Mathematics Is Wrong. Here's Why.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

Give me with -3 oranges...

,
i got 3 oranges = 3
i owe him 3 oranges = -3
but if you don't accept negative numbers, i believe you shouldn't accept positive number either.

my wallet got 40, and i want to buy this stuff that price around 60, i lack 20.

Originally posted by requireduser

Neither is infinity.

yeah, but 0 != infinity.
they are totally different.

0! is somehow found to = 1. This, to me, just further supports the idea that there is no such thing as zero.

0 and infinity are pretty much totally different. Infinity serves as a starting point but also maintains its connection with any finite definition as a formless background for which the definition exists. At the point of definition in reference to zero, the definition separates itself from its reference.

The appropriate question is, what does reality do? Does it come from zero and separate itself from its reference, or does it come from infinity and maintain its connection to its reference? Is there a God?

Not if it comes from zero there isn't. But of course you already know energy cannot be created or destroyed. So there you find your infinitely continuous existence, but that isn't infinity, that is everlasting energy. That is a finite definition. This energy has its roots in the only thing that can allow for this energy to exist and that is infinity. Especially in the way it does as being eternal. It is like saying you have one infinity times. And this equation was the first equation in the universe.

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

Give me with -3 oranges...

,
i got 3 oranges = 3
i owe him 3 oranges = -3
but if you don't accept negative numbers, i believe you shouldn't accept positive number either.

my wallet got 40, and i want to buy this stuff that price around 60, i lack 20.

If you only have 40 you can't pay 60... impossible
If you only have 5 oranges you can't give me 8... impossible
You cannot own -3 oranges or give me -3 oranges... impossible

Negative numbers are theoretical, you simply cannot have less than nothing.

Originally posted by TreadUpon
Yeah but infinite can be found between any 2 numbers...Infinite exists between the numbers 1 and 2 because the value between them can always be divided by 2 (for example).

once you define number 1 and 2, infinite doesn't exists anymore.

infinity exists only when you only define a number 1, but you haven't pick up "any possible" number after number 1.

I have been postulating over this for a few years now- and here's what I think.
There are actually two zeros, expressed as:

a) 0 / 1

and

b) 1 / 0

The first is 'relative zero', a place-holder for use in equations. The second is 'absolute zero', which doesn't exist. I don't subscribe to the standard of dividing by zero equalling infinity as I believe that it would just take an infinite amount of time to describe absolute zero. But zero and infinity are still distinct.

Also as infinity cannot exist in an instant, but would require all of time (which doesn't yet exist) compressed together, I think that space is not infinitely large itself either. They are connected after all as 'space-time'. So does it make sense that I think the universe is expanding at the rate of time?

Edit to clarify: I actually suspect that space isn't expanding but rather deepening.
But then I guess it would also have to be infinite in size from the start *shrug*.

Forgive me for being sarcastic here...but what...are you serious?

Suppose we look at this from a mathematical statistical point of view...now we have a curve and variables...right?

And underneath that curve are real statistical numbers...based on our Hindu Arabic numeration system anyway....equipped with zero...so why is this even an issue?

Ahhh...and the math pro's are going to work....a value is simple...a negative value is valid...and the math works...why bother trying to sound smarter than you really are...let's do some math without numbers if your going to interrupt the system with this nonsense....just saying!

This is interesting and it reminds me of a very valueble and powerful book. Its title is "The biography of zero :A dangerous idea", and I forgot who the author was. Anyway, he shares a bit of information about our past history dealing with zero and how the concept was foreign to greece. Blood was shed over the concept of zero. He concludes zero is poorly understood and its concepts exceed the boundaries of the english language.
For example we say things like, a babies first day when 24 hrs isn't even passed. Zero and infinity go hand and hand. I understand what you are trying to convey, but I cannot see where the issue lies. I wish I had the book to show you some of the formulas he created dealing with zero and infinity.
Please research the book, you will appreciate it, it is a rare gem.

but when the reference of everything that exists is traced back to its beginnings, and it is determined to not have a beginning and there was never an absolute nothing

I totally agree, zero is a concept or an instrument, that we use to understand time, in a human fashion. It really doesn't have a place outside of the human reality or measuring energy. I mean, it is very, very hard for some to even imagine the concept infinity, when everything we do is kind of linear based on life and death, beginning and end. Humans assume everything has a start and a finish.But energy is infinite. It is a difficult task for the tiny human consciousness to wrap around that concept. I hope I didn't go totally left with this but, if I did, just check out the book

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

Give me with -3 oranges...

