Microsoft Sues Comet Over Counterfeit CDs

Originally posted by charlyv
The problem is not with Microsoft, it is the PC vendor that should be supplying that set of backup disks. Microsoft can no longer provide a generic bootable CD/DVD that can boot and install the mariad of motherboard, bios and SATA disk drivers that are found on hardware today. This is why the systems are pre-built, as the vendor has the capability of injecting their specific drivers into the installation. Since floppy drives are no longer sold with most systems, users have no way of providing the drivers if the installation notices that they are not present and asks for them. During the low level boot process, the only devices seen are IDE, Some SATA, USB and floppy disks, however Windows will not accept the drivers from any other device except A: or B:

Huh? What are you on about? I have built my own PC's for nigh on ten years and very time, I slap the components together, stick the OEM Windows disk in the DVD drive, change the boot sequence on the BIOS to launch from disk and away I go. Windows comes with a variety of well known and generic drivers for almost all conceivable devices and if not, will certainly allow you to get to a point where you can download the required drivers from the Web. Windows can even run my Nvidia 560 Ti OC without having to seperately download and install the correct drivers from Nvidia themselves, although I do of course update the drivers when install is complete.

You make it sound like PC's are all different and vendor specific, but they aren't. They are all built to the same standards and you will never find a configuration that won't work because Windows lacked the drivers. Like I said, it copntains enough generic drivers that will aloow the system to function and if you care enough, you can the download the correct drivers for your Motherboard BIOS, Graphics card etc.

I never understand why anyone buys a computer pre-built anyway. It's cheaper to build your own, is so simple a trained monkey could do it and then if your Windows does go tits up, you don't need a silly "recovery disk" because you have the Windows disk itself...

reply to post by ZeroUnlmtd


So I did not read that far before I posted.
I bet you have done that before as well. Besides I have had a long day.

reply to post by fixer1967


no doubt, happens to us all

Originally posted by charlyv
Microsoft can no longer provide a generic bootable CD/DVD that can boot and install the mariad of motherboard, bios and SATA disk drivers that are found on hardware today.

I haven't tried it with a "off the shelf" copy of Windows, but the DVDs (or download) that Microsoft gives (after a payment of 300€) to the companies that join their Action Pack Solution Provider programme install in a variety of computers from different manufacturers without any problem.

Obviously, after that you should look for more up to date drivers for all your hardware, but it's not really necessary, at least for any of the computers we use at my work place.

reply to post by stumason


I ran a data recovery lab for years. Please do not tell me that the out-of-box Windows CD's contain every possible driver for every system. I have built some very complex machines, and believe me, Windows would not load on many unless I built my own customized boot cd and placed the drivers with .inf's in the build so that the hardware installation of the install would not fail. Like I said, this is why pre-built systems are done by the vendors because customers could never do this.
You need experience to be able to tell this story the way it really is.

reply to post by charlyv


Go buy an OEM copy of Windows and put together a PC of whatever configuration you wish. It will work. Yes, certain functionality will be lacking, such as no DX10 or DX11 for your graphics card if you install Vista for example, but it will work. If you do install Vista though (following the example) and want Dx10/11, you just have to wait for the Windows update tool to get round to downloading SP2 and then wait for your Nvidia or Catylst control panel to tell you a newer driver is available, as they do as a default. Minimal effort or technical expertise required on the part of the user.

If you wish to then optimise your new PC, you can then download specific drivers rather than the generics that come with windows, or seeing as you will have the boxes and CD's for the hardware you built the system with, you can install specific drivers from them, all with easy to follow self-installers.

Now, you say complex systems won't do this and if your talking about a very bespoke, professional rig then that isn't something the ordinary home user is ever going to come across, so is a bit of a moot point.

I really couldn't give two hoots whether you ran a data recovery firm, worked for NASA or invented the microchip. What you were saying in the original post was wrong. Windows does have a vast library of generic drivers within it and you will be able to get a computer up onto it's feet with no fuss simply by running the Windows installer.

Actually, what you were saying in your post smacks of the usually nonsense you hear from "tech support" types which make a lot of problems sound much harder than they really are in order to bring in the bucks.

Any Joe Bloggs can put together a computer and you certainly don't need to believe the nonsense that only a vendor built PC will work because of drivers.... In actual fact, most vendor built PC's come with so much "free" and "extra" software they are invariably much slower and clunkier until you strip it all away.

Originally posted by charlyv
reply to post by stumason

 

I ran a data recovery lab for years. .

In the 80s/90s by the sounds of it....

