The plant that softens stone.

reply to post by skjalddis


I like your theory of using the juice to carve crystal, as in the 'crystal skulls' that are known in that area....Doing a bit of searching I came across this post from www.bio.net...

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On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 glh8180 at Msu.oscs.montana.edu wrote:

> In article , ae954 at lafn.org (richard nisbet) writes:
> >
> >I'm not a botanist, so please don't get in a snit over my
> >ignorance. I am working on a book on the Peruvian Stoneworks.
> >From the time of the Spanish Chroniclers (mid 1500's) there have
> >been theories and legends that the incredibly accurate fit of
> >their masonry was accomplished with a plant that had the
> >capability of softening stone.
> Yes, it is possible. Some plants that are ecologically adapted to life
> in rock crevices (and this is a common phenomenon among alpine plants) secrete
> acids to soften the rock. Thus they gain a greater foothold in their niche. It
> may well be possible that the Peruvians knew of a few such plants from
> observation. However, I apologize for not being able to give you any exact
> species as I do not know the flora of the Andes.

Most of the evidence for the Peruvian stoneworks strongly indicates that
they were made by excellent stonemasons. There is no evidence that plants
provided any additional assistence in this endeavor.


Jeff Baker
jbaker at anthro.arizona.edu
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...anyway thanks for your post, it was really fascinating!

The 2nd story, about the jar with the weird acidic liquid at the cemetary... it reminds me of the stories where murderes get rid of their victims' bodies by placing them in barrels of acid... Maybe the plant liquid served also as a way of funeral to melt a person into a jar.

Originally posted by reticledc
If it softens rock, then why not the bird's beaks?
Is it that specific that it will only soften rock?
Hmm..

Lemon juice (acidic) will etch limestone (basic), but not a birds beak. So, I can see this being done.

Maybe you should go for the teacher to find the knweledge....

My 2 Cents ...

Find the Bird ..... what bird is it ? should be the first question

Birds habitat - location - fauna and flora

Dead man can't talk - Living bird can teach you .

Originally posted by Lastone

Maybe you should go for the teacher to find the knweledge....

My 2 Cents ...

Find the Bird ..... what bird is it ? should be the first question

Birds habitat - location - fauna and flora

Dead man can't talk - Living bird can teach you .

Quote from article----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
davidpratt.info...

In an interview in 1983, Jorge A. Lira, a Catholic priest who was an expert in Andean folklore, said that he had rediscovered the ancient method of softening stone. According to a pre-Columbian legend the gods had given the Indians two gifts to enable them to build colossal architectural works such as Sacsayhuaman and Machu Picchu. The gifts were two plants with amazing properties. One of them was the coca plant, whose leaves enabled the workers to sustain the tremendous effort required. The other was a plant which, when mixed with other ingredients, turned hard stone into a malleable paste. Padre Lira said he had spent 14 years studying the legend and finally succeeded in identifying the plant in question, which he called ‘jotcha’. He carried out several experiments and, although he managed to soften solid rock, he could not reharden it, and therefore considered his experiments a failure.4 Aukanaw, an Argentine anthropologist of Mapuche origin, who died in 1994, related a tradition about a species of woodpecker known locally by such names as pitiwe, pite, and pitio; its scientific name is probably Colaptes pitius (Chilean flicker), which is found in Chile and Argentina, or Colaptes rupicola (Andean flicker), which is found in southern Ecuador, Peru, western Bolivia, and northern Argentina and Chile. If someone blocks the entrance to its nest with a piece of rock or iron it will fetch a rare plant, known as pito or pitu, and rub it against the obstacle, causing it to become weaker or dissolve. In Peru, above 4500 m, there is said to be a plant called kechuca which turns stone to jelly, and which the jakkacllopito bird uses to make its nest. A plant with similar properties that grows at even higher altitudes is known, among other things, as punco-punco; this may be Ephedra andina, which the Mapuche consider a medicinal plant.5

Could be this bird



Colaptes Rupicola

reply to post by skjalddis


This relates to shamanism in that their knowledge of the flora around them is remarkable, bordering on unbelievable.

When an anthropology undergrad at the U of A (rizona) this topic came up, as well as many other strange uses of plants and how the heck they knew about them (aside from the obvious and handy observation of nature, that is). One example that is hazy, so forgive me, was a plant that acted as a medicine after boiling it several times in lengthening progression, and at every juncture before its medicinal properties manifested it was a powerful neurotoxin. It begged the question how, or why, was this property discovered? Jokes about piles of dead shaman were made.

