Entheogens and Spirituality: safe or not??

I am very similar. I've always hated the idea of drugs.. anything that would have the power to alter your mind. I also gave in the same way you did with the same substance, however, I never felt any effect.. until my very last time that led to a very bad experience, making me quit ever since. I believe entheogens are wonderful, for spiritual development or not, but I don't know if I can handle such substances. Bring me to an amazon shaman and I will gladly face my fears..

reply to post by drkid


I don't dispute what you say, it's just that I don't think your testimony would make a very convincing argument to someone who thinks that when you ingest any "drug" it suddenly makes everything you experience "false." According to this person I suppose after you ingest aspirin, caffeine, nicotine or alcohol everything you experience is suddenly "false" as well. After all, those things contain chemicals that play on your brain chemistry in the same physical ways. If not for so many people being dependent on caffeine to get up to go to their 9 to 5's and keep the system well-oiled every day, I'm convinced someone would be trying to make it illegal too.

No, I believe everything you say and more is possible. I've had experiences where my friends and I could read what each other was thinking just by looking at each other, or even looking at each other for a second and turning away, you can still "feel" what they are thinking, doing and experiencing. It's amazing what's possible but what we are not allowed to investigate more seriously.

See this can be an honest coversation. Lets not turn it hostile.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by drkid

 

I don't dispute what you say, it's just that I don't think your testimony would make a very convincing argument to someone who thinks that when you ingest any "drug" it suddenly makes everything you experience "false." According to this person I suppose after you ingest aspirin, caffeine, nicotine or alcohol everything you experience is suddenly "false" as well. After all, those things contain chemicals that play on your brain chemistry in the same physical ways. If not for so many people being dependent on caffeine to get up to go to their 9 to 5's and keep the system well-oiled every day, I'm convinced someone would be trying to make it illegal too.

No, I believe everything you say and more is possible. I've had experiences where my friends and I could read what each other was thinking just by looking at each other, or even looking at each other for a second and turning away, you can still "feel" what they are thinking, doing and experiencing. It's amazing what's possible but what we are not allowed to investigate more seriously.

edit on 15-12-2010 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)

I'm agreeing with you! I am not the best at convincing others. Sometimes folks who have zero experience in the field might be in complete denial of the possibilities they have yet to encounter. I would say, this is a very beautiful thread! Has anyone here ever experienced Ego Depth before?

reply to post by strawberry91


Same as you, i used to be an extreme athesist.
But as soon as you really start experiencing life and stop being afraid of things thats when you really start to gain awareness of the world around you. Many religions discredit fear for a reason
I believe that many natural drugs actually tie into this, rastafarians take marijuana to see things but dont overdo it, and nostradamus the famous prophet used to get high on nutmeg to see the future.
I read somewhere that it realeased DHA or something like that and its what gives you these hallucinaations and its the same when you sleep so many athesits use this as their argument but these things wouldnt be in nature for no reason, maybe we are to use them too see past the illusion as you said and percieve the world as what it really is, as energy.

So really, i think that they arent all bad. But im not saying become a hardcore drug addict either, that will definately effect your spirituality.

S&F.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by KatieVA

 

To experience?

People with this attitude have a very skewed understanding of spiritual growth.

It doesnt happen through injestion of foreign substances. In fact, one can become attached and dependant on such substances.

Also, since when is the epitome of spiritual experience, experiencing 'other worlds'? It is actually completely irrelevant in the wider picture. Whats important is proper thought, speech and action. These are the 'garments of the soul'. And thats why were in this world. Were not here to smoke salvia and 'trip' out... Experiencing different dimensions of "consciousness" and reveling in the 'experience of it'. Thats not growth. thats just a differet form of addiction. Has no affect on anybody, but yourself; and even than, hardly. . Sure, exploration of these worlds may be necessary for some individuals; but thats only for the sake of research and a greater understanding. But the average person? There needs to be some self control and wisdom in this area. The point of life is spiritual growth; extension of self outwards towards others. In this world. In this dimension. Thats how you influence and affect others beside yourself..and in fact, its this interaction with others in a proper and conscientious manner which initiates higher levels of spiritual maturity.

