and renouncing your citizenship to avoid taxes.

Let's examine current U.S. tax policy for a moment.

Again, I'm not arguing the tax policy is great----it sucks! But the solution is not to just quit, the solution is to take your money and power and CHANGE the system, leaving it better than you found it. Not just leeching off it and then expelling yourself to go leech off another country. Just like with illegal immigration---we know the immigration system sucks, but the solution is not to just turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants and laws, the solution is to change the laws and enforce them.

This myth that the U.S. is THE best country in the world to establish a business in needs to be dispelled quickly. Things are changing. Currently the U.S. rates as #4 on the list of business-friendly places. We have competition and we better realize it soon. With more regulations, more taxation and harsher punishments the U.S. might one day wake up to it's economic demise as many of the most productive members of society say good-bye.

Didn't see anyone at Facebook complaining about that beforehand. Crying about it now is disingenuous at best.

You know what you have to realize? That not all millionaires are bad guys and they have a right to the money they earn.

And you know what you need to realize? You don't know my feelings or motivations any more than exactly what I've told you, and when you make the assumption that I hate all millionaires or think they're all bad guys, the straw man you throw up to fight against is as silly as your argument itself. If you say Obama has done something wrong, does that mean you hate all black guys? If you say Hillary Clinton is evil, does that mean you hate all women? Seriously, it's not harvest time yet, leave the straw in the barn.

Originally posted by 00nunya00
But that's not what you argued; you argues that the bill was forcing people to stay----it doesn't. Bring out all the scary buzzwords you want, but it still is not, as you said, forcing anyone to stay.

It forces you to decide between staying and leaving forever. What if you have family who live here and they wish to stay here? I suppose they could fly out to see you once in a while, but you wouldn't be able to visit them. In effect what these men want to do is say "Fine, you don't want to be one of us, you're never coming back". The only countries I've seen this in were the Communist countries. If you tried to come back they would arrest you for running away in the first place. Is that where we're heading now?

Again, we're not talking about those who choose to *live* abroad, we're talking about those who choose to * give up their citizenship*. Big difference between living abroad and renouncing your citizenship to avoid taxes.

Yes. I know we're talking about those giving up their U.S. citizenship. I don't understand the idea of punishing people for no longer wanting to be U.S. citizens (whatever their reasons). There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to keep the money you earn,... especially if you're still willing to invest that money in the American economy. I bet you anything that if this bill were to pass, those people would still be smart enough to make their millions elsewhere. The only people who'd truly lose out would be American citizens who would no longer be benefiting from those millionaires' investments.

Again, I'm not arguing the tax policy is great----it sucks! But the solution is not to just quit, the solution is to take your money and power and CHANGE the system, leaving it better than you found it.

I agree that it would be nice if people tried to change the system from the inside, but sometimes even the millionaires and billionaires are outnumbered either financially or politically. Money is great and sure helps a lot, but what kind of fortune would one person have to spend to change things around, and why should one person have to spend their fortune to make a change when so many millions of Americans refuse to lift a finger or even recognize that a change must be made?

Not just leeching off it and then expelling yourself to go leech off another country. Just like with illegal immigration---we know the immigration system sucks, but the solution is not to just turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants and laws, the solution is to change the laws and enforce them.

You're looking at it all wrong. These people are NOT leeches, they are PRODUCTIVE members of society and the Government leeches off them! The amount they have paid over the years in taxes have paid back any public schooling or assistance they might have received.That's why some are leaving the country, because they are sick and tired of the Government leeches. The Government continues to expand, raise taxes, invent new regulations, stifle the business environment and it is slowly killing us. When Communists took over my former country they drove out all the wealthy and productive people..calling them leeches. What happened after that is a nightmare come true. They destroyed all the wealth, killed the economy, and when people wanted to leave in droves, they put up electric fences and men with guns to keep people in. They invented lies about the West, how our country was the best one in the world to be in, because everyone outside our borders was starving to death. The American media has been singing a similar song lately,... about how it's so much worse everywhere else and the U.S. is the most prosperous place to be. I love the U.S. and I appreciate so much about this country, but I see through their bull$%&*.

Didn't see anyone at Facebook complaining about that beforehand. Crying about it now is disingenuous at best.

Complaining about what?

And you know what you need to realize? You don't know my feelings or motivations any more than exactly what I've told you, and when you make the assumption that I hate all millionaires or think they're all bad guys,...

Fair enough, I don't know your personal feelings. I can only judge by what I've read from you thus far. The opinion that Saverin is a leech because he wishes to give up his citizenship but would still like to invest in the American economy is telling me you're confused about some things. I'm not saying I know it all or that I'm never wrong, but to believe that Saverin is leeching off anything is silly to me. It's very likely that the amount of taxes he has been paying each year is enough to feed, clothe, house and entertain a family or two for a whole year. Add to that the taxes he pays on the products he purchases or the property taxes he pays within the U.S. and it adds up to a whole lot.

reply to post by 2manyquestions


Hey, look, I respect your side of the argument, and you've made some very good points. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, or any of them in full, but I see where you're coming from. And the reality is, it's probably somewhere more in the middle of where you and I are portraying it; we're not slaves, but they're not leeches; taxes suck but they also benefit us in many ways; America is a place of great opportunity and also great responsibility. I don't think it's a bad thing that you and I see this differently, but rather good that we can debate these issues intellectually.

You've put up a good argument, and I extend my hand to you in a gentlemen's draw. (I'm a chick, but whatever.) We fundamentally see things differently, and have a different sense of what's "fair", and that's okay. Kudos for the intellectual challenge.

Lmfao... left that cesspool back in 80 ... have neither an interest nor desire to return to it.. by far better quality of life abroad and sent them my passport in 2001 after 9/11 telling them where they can put it. get treated far better travelling on my japanese passport. meh .. let them pass their silly bill people will still leave that cesspool and its vile, evil , corrupt government with its oppressive and tyranical policies at home and abroad ... pfffffft I give them a two finger salute and laugh at them.