I recently read a book "The Cosmic Serpent" written in 1998 by Jeremy Narby that posited that the shamans got their knowledge exactly how they say they do, from taking ayahuasca, the mixture rich in '___', and asking the plant spirits.

The author goes on to try to explain this process by postulating that the faint light given off from DNA molecules is a form of communication, going on to posit intelligence in the molecule and evolution itself.

This theory has been around for a while (and forever from the native shaman's perspective), at least as far as the native shamans getting their info from taking drugs and talking to the plant spirits, but Narby took it a step further and thought up a physical transfer system. Leary also thought of DNA communication, as have many anonymous druggies and/or philosphers/fringe scientists, but rarely has it been presented so lucidly, or at least made less lunatic.

Anyway, it includes ancient knowledge and lost sciences, so I thought I'd throw it out there in this thread. It's a thought provoking read and fun, regardless of its percieved ultimate validity.

Here is the alleged bird :

(Chilean Flicker Colaptes pitius)



Photo source: www.mangoverde.com...

Both Hiram Bingham and Brian Fawcett speaks about the "Pito Bird", and this is how the locals know it in the eastern foothills of the Peruvian Andes and the jungles from Cusco to the north of the river area Perené And even is said to have been seen in Puno and Bolivia.

Other information gathered by researchers in the areas of archeology mysterious bird certainly speak Pitu bearing leaves at their peak of "grass Pito Pitu" that softens the stone. Thus, all agree in pointing to Pete as the bird of the secret herb of the Incas.

In the link provided here you'll also find information regarding the plant. Unfortunatelly, it's in spanish. It worth translate it if you have the time, it seems to be the most completed research I found.

www2.uah.es...

reply to post by Baddogma



Have you ever read about Rosicrucian and alchemical processes? Leaving a vial of water (obtained from morning dew) in heat for vastly extended periods of time, then letting it cool and reheat it, was one of the processes behind creating the Philosophers Stone.

From what you say, we have an alchemical process being employed by native shaman that appears to be related in process to what happened in the "old world".

This supports the idea that there was a "great man" teaching them. This great man seems to have imparted knowledge similar to Hermes.

Very interesting thread. Heard of it before, but always found a dead end. Good job on digging all this out so far, ATS.

interesting to say the least.....i have never heard of this til now and wonder if it still could be around...

Originally posted by danamae23
interesting to say the least...

..i have never heard of this til now and wonder if it still could be around...

Hopefully it is,but the knowledge of it is almost extinct as well as many other"secrets" of old.

When I read up the first story from OP I suspected that whatever procedure they used with this plant they were'nt supposed to be able to solidify back the limestone liquid. Then I continued reading up the thread until the report about the Catholic priest that confirmed my suspicion. Even if they did know how they would solidify large quantities of liquid limestone that does not mean we have discovered how they were able to build megalithic structures, since a block of liquid limestone if such a thing can exist would still weight the same as the solid one. We have yet to find how they were able to lift all that weight up, balance it and put it to place, along with the ways they used to design whatever they built. If we assume that in Egypt they used liquefied limestone then this would pose a greater mystery not just about on how they built the molds but why! Since it might be an enormous task to build a pyramid but it's an even greater one to build a mold for each stone that this pyramid is made off!

It seems much more logical that the limestone that used to be turned to liquid but that later would become dust since the acidic agent of the plant they used would evaporate and limestone would not have the ability to glue its dusty parts back in to a solid shape as it is expected without another type of agent that would act as a glue. That would explain also how the birds disposed the material of the liquid limestone from inside the cavities of rock they were grinding out with that mysterious plant. They probably were scrapping it off with their feet.

Now if this plant would be able to be used for grinding out rocks in forms of geometric shapes used as building blocks or cosmetic art or and even used to shape other materials like crystals as others speculated about the large crystal head of the Incas since that one doesn't reveal any signs of sharp instrument that miht had been used to curve it up, I also suspect that not only the Incas knew about plants that could be used in masonry but others as well. Maybe it was a widespread knowledge from the Americas to Europe and Middle east all the way to Asia. It just never made it to our present. It must have been one of the secrets of skilled builders, since as they say they had many.


edit to add:

If the pyramids as another poster claims were built from inside out as he claims, then it would mean that such plants and building practices not only were widespread but then we have to be prepared for the discoveries of billion of cubic feet of underground dwelling places all over the earth. I suspect also that many dwelling places are undiscovered in the Americas if they lay underground and could give some solutions to the problem where the ancient Americans went. They never went anywhere!