Judaism strictly prohibits using drugs. As do many other spiritual traditions. Theres a very good and logical reason for that. It more than often impairs, and obstructs growth, than facilitates it.

In my opinion, yes - our purpose on this planet is to experience. All experiences, be they good or bad, open your mind, inspire your compassion and sensitivity and help us to understand the world and other people and why they do the things they do.

I don't believe that any single experience will prohibit anyone's "spiritual growth", drug induced experiences included. I think it's how you react to the experience and how you let it affect you.

I dabbled with a lot of weird and wonderful substances when I was younger - that's another experience I can tick off the list! How did it help my spiritual growth? Well now I know I won't become one of those narrow minded, judgemental idiots who, having never touched a mind altering substance in their life, think they have the right to judge each and every drug user in a negative light.

reply to post by KatieVA


Ive tried drugs. pretty much all of them. (aside from hard stuff). but most of the psychadelic ones, weed, salvia, mushrooms, lsd, ecstasy,....

Obviously its your philosophy which feels its ok. Alright. guess when youre reading terrence mckenna youre gonna find it hard to understand other views.

Im just saying there are many more spiritually mature people who are against their casual usage, than those who support it. So, youre view is in the minority. And theres a very solid reasoning for why that is.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by KatieVA

 

Ive tried drugs. pretty much all of them. (aside from hard stuff). but most of the psychadelic ones, weed, salvia, mushrooms, lsd, ecstasy,....

Obviously its your philosophy which feels its ok. Alright. guess when youre reading terrence mckenna youre gonna find it hard to understand other views.

Im just saying there are many more spiritually mature people who are against their casual usage, than those who support it. So, youre view is in the minority. And theres a very solid reasoning for why that is.

edit on 16-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

I'm rather embarrassed to admit I've not actually read any Terence Mckenna.

Could you please provide this "solid reasoning"?

Also - I never said I supported anything, you're making a lot of assumptions about me. I just said I don't think taking drugs will prohibit a person's "spiritual growth".

reply to post by KatieVA


What for? You'd just disagree with me. lol

I gave my reasoning in my earlier post. Drugs are just another form of attachment, first of all, to foreign things. And second of all, you want to build your spiritual awareness without the constant recourse to drugs, and substances. I want to know that even in my sober state i can experience divinity.

You seem to think divinity = percieving geometric forms or having psychadelic other worldly experiences; having conversations with demonic forces on the nature of reality etc.

Truth is, none of that is relavant to why were here. And why were in this world. Why is an important question, and drug usage doesnt address it, but instead distracts one from performing his mission in this world.

As i said earlier, life is about an extention of oneself outward, with other beings. This world differs with the higher worlds because of this one thing. Its known to all familiar with spiritual subjects that good and evil are far away from each other in the higher realms; that is, good is conceptually the opposite of evil. and therefore "away" from it. Only in this world do good and evil interact, and indeed, all humans are a composite of both properties. Ones job in this world is to shed, and remove this negative, evil aspect, and therefore perfect this lower world, to make it like the higher worlds. This in turn motivates the spiritual energies to interact with this world, as it becomes able to recieve it.

Those who condone drug usage, usally also have a liberal, 'do what thou wilt' mentality (maybe you read too much crowley). In anycase, its an impediment. It distracts one from objective reality, as it is, and has him/her absorbed in the world of fantasy, and the transcendent.

If you want to connect with those realities, meditation is a much more prefered method. it forces one to rely on his own resources. And also, theres something very pretnetious and ostentatious about those who turn to drugs. Theyre just obsessed with the experience; and not the process of transformation itself.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by KatieVA

 

What for? You'd just disagree with me. lol

I gave my reasoning in my earlier post. Drugs are just another form of attachment, first of all, to foreign things. And second of all, you want to build your spiritual awareness without the constant recourse to drugs, and substances. I want to know that even in my sober state i can experience divinity.

