U.S Military video shows goats being hacked apart in training exercies

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Okay so I checked it out and still did not see a video or anything different than what you would see on a typical episode of Mythbusters when they do tests on dead pigs.

Can everyone here at least confirm that this stuff is UNconfirmed? Where are the laughing gaurdsmen? How do we know these animals were actually alive? This IS peta we are talking about here...

Sorry but until I actually see the video, I am unconvinced that there is any malicious intent to harm animals here.

Back in the day they used to use pigs in TCCC (Tactical Combat Casualty Care). Great experience, BTW ... there's no substitution for working on a sucking chest wound then a live subject, despite objections from PETA to the contrary. They were all pretty heavily sedated.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Cutting off a goats legs is not military training, there is nothing to learn from that unless they plan on dismembering humans...

edit on 19-4-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Unless, of course, you are training someone to stabilize a patient who has had a limb removed by an explosion ... then maybe there is a great deal to be learned.

reply to post by muse7


Everytime I hear about something like this part of my soul dies

reply to post by muse7


The US military also sticks baby pigs to keep alive during MOSQ for the 18D MOS among others.

So I guess my question is this: Do you believe that the training and lifesaving of Americans or Goats is more important?

Cause we could be using Humans instead of Animals...

This limited training activity is to prepare medics and front-line troops for treating catastrophic injuries in the field of battle, which was conveniently left out of the initial story to make it sound like typical solider training.

It is also done on human cadavers, pigs, cats, dogs, monkeys and other animals in the training of surgeons at all medical schools.

reply to post by muse7


Here's a better read up:

features.peta.org...

Note: the Navy and Airforce don't use animals for trauma training!!!

reply to post by bluemirage5


Bull they don't.

MAs in the Navy, or Master-at-Arms - Military Police are trained at Lackland AFB. As are a lot of military police in general.

Guess what they use in training? That's right folks, slaughtered animals to simulate gory scenes.

So yes the NAVY and the AIR FORCE both use animals in training.

Not to mention Air Force birds, Navy dolphins the list goes on and on, folks.

My wife was an MA in the Navy and I've got pictures of her covered in animal blood from a "training exercise."

reply to post by bluemirage5


I call malarkey, the USN most certianlt does use live animals.

reply to post by wWizard

Well, I suppose there is no replacing creativity and sheer initiative from people who know what they're doing and care about teaching it. I'd certainly say your instructors found a way far MORE effective than using live animals. If every commander running a program like this thought that way, there wouldn't be a problem or debate needed about what to do about it. Sounds like a valuable program you had there.

I ain't gonna say I am against the prevention of animal cruelty, but honestly, they're goats. Things like this honestly shouldn't be important when there are far worse things going on involving the deaths, hunger, or what have you of people.

They're just goats.

One thing that truly bothers me, that I've come to realize about these things later in life..

Military types try to hold the monopoly on "dealing with misery". They somehow think, that wounds and suffering on the battlefield are "the worst", and that "No one deals with this level of suffering." So in turn, it's okay to be brutal about it, and "Shut up because you know nothing." Me, if I wasn't an idiot, I'd look on this and say, "Why are these people being tricked into ritually sacrificing animals before they go to war... " But you know, sometimes I'm an idiot, so..

The only rationalizing I ever see, thus far.. is "You don't understand what it's like, these are real men dealing with real problems." That sort of thing.

Do you suppose ER technicians need to torture goats to learn how to deal with a triage of people screaming in brutal agony? Well gee, if my limbs were severed, I guess I'd go with the guy who pinched a goat's artery, while his instructor told him to "Stop being a pussy." Over a professional who was totally a pussy and didn't delight in torturing goats. You know, when men are men and all.

Please don't give me the spiel on "under fire", etc. Most medevac situations occur afterwards, and field dressing a lethargic goat isn't going to help you there... You don't see a live fire drill with these trainees during this "goat exercise" do you?

