Warhammer 40K - Horus Heresey discussion

I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresey series, 40K makes for some good light reading compared to the more high brow sci-fi.

Anyways, I have had one problem with the series soo far. Why does the Emperor, with his unmatched psychic might, not see the fractures forming in his legions? When Magnus warns the Emperor, why does he not heed his warning? How could Captains like Erebus or Typhon even get in the Emperors presence without his detecting their taint?

If some of the Primarchs and they're captains were already tainted by chaos, then how could the Emperor not detect this at Ullanor?

I love the novels but just hate how the all powerful Emperor, bane of chaos, cannot sense the taint in his legions.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresey series, 40K makes for some good light reading compared to the more high brow sci-fi.

Anyways, I have had one problem with the series soo far. Why does the Emperor, with his unmatched psychic might, not see the fractures forming in his legions? When Magnus warns the Emperor, why does he not heed his warning? How could Captains like Erebus or Typhon even get in the Emperors presence without his detecting their taint?

If some of the Primarchs and they're captains were already tainted by chaos, then how could the Emperor not detect this at Ullanor?

I love the novels but just hate how the all powerful Emperor, bane of chaos, cannot sense the taint in his legions.

Ullanor happened before the Emperor left the great crusade. The emperor denied that he was a god himself. Just because he had massive amounts of psychic power doesnt mean he was omniscient or omnipotent. He was blinded by his love for his sons, which is why Horus was able to kill him, because he refused to destroy his son. Mangnus disobeyed him after his decree on nikea after he forbid the use of psyker abilities, which is why he did not heed magnus' warning, and he was pissed because magnus destroyed the webway he discovered and was working towards rebuilding. If that webway had not been destroyed they would never have needed to use ships to go into the warp in order to take the crusade to the galaxy.

Love blinds you to the worst atrocities of those you love.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


Maybe he did know, but he also knew that it must come to pass to gain the ultimate victory for humanity. It is a good question though, considering how much Chaos seemed to gain that day.

I also love the books and game. Did you see the movie that was just produced (CGI)?

ultramarinesthemovie.com...

The last novel I read was Abnett's Brothers of The Snake

Glad to know there are other 40K fans on ATS, thanks.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Ullanor happened before the Emperor left the great crusade.

Ullanor was when the Emperor announced his leaving the crusade. Typhon, Erebus, Cruz, Mortarion, Lorgar were all already under the sway of chaos at that time and stood within his auora.

Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

Maybe he did know, but he also knew that it must come to pass to gain the ultimate victory for humanity. It is a good question though, considering how much Chaos seemed to gain that day.

I have thought along those lines too. Maybe he saw that future but was trying to negate it kinda like Paul Atredies in Dune. Choas cannot exist in his presense so I don't see how he couldn't know what was happening with his legions.

I also love the books and game. Did you see the movie that was just produced (CGI)?

ultramarinesthemovie.com...

Ya, it wasn't too bad. To be honest though I find the stoic Ultramarines a little stale. Love the Uriel Ventrus novels though.

Glad to know there are other 40K fans on ATS, thanks.

Me too and thanks for the response.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


might like this game?

www.youtube.com...

Either of you play the game?

When a friend revealed the world of model strategy gaming years ago I was soo excited I went out and bought 5000 points worth of Choas Marines.

One day I plan to add a large Space Marine army so I can play out the attack on the imperial palace. I don't get to play enough but boy, as a major fan of strategy games, is it fun.

Originally posted by rocket88
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

might like this game?

www.youtube.com...

I've looked at it but am not sure if I will buy it. I loved the first 2 Dawn of War games but a adventure style one is not high on my list.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
He was blinded by his love for his sons, which is why Horus was able to kill him, because he refused to destroy his son.

The Emperor is not dead, i figured this out a while ago. If you think about it, the emperor is the astranomicon, the beacon that guides mankind. Only his will is strong enough to project it throughout the warp. He does not power it but only his will projects it. You can confirm this here.

The Astronomicon

So knowing that, the fact that the astronomicon still functions means the Emperor is not completely dead.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
If that webway had not been destroyed they would never have needed to use ships to go into the warp in order to take the crusade to the galaxy.

Kinda, the webway does not connect to every planet but was built for the Eldar empire and their outposts around the galaxy. It would have significantly dropped the dependence for using warp travel but would not have eliminated it. It was interesting to read the Golden Throne's first use was for the webway but then used to maintain the Emperor's spirit.

awwww I find this thread the minute I have to go to work, I m 42 yo and I love the warhammer 40k novels and games ,

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
awwww I find this thread the minute I have to go to work, I m 42 yo and I love the warhammer 40k novels and games ,

Well come on back and lets discuss some 40K. I'm 30 so no shame in admitting we still play games.

I have read every Horus Heresy novel out to date (and everything else that has a marine in it) so I'll discuss anything, feel free to take the discussion anywhere you like.

Soo far in the series I have really enjoyed the Thousand Sons, Mechanicum, and Prospero Burns. Those would be my three favourite to date. I really feel sympathy for Magnus the Red, he was a truly loyal son who made only two mistakes and both from love. Truly tragic. The space wolves or as they called themselves back then, the Vlka Fenryka are simply awsome. One revelation in Prospero Burns is that Russ was used to sanction and probably kill the two missing primarchs.

Lorgar and Magnus dance on this subject a little but now we know those 2 Primarchs did live through they're scattering from Terra and were found. Whatever they did to make the Emperor release the unstoppable wolves against them still remains a mystery, but apparently Russ was designed to be the executioneer of wayward Primarchs.