You seem to think divinity = percieving geometric forms or having psychadelic other worldly experiences; having conversations with demonic forces on the nature of reality etc.

Truth is, none of that is relavant to why were here. And why were in this world. Why is an important question, and drug usage doesnt address it, but instead distracts one from performing his mission in this world.

As i said earlier, life is about an extention of oneself outward, with other beings. This world differs with the higher worlds because of this one thing. Its known to all familiar with spiritual subjects that good and evil are far away from each other in the higher realms; that is, good is conceptually the opposite of evil. and therefore "away" from it. Only in this world do good and evil interact, and indeed, all humans are a composite of both properties. Ones job in this world is to shed, and remove this negative, evil aspect, and therefore perfect this lower world, to make it like the higher worlds. This in turn motivates the spiritual energies to interact with this world, as it becomes able to recieve it.

Those who condone drug usage, usally also have a liberal, 'do what thou wilt' mentality (maybe you read too much crowley). In anycase, its an impediment. It distracts one from objective reality, as it is, and has him/her absorbed in the world of fantasy, and the transcendent.

If you want to connect with those realities, meditation is a much more prefered method. it forces one to rely on his own resources. And also, theres something very pretnetious and ostentatious about those who turn to drugs. Theyre just obsessed with the experience; and not the process of transformation itself.

Ok, first off - if you're going to try to "argue someone down", please don't make up blatent bullcrap lies about things that they've said, it's very annoying.

"You seem to think divinity = percieving geometric forms or having psychadelic other worldly experiences; having conversations with demonic forces on the nature of reality etc."

Ermmmmm, do I? That's the first I've heard of it!

Anyway I'm going to leave it there because not only do you totally miunderstand my opinion on the matter, (yes, that's all it is - my opinion!! I don't proclaim that my personal views are FACTS the way you do - and even then you don't seem to be able to provide solid evidence to back up what you're saying) but you also seem to be hallucinating and seeing sentences there that I haven't actually written.

Here is some of my inner monologue on this issue:
For Entheogens:
1) One night after eating weed I had an amazing third eye experience. I felt an awareness that I have never felt before. The glimpse gave passion to my following and seeking of truth.
2) What is interesting is that everynight we go to this '___' place and don't remember.
3) Is listening to binaural and isochronic tones also a "drug" that changes the brains electrical and chemical circuitry?
4) In some ways even meditation could be considered a mind altering drug since based upon your body position, number of hours and time of day, you can alter your brain chemistry.
5) Everything is a drug: you take it into your body and it alters you.
6) Certain drugs can be useful to the body and mind. (psychotropic medications to create mind balance)
7) Drugs can show you the path, so you know what direction to head in without fear.
8) Shamans have used drugs since the beginning of time.
9) Modern culture and society are simply afraid of drugs because of ignorant ad campaigns.

Against Entheogens:
1) Drugs destroy the mind, while meditation teaches control of the mind.
2) There is no shortcut to any place worth going.
3) Do you want to live in the experience or only have a short term taste of it.
4) The attachment to drugs can inhibit further spiritual growth and can cause suffering.
5) Drugs can create unbalance in the brain, which the body will try to self regulate causing an equal and opposing counterbalance that cause negative outcomes.
6) Sometimes drugs can cause a loss of control of the self, which can create more suffering.
7) A good quote from Osho:

The modern mind is in much hurry. It wants instant methods for stopping the mind. Hence, drugs have appeal. Mm? -- you can force the mind to stop by using chemicals, drugs, but again you are being violent with the mechanism. It is not good. It is destructive. In this way you are not going to become a master. You may be able to stop the mind through the drugs, but then drugs will become your master -- you are not going to become the master. You have simply changed your bosses, and you have changed for the worse. Now the drugs will hold power over you, they will possess you; without them you will be nowhere.