I could go on and on.. and I have another post from the closed thread... but, I just don't care.

Originally posted by thesungod
reply to post by muse7

 

So I guess my question is this: Do you believe that the training and lifesaving of Americans or Goats is more important?

Cause we could be using Humans instead of Animals..

My my, your logic is impressive sir!

Explanation: Flagged!

I posted what is posted below in this now closed thread!

Lesser of two evils principle [wiki]

The lesser of two evils principle (or lesser evil principle) is the idea in politics and political science that of two bad choices, one isn't as bad as the other and should be chosen over the one that is the greater threat.

Now for some comparison and contrast ...

OL turns nasty big bright BURNING spotlight onto the issue ...

American Soldier Steps on IED In Afghanistan (Graphic Head Cam Footage) October 2011 (by TheMaverick posted on 20-10-2011 @ 04:06 AM) [ATS Middle East Forum]

Originally posted by TheMaverick
American Soldier Steps on IED In Afghanistan

This video is just a short clip of the full gory version, of a American soldier, who steps on a IED in Afghanistan, and gets blown up pretty bad, and has half his face blown off, foot and most of his arm, it's filmed by a another soldiers head cam, and highlights how dangerous it is in Afghanistan, and why its time to end the pointless conflict, and any young person, who wants to join the military, should watch this, to show, its not a Xbox game, this is real dangerous sh!t.

(WARNING Graphic)
[REDACTED BY OL AS YOUTUBE VID HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM YOUTUBE... pls access the full vid linked below in this quoted text]

Here is the full 30+ min version, on Michael Yon blog, were other marines, struggle to keep this poor guy alive, while they wait for a evac. WARNING VERY GRAPHIC.

Please see linked thread for full article. ALSO please note that the 'victim' of the IED was an afghan soldier and not an american. I bring that to your immediate attention so as to avoid confusion and pointless reply posts on that issue.

Now which is the lesser of the two evils ...

1] Using the goats [which are slated for destruction ... they are unfortunately doomed no matter what ] in a proffesional and dispassionate as can be manner, so as to teach a large number of young soldiers to literally harden the hell up and get on with the required job of saving somebodies life as is depicted in the graphic video linked in the above quoted text. The goats death MAY provide that required skillset.

OR ...

2] Not using these goats [which are still slated for immediate destruction ... remember they are 100% completely doomed and there is no saving them at all ok ] and these young soldiers [medics? ] may not have the skills or EXPERIENCE to deal proffesionally and dispassionately when the times comes to be johnny on the spot. The goats death would provide NOTHING of worth!

Personal Disclosure: Because the goats are Damned if you do, damned if you don't! [wiki]

heres the result of this training




hope soem more people realize that war is NOT like Call of Duty...

THIS IS NOT SURVIVAL TRAINING.

This is "goat lab". They use the goats for Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen and Coasties who are being trained at an advanced medical stage. Most people who go through goat lab will, at the end of their training course's entirety, qualify for either a PA certification or be at a minimum certified as paramedics; and often will have actual training to the level of doing minor surgery and other procedures such as sewing ripped or torn arteries, the treatment of protruding organs (such as intestines), trauma stabilization, etc, etc, etc.

The simulators which Oliver Stone addresses are beau coup dolla, are a real PITA to set up and take down, and if they don't work that training is wasted on what amounts to a rubber dummy.

Goat lab is mainly conducted for special operations personnel and others who might not be close to land, such as the Coast Guard.

The average military medic does not go through goat lab. This is a very specialized course. Yeah, they're joking around. So what?

These goats are not fit to be sold or eaten. They're anesthetized.

