Europe tells Britain to Justify itself over fingerprinting children in schools.

Europe tells Britain to Justify itself over fingerprinting children in schools.

w ww.telegraph.co.uk

The European Commission has demanded Britain justifies the widespread and routine fingerprinting of children in schools because of "significant concerns" that the policy breaks EU privacy laws.

(visit the link for the full news article)


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Opinions on this?...I can see how it makes things like lunch money accounts/library book tracking a bit easier to manage BUT the long term implications are actually quite scary...

I'm sure a few people will be of the opinion 'well, if you have nothing to hide and do nothing wrong...' but I don't think that's the point, our privacy and civil liberties are being taken away at an amazing rate and now they are starting on our children, what next? DNA samples at birth?

w ww.telegraph.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

This is what happens when the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. All they are doing is creating a database of criminal offenders before they actually become "offenders". I think they are trying to do something with their DNA too.

My children have moved beyond school age but one of my co-workers was horrified to find out her primary school children had both been finger printed (about three years ago)- WITHOUT HER PERMISSION. She was outraged and could see the future implications in an instant.

I had actually forgotten about this until I saw this thread. Well done for posting this.

Continue with a policy like that and it wouldn’t take too long to have the entire population on record. We are being treated as criminals, as guilty parties on masse.

reply to post by snowgirl


I have to say, with the large numbers of young offenders in this country, I have no complaint against fingerprinting. All that can be told from fingerprints is identity, so I don't see how it can really be abused (unless they go around fingerprinting non-crime scenes and rubbish in tips to work out who has been where and what they've been eating). Finding out who was at a crime-scene is only a good thing in my book.

(although finding out who was at a scene that the gov't wants covered up could be fairly unpleasant for the witnesses, I suppose...)

With DNA, I'd feel differently. If it turns out that a lot of abherrant behaviours are down to nature (i.e. genetic basis) rather than nurture, I'd be very uncomfortable with anyone having my complete DNA available for sequencing.

So I'd draw the line at DNA, but, seeing as they didn't get the chance to fingerprint me (Hah!), I'm not going to complain that they are fingerprinting schoolchildren.

reply to post by snowgirl

Half of them are utter prats these days, Fingerprinting will help keep tabs on some of the more arrogant youth

I have always taken exception to the acquiesence of the "If you've nothing to hide..." mentality.

First of all. I am uncertain how the UK, let alone the EU categorizes children. In the USA minor are "chattle" their freedoms and rights are an extension of the parent/guardian. In the US I feel that many, if not most, would consider biometrically identifying one's children cannot happen without the parents' consent.

Many of those who are inclined towards fearing the world may be ammenable to the idea of "protecting" their children this way, although I fail to see how it realistically "protects" them from anything.

My personal opinion is that the moment people are willing to be 'tagged' somehow, by the government or otherwise, they will have surrendered personal sovereignty. But that's just me.

I can only assume that the UK instituted this practice after some kind of debate in parliment, no? If the people want it, then so be it. (I won't deny that I wouldn't be one of those people.) Otherwise, the questions beg answering... exactly in whom are the people trusting with this singularly personal information about their children? Have they gotten to the point where all of their adult citizens have their prints "on file" somewhere? And once the child reaches adulthood, do they keep the prints somehwere?

I'm in Can I remember when I was in 1st, 2nd grade school brings you visit the police dept they show you around get a ride in the cop car then you get fingerprinted. At the time I didn't knew the implications neither did I feel the need to talk about it to my parents I just had a ride in a cop car life was good... I'm pretty sure they still do it this way, the silly thing is I don't remember it being told ahead, its just a thing where you arrive at school and your told you are having a day out....

Originally posted by TheWill
reply to post by snowgirl

 

I have to say, with the large numbers of young offenders in this country, I have no complaint against fingerprinting. All that can be told from fingerprints is identity, so I don't see how it can really be abused (unless they go around fingerprinting non-crime scenes and rubbish in tips to work out who has been where and what they've been eating). Finding out who was at a crime-scene is only a good thing in my book.

(although finding out who was at a scene that the gov't wants covered up could be fairly unpleasant for the witnesses, I suppose...)

With DNA, I'd feel differently. If it turns out that a lot of abherrant behaviours are down to nature (i.e. genetic basis) rather than nurture, I'd be very uncomfortable with anyone having my complete DNA available for sequencing.

So I'd draw the line at DNA, but, seeing as they didn't get the chance to fingerprint me (Hah!), I'm not going to complain that they are fingerprinting schoolchildren.