,
i got 3 oranges = 3
i owe him 3 oranges = -3
but if you don't accept negative numbers, i believe you shouldn't accept positive number either.

my wallet got 40, and i want to buy this stuff that price around 60, i lack 20.

If you only have 40 you can't pay 60... impossible
If you only have 5 oranges you can't give me 8... impossible
You cannot own -3 oranges or give me -3 oranges... impossible

Negative numbers are theoretical, you simply cannot have less than nothing.

my wallet got 40, i know i can't pay 60, but i want to know how much should i withdraw from the bank in order for me to be able to purchase this stuff.

40 - 60 = -20 (from my view) i got 40, but this thing is 60, so, i lack 20.
60 - 40 = 20 (from the shopkeeper view) my stuff is 60, and u only got 40, so you need to get another 20.

negative & positive number exists because there is always a 2 views.

and this makes 0 really interesting

Originally posted by jerryznv
Forgive me for being sarcastic here...but what...are you serious?

Suppose we look at this from a mathematical statistical point of veiw...now we have a curve and variables...right?

And underneath that curve are real statistical numbers...based on our Hindu Aribic numeration system anyway....equipped with zero...so why is this even an issue?

Ahhh...and the math pro's are going to work....a value is simple...a negative value is valid...and the math works...why bother trying to sound smarter than you really are...let's do some math without numbers if your going to interupt the system with this nonsense....just saying!

Numbers, letters, words, language are all manmade entities defined by man whereas zero(nothing) and infinity(infinite) just are.

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

Give me with -3 oranges...

,
i got 3 oranges = 3
i owe him 3 oranges = -3
but if you don't accept negative numbers, i believe you shouldn't accept positive number either.

my wallet got 40, and i want to buy this stuff that price around 60, i lack 20.

If you only have 40 you can't pay 60... impossible
If you only have 5 oranges you can't give me 8... impossible
You cannot own -3 oranges or give me -3 oranges... impossible

Negative numbers are theoretical, you simply cannot have less than nothing.

my wallet got 40, i know i can't pay 60, but i want to know how much should i withdraw from the bank in order for me to be able to purchase this stuff.

40 - 60 = -20 (from my view) i got 40, but this thing is 60, so, i lack 20.
60 - 40 = 20 (from the shopkeeper view) my stuff is 60, and u only got 40, so you need to get another 20.

negative & positive number exists because there is always a 2 views.

and this makes 0 really interesting

To buy that item at 60 you have to pay 60... regardless of 20 here, 10 there, 30 in 3 weeks... to equal 60 you need 60... see what I mean?

You can have 10, 20, 40 whatever in your wallet, but do you have -30... no, it doesn't physically exist other that in a manmade contractual concept.

reply to post by Mister_Bit

Numbers, letters, words, language are all man made entities defined by man whereas zero(nothing) and infinity(infinite) just are.

And I will disagree...zero is a man made denomination...introduced by man and equated into mathematics by man...infinity...well another way of describing what man does not understand...but a man made expression all the same...would we agree on that?

reply to post by requireduser


but you dont pick you do them all at the same time.

Originally posted by jerryznv
reply to post by Mister_Bit

 

Numbers, letters, words, language are all man made entities defined by man whereas zero(nothing) and infinity(infinite) just are.

And I will disagree...zero is a man made denomination...introduced by man and equated into mathematics by man...infinity...well another way of describing what man does not understand...but a man made expression all the same...would we agree on that?