I bet Oliver Stone would flip his lid if he found out what shepherds do to a lamb/sheep/goat if it runs away: they hobble it. Essentially, a shepherd will break one of their legs and keep it in an enclosure while it heals. The loss of ability to be with the flock inculcates a desire to not run away again. And shepherds don't even use Ketamine every 5 to 10 minutes.
-------

You people claiming you've done survival training, i.e. SERE, and didn't do this: you expose yourself by lying in the sense that anyone who would do SERE knows about goat lab, bar none. But only medical personnel will go through this sort of training, and only those with attachment to USASOC or in an otherwise specialized situation such as CG, as I said.

If you people claiming intimate knowledge of this ritual animal slaughter actual had cred, you'd know this is nothing of the sort; you'd know that this isn't a bunch of retard grunts hacking up goats, but men training in a medical scenario to mimic real life issues. A simulator just doesn't do that, and the ones that approach this often become cost-prohibitive.

Originally posted by chuckk
This limited training activity is to prepare medics and front-line troops for treating catastrophic injuries in the field of battle, which was conveniently left out of the initial story to make it sound like typical solider training.

It is also done on human cadavers, pigs, cats, dogs, monkeys and other animals in the training of surgeons at all medical schools.

From what I understand this is advance catastrophic trauma training in SF units. I didnt get this kind of training in my CLS course though I wish I would have. I can see this sort of training being very useful down range.

Originally posted by Augustine62
THIS IS NOT SURVIVAL TRAINING.

If you people claiming intimate knowledge of this ritual animal slaughter actual had cred, you'd know this is nothing of the sort; you'd know that this isn't a bunch of retard grunts hacking up goats, but men training in a medical scenario to mimic real life issues. A simulator just doesn't do that, and the ones that approach this often become cost-prohibitive.

edit on 3-6-2012 by Augustine62 because: clarify

The big word, cost prohibitive. It seems nothing changes much just the scenario,

www.dailymail.co.uk...

"Cheaper than Chimpanzees" was the blurb then. So the greatest army in the world, with all the killing technology, (Baghdad video a good/bad example, Better examples are the recruiting ads) are having their medics come at you with bolt cutters or knives, or chainsaws or whatever comes to hand in an emergency, because they don't have the technology to stop you stepping on a mine in the first place..maybe that's cost prohibitive too. Somehow I think GI Joe is being suckered.

Originally posted by smurfy

Originally posted by Augustine62
THIS IS NOT SURVIVAL TRAINING.

If you people claiming intimate knowledge of this ritual animal slaughter actual had cred, you'd know this is nothing of the sort; you'd know that this isn't a bunch of retard grunts hacking up goats, but men training in a medical scenario to mimic real life issues. A simulator just doesn't do that, and the ones that approach this often become cost-prohibitive.

edit on 3-6-2012 by Augustine62 because: clarify

The big word, cost prohibitive. It seems nothing changes much just the scenario,

www.dailymail.co.uk...

"Cheaper than Chimpanzees" was the blurb then. So the greatest army in the world, with all the killing technology, (Baghdad video a good/bad example, Better examples are the recruiting ads) are having their medics come at you with bolt cutters or knives, or chainsaws or whatever comes to hand in an emergency, because they don't have the technology to stop you stepping on a mine in the first place..maybe that's cost prohibitive too. Somehow I think GI Joe is being suckered.

Britain has done tests like that as well on people. Many countries have. It has nothing to do with this.

These bolt cutters and other injuries they are causing is to simulate severed limbs, which can often have fractured bone. The medics don't use those things on people. They need to make precise injury profiles on these goats to have consistent training which meshes with known overseas trauma.

Above and below joint amputation, effect of trauma on hr/bp, etc, etc.

You get varied and real life feedback. Simulators are canned. These guys are practicing a huge swath of medical procedures and monitoring and recording, fixing and bandaging, multiple injury types and sites. They also do a clinical bit often in Baltimore or maybe D.C., depending. They ride along with ambulances and work in ER's. This training goes directly into actually helping US citizens on a consistent basis in a rotational schedule, and in the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods east coast big cities have to offer.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These goats are going to die anyway and they are not subject to this lab without anesthesia.