I suppose it all depends on how the definition of a 'crime scene' evolves in the coming years....soon peaceful protests may be outlawed and anyone found to be at one could, theoretically, be criminalised....what if you leave BEFORE you are arrested, you caused no trouble BUT your fingerprints were found to be on a placard....what we consider our rights today could well be considered crimes tomorrow...

reply to post by TheWill


!!!!Go Go Gadget Tin Foil Hat!!!!
Having copies of someones fingerprint - maybe you could replicate the fingerprint and put anyone in jail you deemed a threat? Just using a copy of the print on "any" crime scene that you so you wish. Seriously though, I am not sure if its as much as a threat as it is conditioning. Hence why they are doing it to children. Why not wait till they are older? Why when they are so young?

One cannot assume that 'government is always good'. History has proved time and time again that simply isn't the case. Privacy should be protected unless a law has been broken. We cannot allow yet more infrastructure put in place that, should a totalitarian government come to power, (never say never) they have the ability to target whoever they take a dislike to.

Freedom, or comparative freedom, was hard fought for and should not simply be given away.

As for dealing with the uncoof yoof - get to the root of the problem - don't slap a sticking plaster on a mortal wound.

Good grief - 20 years ago a friend of mine reckoned we'd all be barcoded. Technology has lept ahead of him since, but just in case - he had the barcode from a Garfield comic tatooed on his arm.

Thing is the id card scheme was a sidewinder. That technology has been overtaken too. They do not require them if they have your prints. The police already have portable readers. Allow every kid to be printed for no good reason and you'll never have the choice to carry a card or not. All your data - not just your criminal records - everything - will be available for anyone who wants to see it - just from your print.

reply to post by Maxmars


That's the problem, myself, as a parent, was not informed that this would happen...the first I heard about it was when my Daughter mentioned it in passing. The whole school had their prints taken for the purpose of 'lunch money account tracking'. No permission was sought, not even a mention of it in the newsletter from the school.

I don't even recall anything being said in the media about this sort of system coming into use....worrying!

reply to post by snowgirl


You do make a very good point, which I hadn't thought of (does it show? sic.) despite the recent reactions to the student protests etc. I now have a vision of V for Vendetta's dictatorship, presided over not by that creepy beardy guy, but by some horrific, stitched-together half-and-half version of Cameron and Clegg... ugh.

Again, though, I say "hah" that they missed me by several years

(Okay, if they're saying that it's about lunch money, then they really have no leg to stand on. That is ridiculous. I was assuming they were saying it was to help deal with juvenile delinquency, but lunch money? I recind my lack of concern)

reply to post by Bonified Ween


Now that's just creepy.

Very creepy.

Again, visions of V for Vendetta...

(And so young, because the offenders get younger every year. Petty crimes, mostly, but if they have a deterrant, maybe they'll think twice about robbing - what do the kids rob these days? Accessorize?)

Oh, crikey - as well as no choice about ID cards, anonymity of voters goes out of the window unless you wear gloves while filling out your ballot card.

My lack of concern has not just vanished, it has been replaced with serious concern, a touch of paranoia, and a fairly pressing urge to get to a restroom before more government initiatives do my bladder in.

reply to post by TheWill


LOL ...there never has been anonimity when you vote. Haven't you noticed the number they stamp on the back of your voting paper. The one that is the same as the number they put on the register when you tell them your name...and then they ask for your house number?

reply to post by christina-66


(Having only been eligible to vote once so far, I have not yet had much opportunity to notice what happens. For some reason I assumed that the point of going into the booths and not letting anyone else see what you were filling in was designed to keep it anonymous. I did notice that they asked for my house number, though)

minority report anyone?? At least that is what seems to be the direction our technology is headed. Stopping crime before crime happens. THE FUTURE IS COMING!! THE FUTURE IS COMING!!

Personally I feel this utterly wrong, and more akin to programming children that certain behaviour like taking biometric data without consent by the state is right and proper.

Why should children have their rights infringed when the same rules are not applied to adults.

Just absolutely outrageous!!



Just another Jackboot step towards total dominance of our rights. I hate when people say kids have no rights, all humans have rights, and fingerprinting is a violation of those rights!

I'm wondering if this happened to anyone else. When I was at a rural primary school in the early 90s we had a day where the local police came to talk to us and explain what they do. Part of this included taking all of our finger prints to show us how the process works(which at the time to a young child seemed fun), I've wondered as I got older if they then kept those records, or if it was simply done as a game to keep our interest? Does anyone else remember having their prints taken during a 'Police Day' at the school, and do you know what was done with those prints afterwards? I am a law abiding person so I have never found out if my prints are on record, as there has been no need for them, but with the raising of this topic it's got me questioning that old memory again.