I made a chaos army that worshipped the Emporer as a chaos god. The fluff I wrote reflected what I was reading about zoroaster and esoteric religions, that the creator was malign as well as benevolent, sort of like gnostic dualism.

Very nice, how many points worth did you build?

There is one fluff theory from way back called the "Star Child" theory. Basically the Emperor's soul has been growing in the warp thanks to the worship of the Imperium and his soul will eventually be reborn as a new chaos god. The thing is the Emperor never wanted to be a god so would he be vengeful towards mankind for making him one?

You're fluff may be correct one day.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


Just wanted to say that I have enjoyed coming back to this thread now and then to see what has been posted.

Does anyone remember back in the early 90s the original hard bound rule books? The material in those books was actually kind of disturbing and would freak me out a little if read late at night.

Your brief retelling of the 'star child' theory reminded me of that. I have heard the theory before but only the most core players ever repeat it. I bet you occasionally lapse in to 40K reveries like I do. Even though it is just a game the Warhammer guys have created probably the most compelling science fiction world ever.

Love that you love this game and that there are others here that are into it. Also considering the age revealed by the one member above I am guessing that I am the grandpa here; I started playing D+D when it was a spiral bound set of rules called Chainmail.

Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

Does anyone remember back in the early 90s the original hard bound rule books? The material in those books was actually kind of disturbing and would freak me out a little if read late at night.

I have the original fluff bible saved on my home pc. You are right that it is a little creepy. Its funny in the origional fluff I have the space marines are basically native americans with mohawks and guitar shaped bolters. They look like 70s rockers.

Your brief retelling of the 'star child' theory reminded me of that. I have heard the theory before but only the most core players ever repeat it. I bet you occasionally lapse in to 40K reveries like I do. Even though it is just a game the Warhammer guys have created probably the most compelling science fiction world ever.

Yes I do as a matter of fact. The vastness of warhammer 40k can leave you spinning sometimes but thats what I like about it. The Horus Heresy novels are written like histories from different perspectives. Some of the books vary on certain events and its like reading the same history from two different sources with different opinions. It provides alot of mystery and leaves you endlessly guessing what the truth is.

Love that you love this game and that there are others here that are into it. Also considering the age revealed by the one member above I am guessing that I am the grandpa here; I started playing D+D when it was a spiral bound set of rules called Chainmail.

I really don't have many people to discuss this stuff with so this thread has been great fun soo far. And yes you must be a old timer if you were playing with that rule set.

I recently finished reading The Outcast Dead and thought it was one of the best Heresy novels to date. I did find one part to be very interesting and I hope the author follows up on it in the future.

Basically the events of the book happen on Terra itself and a couple of the characters are Thunder Warriors. For those that haven't heard of them, the Thunder Warriors were the first gene-enhanced warriors the Emperor created to unify Terra. They were replaced by the Astrates and little is remembered of their history. It turns out the Thunder Warriors are much stronger in every way than the astrates but their gene's are unstable and break down over time eventualy ending in death. Was this an intentional design of the Emperor or, being his first creations, was it just an unforseen defect in a yet to be perfected science? The book leaves you begging to know but in typical Warhammer fashion we will probably never have a definitive answer.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


How could The Emperor (only a heretic would fail to capitalize His title!) not know that one or more of His Primarchs had become tainted by Chaos? Three possibilities spring to mind. I'll toss them out and see which one you like.

1) He didn't know, because the Ruinous Powers, while not strong enough to directly confront Him at this point, were strong enough to conceal the taint in the Primarchs.

2) He did know, but didn't believe it. Face it, most parents have 'blind spots' where their children are concerned. We've all seen parents who will watch their children raise fifty seven flavors of hell in a store, only to smile, laugh, and talk about 'their little angels'. The Emperor of Mankind wasn't that much different from the rest of us, and the Primarchs were His children.

3) He did know, but also knew (thanks to His immense psychic ability) that the Heresy and what came after *had* to happen (for whatever arcane reason).

My personal bet is #1, frankly. Even before He was entombed in the Golden Throne, The Emperor had a ruthless streak a kilometer wide (notice his treatment of the Thousand Sons and Prospero), so #2, while possible, doesn't seem likely. The only thing that *might* be beneficial from the Heresy would be forcing Humanity to be less dependent on the Emperor...but if He could foresee the Heresy, I can't believe He wouldn't also foresee that one of its effects would be His deification.

Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

Just wanted to say that I have enjoyed coming back to this thread now and then to see what has been posted.

Does anyone remember back in the early 90s the original hard bound rule books? The material in those books was actually kind of disturbing and would freak me out a little if read late at night.

You mean The Lost and the Damned, Slaves to Darkness, 'Ere We Go, and the Rogue Trader book? Proud owner of all of the above. Forget "was kind of disturbing'...parts of those books is *still* kind of disturbing.

I want to bump this thread, as a long-time hardcore Warhammer fan.
I just finished the Wordbearers Omnibus - so so so good!
Any other fans still out there?

Originally posted by CodyOutlaw
I want to bump this thread, as a long-time hardcore Warhammer fan.
I just finished the Wordbearers Omnibus - so so so good!
Any other fans still out there?

Huge 40k head here, I haven't read that Omnibus yet though I have the books all laying around. From what I understand Erebus is still hanging around in the 40k timeline? If so that sob is hard to kill.