I'd agree only in the way that "infinity" or "zero" could just have easily been named "roger" or "geoffrey" the "physical" article ZERO is nothing.
Infinity in my opinion is equal to "more than nothing" and all the possible "physicals" that could be rather than something unknown and not understood.

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

This is a perfect example of how this kind of thinking doesn't correspond to the way we currently do things.

I think this kind of mathematics is appropriate for some of our endeavors but the infinity based mathematics is more appropriate for endeavors that need the math to be consistent with reality.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

0! is somehow found to = 1. This, to me, just further supports the idea that there is no such thing as zero.

n! = 1*2*3*...*(n-2)*(n-1)*n
So, n! = n*(n-1)!
For n = 1: 1! = 1*0!
1! = 1, and 1*0! = 0!
Therefore, 1 = 0!

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by requireduser

Now this is interesting because I don;t actually accept negative numbers...

i got 5 oranges, but i am suppose to give you 8 oranges, i owe you 3 oranges,

5 - 8 = -3

Give me with -3 oranges...

,
i got 3 oranges = 3
i owe him 3 oranges = -3
but if you don't accept negative numbers, i believe you shouldn't accept positive number either.

my wallet got 40, and i want to buy this stuff that price around 60, i lack 20.

If you only have 40 you can't pay 60... impossible
If you only have 5 oranges you can't give me 8... impossible
You cannot own -3 oranges or give me -3 oranges... impossible

Negative numbers are theoretical, you simply cannot have less than nothing.

my wallet got 40, i know i can't pay 60, but i want to know how much should i withdraw from the bank in order for me to be able to purchase this stuff.

40 - 60 = -20 (from my view) i got 40, but this thing is 60, so, i lack 20.
60 - 40 = 20 (from the shopkeeper view) my stuff is 60, and u only got 40, so you need to get another 20.

negative & positive number exists because there is always a 2 views.

and this makes 0 really interesting

To buy that item at 60 you have to pay 60... regardless of 20 here, 10 there, 30 in 3 weeks... to equal 60 you need 60... see what I mean?

You can have 10, 20, 40 whatever in your wallet, but do you have -30... no, it doesn't physically exist other that in a manmade contractual concept.

i see what you mean, but do you see what i mean?
i got 60 in my wallet, but inside this 60, the 40 is not mine, it is my friend money, he just temporarily put the 40 inside my wallet, yeah it is inside my wallet, but it is not my money.
so i can said i got 20, and his 40 which i represent with -40, because my wallet total money got to minus this 40 in order to get my own money.

i said, i got 20
i said, i got his 40

i said, i got 20
i said, i got -40

u see?

The only reason I assert the validity of infinity over zero is because zero is inconsistent with what we know about reality. If we trace the number zero back to its origins, it is a man-made tool. If we trace infinity back to its origins, it predates the big bang.

This is really irrefutable, the only problem now is how we could integrate this concept with our lives. It is irrefutable because zero is used as a starting point. It is also irrefutable that energy is neither created nor destroyed, so you always have 'not zero'. Therefore, in reality, the starting point 'zero' has no valid existence.

So why should our mathematics be inconsistent with reality? Because we said so.

reply to post by Mister_Bit

Infinity in my opinion is equal to "more than nothing" and all the possible "physicals" that could be rather than something unknown and not understood.

Well in that case...you have accomplished the same thing that mathematicians before you have accomplished...you have named something as you see it...and that is possibly the same product that your predecessors pointed to!

Congratulations...your opinion might change the mathematical world!

You have a point from a world view...but it does not change the equations that we have learned at all does it?

Originally posted by Doublemint
reply to post by requireduser

 

but you dont pick you do them all at the same time.

care to explain a little bit what you mean by do them all at the same time.

zero is a bridge, and we need this bridge.

It is also irrefutable that energy is neither created nor destroyed

assume everything is not created nor destroyed, but they keep on changing, thats why you got zero.

zero is valid because there are changes.