If the only way was to put together machine specific builds then the OEM and consumer discs available would all be useless. When you install the OS it loads with basic drivers and then you load on the specific manufacturer's drivers for the various components in your system separately.
It's not the days of creating a boot floppy with MSCDEX.exe and the CD-ROM drivers anymore, optical drive support is at BIOS level - hence why you can boot off optical discs.

reply to post by stumason


I just explained to you that there are hardware configurations that crash the windows install. You have obviously not encountered situations like that, so if you do not believe me, then fine. I used to work for DEC, HP and Microsoft. I am a principal software engineer, I should know, but then again... some people believe that they know everything because they build things at home.

Microsoft will lose this court case.


The Windows 7 operating system CD will ONLY work on the computer it was made for.

Comet broke no laws. Even if they handed these CD's out on the street corner, nobody can use them.

Only the owner of the computer with the correct serial number in the Bios will be able to use the CD.


The ONLY way Comet could have created these CD's is if they used the computer with the correct serial number in the Bios to make a Recovery CD for the customer. They were providing a service, lawfully.

Originally posted by Pervius
The Windows 7 operating system CD will ONLY work on the computer it was made for.

I think this happened with XP and Vista systems.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Pervius
The Windows 7 operating system CD will ONLY work on the computer it was made for.

I think this happened with XP and Vista systems.

Same for Windows Vista. It was the first Operating System Microsoft made that will ONLY work on the motherboard with the correct Serial Number in the Bios.

Microsoft made this massive change after that Microsoft Professional corporate copy was passed around the entire planet.

You can't take someone else's Vista or Windows 7 and put it on your computer. Microsoft will lose this lawsuit.

Originally posted by Pervius
You can't take someone else's Vista or Windows 7 and put it on your computer. Microsoft will lose this lawsuit.

At work we have a DVD with Windows 7 (directly from Microsoft) that installs in any computer we try with no problems, so even if they have that system they are not using it on those DVDs they send to the companies that are part of their Action Pack subscription.

Even if Microsoft win, it will be a phyrric victory.

Comet are bankrupt and in administration seeking a buyer.

Originally posted by Pervius
You can't take someone else's Vista or Windows 7 and put it on your computer. Microsoft will lose this lawsuit.

Maybe not if you by a pre-built system that comes with a "recovery disk" or the like, but an OEM copy of Windows (some £100 cheaper than a retail version as well) can be used on up to 3 machines with no problem. I have used the same copy of Windows on my previous computer from 2009, my new computer I have built recently and my laptop with no issues...

Like I said before, it baffles me why anyone would spend money on a pre-built system when for the same money, one can build a better spec'd machine themselves inside of 2 hours.

My gaming rig, complete with a Quad core, 6GB RAM and a 560Ti OC 1GB graphics card cost me less than £700 and that included a 22inch HD monitor.

£700 at Comet for a pre built would get me a bag of spanners that they advertise with "4GB memory and 500GB hard drive.." (as if RAM and Hard drive space are the defining specs of a decent system) but come with a crap CPU and, if you're lucky, a naff graphics card, but a lot of fluff software you won't really need and will just slow the whole thing down.

Many pre built don't even come with a graphics card at all and you have to spend somewhere in the region of a grand to get a half decent machine you can game on.

Originally posted by charlyv
I just explained to you that there are hardware configurations that crash the windows install. You have obviously not encountered situations like that, so if you do not believe me, then fine. I used to work for DEC, HP and Microsoft. I am a principal software engineer, I should know, but then again... some people believe that they know everything because they build things at home.

I wasn't trying to get into a wang contest, but you seem to want to push it.

You're right, I have not encountered a single configuration that will crash a Windows install. But that is because all PC components are built to industry standards, in conjunction with Microsoft, who then put a library of drivers within the OS to run all but the most obscure of devices.

I would be interested to know what configuration you have come across that will crash a windows install and necessitate special boot disks or CD's being created.

Now, in order to put my wang on the table for comparison, I've worked in an engineering capacity for a major tech firm for almost ten years, Prior to that, I did an apprenticeship at a global firm where I got my Engineering degree. Where I work now, we have plenty of people who style themselves "Principle Engineers" simply by virtue of the fact they are the oldest or longest serving, but their technical ability isnearly always found wanting, to say the least, because ironically their age prevents them keeping pace with change.

Also, being a "software" guy is not the same as knowing about hardware and, in my experience, those who work higher up the "layers" tend to feel themselves superior, yet have little understanding of the actual hardware their stuff runs on and is beholden to. I may be a hobby builder at home, but I wouldn't use that as a stick to try and batter me into aquiesence. I am more than qualified in related fields to know what I am talking about.