Both For and Against:
1) A glimpse can open locked doors. Just remember the glimpse will not last.
2) A rock through a window opens the window.


Verdict: Each person must decide on their own. I must contemplate further.

Anyone else want to add to this list of for or against or both? Lets keep this thread going.

its basically not safe. the experience that is created will be sought after in an improper fashion and you will dissolve what remained of your spirituality if you pursue the gratification of the experiences gained from entheogens. they may be safe for your self, but they are dangerous to your spiritual community also; your differed perspective on events in your life will cause issues with whatever spiritual community you were a part of that did not promote the ingestion of entheogens.the ingestion of any substance that is not perceived as inept by society is also illegal in many cultures; this illegality lies within the realm of a judgmental system and effects the intake of entheogens.

it is true that i would say there is a soul extortion going on regarding the suppression of entheogens; yet i am reminded of a self revealed parable: not all the flowers in gods garden are supposed to shine in the day of light; thus not all things one can consume that another could by means of having the same faculties be necessarily safe for either.

reply to post by Ausar


I know for myself, sometimes the compromise of safety is worth it, at least my mind that seeks thinks so. All of life can be a gamble for safety. Driving a car is the most unsafe thing we do everyday, but the end justifies the means. Our life is a gamble.

Although im an athiest this is a great book i read growing up about a british soldier who found god from taking mushrooms:

Marijuana Time by Ken Lukowiak

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c3bd4e8311e1.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by KatieVA


I was making a general statement, based on the archetypal attraction of using psychadelics. I wasnt referring to you persay.

As for my points. Here, maybe point form will help.

• Drugs are just another form of attachment. The idea behind spirituality is to transcend the limited, and physical world. This is accomplished by focusing the mind and heart on the infinite. Casual drug usage where one experiences the above criteria, most often distracts, and misleads one from that purpose
  
• Building spiritual awareness should be done without the constant recourse to drugs, and substances. Again, this is an issue of attachment, and limitation.
  
• Drugs can be addictive, and thus leave one craving for 'more' of the experience, more of 'the high' of the perception they had while on it.
  
  Those are some of the main reasons why drugs are to be avoided. Again, i am in the majority. Whether its Eastern or western religious thought - this is the majority opinion. And the above points make it a reasonable opinion.

in an article by terrance mckenna, he describes a certain harmonic coherence between the entheogenic molecules and the mind. it is quite compex, and highly worth the read. i have had a direct experience of this type of resonance and the fact that he has described it in an emperically coherent way is astounding to me. it is because of this article that i currently find myself back at university studying biotechnology.

....When this understanding is applied to molecular ESR resonation, it remains essentially the same in principle. What the ESR tone of the psilocybin is heard via tryptamine antenna, it will strike a harmonic tone in the harmine complexes being metabolized within the system, causing its ESR to begin to resonate at a higher level. According to the principles of tonal physics, this will automatically cancel out the original tone, i.e., the psilocybin ESR, and cause the molecule to cease to vibrate; however, the ESR tone that sustains the molecular coherency is carried for a microsecond on the overtonal ESR of the harmine complex. This leaves the momentarily internal linkelectrically canceled and superconductive psilocybin suspended in a low energy electromagnetic field generated by the harmine ESR. In so doing, it will regain its original but now superconductivity amplified, ESR signal, which will permanently lock it into a superconductive state......

Electron Spin Resonance

Originally posted by dontreally
Im just saying there are many more spiritually mature people who are against their casual usage, than those who support it. So, youre view is in the minority. And theres a very solid reasoning for why that is.

Do you have any surveys that validate what you're saying?

And in these surveys/polls you must be basing your objective opinion upon, how is the terminology "spiritually mature" measured?

Originally posted by dontreally
I gave my reasoning in my earlier post. Drugs are just another form of attachment, first of all, to foreign things.