Very cool, it would make alot of sense with certain archeological finds

Maybe this explains the "Heel Stone" at Stonehenge.

famouswonders.com...

There are also lots of rocks with ancient hand prints indented into them. This plant could explain those too.

wwwdelivery.superstock.com...

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Yes Bigfurry, I have read about Rosicrucians and Alchemy, and yes, it all hints at scads of lost knowledge about technologies more connected to consciousness than matter (if any difference really exists, but I digress... as usual).

I firmly believe (or as firmly as a relativist can) that our future tech will be the same as our probable past tech, one using consciousness to communicate with "higher" intelligences and manipulate our environment... without the step of using our hands that is!

I recently reread The Morning of the Magicians and plan to explore Fulcanelli's "Mystery of the Cathedrals" so popular with esotericists... that is if I am still around physically after the chaos that many say is coming... sometimes I wish I could just go back to 9-5 materialism and be less curious about this seemingly whacky stuff... I'd have a nicer car, anyway : /

Originally posted by Baddogma
I recently read a book "The Cosmic Serpent" written in 1998 by Jeremy Narby that posited that the shamans got their knowledge exactly how they say they do, from taking ayahuasca, the mixture rich in '___', and asking the plant spirits.

Perhaps '___' containing plants are the "tree of knowledge" and not an apple tree?

Seems to me not only probable but likely that the secretion of the plant would react differently with the minerals in rock than with proteins in the bird's beak. Apparently conflicting info regarding the ph of this mysterious secretion - it was stated as alkali earlier in the thread - if this is so, then the birds' saliva (being acetic) would actually help neutralize the ingredient, making it less effective in rock melting if mixed. If it is acid, as stated later, then I doubt if the saliva would increase it's potency in any measurable way.

The bottle this stuff was stored in ( in the grave-robber story) could have been made out of organic material (bull's horn or something similar) that would not react to the ingredient, or at least lined with something on the inside that would protect the outer clay structure of the container. - I would suspect leaves from the plant itself, as they are naturally immune to the melting effect of the liquid ( sort of like the ALIEN's arteries carrying that highly acidic green blood that could melt thru the hull of the Nostromo)

...darn, I was doing well till that analogy. Oh well you see what I mean.

reply to post by skjalddis


EXCELLENT find! S&F&

Makes sense to me. Now, will review the thread and see if anyone has more information about this plant.

reply to post by skjalddis


This was solved decades ago....

caniyoumyime.com...

READ UP

Originally posted by spacebot
Even if they did know how they would solidify large quantities of liquid limestone that does not mean we have discovered how they were able to build megalithic structures, since a block of liquid limestone if such a thing can exist would still weight the same as the solid one. We have yet to find how they were able to lift all that weight up, balance it and put it to place, along with the ways they used to design whatever they built.

Maybe they took smaller portions of rock and mixed them together in place? I don't know how malleable this stuff gets, but I've seen some references to 'jelly' and some to 'clay'. I know that with a clay like substance, it would be easy to do this as you could just build the rock up and shape them in place and then harden them.

This reminds me of something I saw about two different rocks that had seemingly been melted together at a seam. I wish I could remember where I saw it so I could be more descriptive, but for the life of me I can't remember. It may have been on Ancient Aliens or some discovery show. Does anyone know the rocks that I'm talking about? I'm just wondering if this process could be attributed as an explanation for those rocks.

This also makes me wonder what all types this would work with. I hope we can find some info on experimentation with this stuff.

Great thread! I'm very intrigued!

Edit to add:

Originally posted by DONTBEIGNORANT
This was solved decades ago....

caniyoumyime.com...

AHA! Great post! Star for you!

Has anyone heard of lichen? It is a symbiotic moss that is known to produce an acidic rock dissolving compound.

Maybe the bird over time has found a way of pecking up the compound produced by the lichen, concentrating it and uses it to suit its needs. Just a thought.