So is the need to preach to others a form of attachment, to what you perceive to be the best interest of others, right? I'm just saying someone who actually had no attachments would not care what someone else did with these substances. Shamans in indigenous cultures use them. There is no way you can pretend to be benefiting everyone, by wanting to deny everyone the right to make their own decisions. These kinds of things are not for everyone, but neither are they detrimental to everyone.

And second of all, you want to build your spiritual awareness without the constant recourse to drugs, and substances. I want to know that even in my sober state i can experience divinity.

If you must take such a naturalist attitude towards life, I have to wonder, do you also make all your own clothes and walk everywhere you go? Maybe you should also want to know that you can always get to wherever you need to go, even without a vehicle, or that you can always clothe yourself so as to be warm, even without a Gap or J.C. Penny.

But even those are bad examples, because many/most of these substances are naturally available and are no more crutches than consuming food to stay alive. You can't exist totally independently of everything else. Part of the spiritual journey must be realizing the way we relate to the rest of the universe, which is to say there IS a relation and we are not totally isolated beings.

As i said earlier, life is about an extention of oneself outward, with other beings.

Yet you want to cut off access to some of these beings by avoiding them completely? I don't understand how you reconcile these two views.

Its known to all familiar with spiritual subjects that good and evil are far away from each other in the higher realms

I consider myself fairly familiar with many traditions and "spiritual subjects" and I can't say I agree with this, either. Consult the Tao te Ching of Taoism for example, which says that good and evil don't really exist and are only relative to each other. Without good, evil could not exist. And without evil, good could not exist. In either case everything would just be a shade of some monotone "evilgood" or what you will, without an opposite to give it definition. Hinduism and Buddhism express this same thing. They say everything truly arises from "emptiness," or some middle ground that gives rise to both the perceptions of good and bad, and does not differentiate between them, and the same for all other pairs of opposites that define each other. This is called "duality." In the "highest realms" you could say there is only "singularity," no longer a difference between the pairs of opposites.

Here is one of the relevant Tao te Ching chapters illustrating what I am talking about:

2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

Those who condone drug usage, usally also have a liberal, 'do what thou wilt' mentality (maybe you read too much crowley).

So the "spiritually mature" people are also conservatives and never read Crowley, I take it. Just following along with what you're saying.

strawberry91, i have nothing against your original post, it is very valid

but how come when i try to add to the discussion in the alternative substance forum about my own personal use of marijuana with a medical license i get my posts deleted as being against ats rules and regulations? your original post has you describing your own personal use of illegal drugs, that is against rules and regulations here, so why is your post still up? and yet my experience, although legal at the time, when posted on ats is taken off?

again, i have nothing against your original post, it's a great topic i'd like to discuss here on ats, but it doesn't feel 'fair' that i can't add into the conversation my own personal legal/medicinal use and knowledge/experience from it, but you get to make a post describing what it's like to 'just get high',

i have to say to the ats mods, you guys really goofed up on that one, deny ignorance?????

reply to post by indigothefish

you get to make a post describing what it's like to 'just get high'

I don't think that's quite fair, since the OP is very specific about the spirituality aspect, which certainly seems to be in the right place.

If someone should post something like you said, about "just geting high", promoting and glorifying, then obviously the particular post should be a T & C, and the post censored/deleted. But not the whole thread.

I'm also not sure that ATS would be against legal medicine, even if it was cannabis related, but you may be getting close to lines which require judgment calls, in your case.

Obviously, Native American, and other cultural/traditional uses of various substances is totally legit.

And then again, your example could have been an instance of a Mod just making a judgment call that wasn't great. But I think they've made the right call on this thread, it is a valid topic from many angles.

Good luck on the medical front. I am totally supportive of that, and I also think that as the Baby Boomers age even more, and succumb to their (our...) host of aches and pains, we're going to start seeing more, not less.

JR