Israel's leader does not want to share Jerusalem

I just find it astonishing that the world cowers to a nation that is barely larger than New Jersey in land size.

Also astonishing is that the CIA has estimated that Israel has at least 75 nuclear warheads, yet nobody forces them to disclose if, how many, and what kind of nuclear weapons they possess.

Why do we protect this country, if the United States is supposedly a "secular" country? We don't respect any other's country's beliefs, and we demand that other countries that produce nuclear weapons cease and desist or disclose their capabilities-

reply to post by thegoodearth


Nukes aren't their only weapon. they have agents in the economic realm (bernanke) and the media realm (such as wolf blitzer) that gives them great power.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Again, Hamas have clearly stated they will agree to a two state solution as defined by international law. If Israel wanted peace they would agree to this, but they don't and have no reason to when they can simply keep on building on Palestinian land and bombing them whenever they kick up a fuss about it. And again, Hamas have not been around or in power since this all started, stop trying to imply they are the problem stopping a two state solution for Israel. Israel simply tries to create problems, change the goalposts and cloud the issue time and time again...for the simple reason that they have no leg to stand on, have no intention of allow Palestinians their right to self determination and their own state...Israel is the problem and has no excuse for it's actions. As for rocket attacks...what do you expect? Civilians being killed is always terrible whether it is Israel intentionally killing them or Hamas, but the international community has abandoned Palestine by not enforcing the law, they are treated like dirt, beaten down, humiliated, imprisoned,impoverished and occupied by Israel...it is simple desperation. Pitiful rocket attacks from gaza won't do much against one of the most advanced military powers in the world, but it's better than simply laying down and letting Israel have it's way with them in their view.

reply to post by Xcathdra


To the prime minister of Israel...
Do not divide Jerusalem and don't cave into
pressure from the U.S. government.

Xcathdra, while I'm in full agreement with most everything you write in ATS, it saddens me you fall for propaganda like we hear so often here. It surprises me, since you are more knowledgeable about the region than most people who only parrot propaganda.

Jerusalem has never been the capital city of anyone but Israel. The only reason Muslims decided to build two large and fancy mosques on the temple mount of all places, was for political reasons. That's right. Even hundreds of years ago, politics played a role. The mosques were not built where the Jewish Temple was placed – the most holy place for the Jewish people - accidentally. Please do some research on that.
When Muslims east of that said mosques prayer, they face their behinds to it, because they face Mecca and not Jerusalem. While you can claim they still consider it as a holly place of warship, Israel has never denied Muslims access to the temple mount, that is until the Intifadas (Two of them) started. They are free to warship what ever they want, just like Christians and other religions in Israel.

Further more, Jerusalem was never, I repeat, NEVER a capital city of Palestinians. Nowhere will you find any historical document or reference that ties Palestinians to Jerusalem. There was never a Palestinian entity of any kind, not political, no kingdom, no state, nothing. The creation of a people called Palestinians only begun in the 1960's. My very first thread in ATS, addressed that very mind boggling deception. You are welcome to look it up. Suffice to say that both Palestinian leaders and other Arab leaders said there is and never was a people called Palestinians.

Another thing, Israel did not occupy the west bank from “Palestinians”, but from Jordan, from the attacker. Why does it not surprise anyone that when Jordan was in charge of that land, there was no mention of “Palestinians”, or that “Palestinians” did not claim independence? The repeated lie that Israel stole the land, is exactly that – a lie. Do we need to go back to the partition plan and who rejected it by starting a war against the newly born Israel?

The Arab obsession with Jerusalem is just a phase in their 'stage doctrine' to destroy Israel. They said it numerous times in the past, now they say it more subtly or even hide it, but it's still their plan. Why do you think Mahmud Abbas told Arab leaders in the last Arab league that they will join a war against Israel, but they will not go to war alone? This is the kind of news the media prefers to sweep under the rug. It doesn't mean Arab nations changed their plans.

Of all things, you do realize that Jerusalem is in the very heart of Israel. The very center of it. What country in their right mind will all of the sudden agree to divide its own capital city. Can you imagine London 50 years from now with a Muslim population of lets say 30% being divided? New york ? Stockholm ? Oslo? A religious freedom is one thing. This is completely different, and no country in the world will ever agree to that.


One last thing. Do you know how many times the word Jerusalem is written in the Koran?
The answer is super easy, trust me.

To summarize this thread-

"Israel is evil!"
"No it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
"No it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
"No it isn't!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"

Until one side gets an aneurysm.

reply to post by Eliad


Evil? No. Israel is illegally occupying Palestine land and should retreat back in to it's own borders. The world agrees with this....pretty simple really.

reply to post by Solomons


I dig that.. It's just that this thread seems to be turning into something completely different..


And returning to the 67' borders isn't as easy as just evacuating everyone out. It'll happen, Israel isn't going to be left with much of the West bank.. Maybe 1 or 2% and Palestine is definitely going to get a piece of Israel..

Jerusalem is complicated, what do you expect, even if he did believe in somehow splitting Jerusalem for the greater good, saying it is political suicide for him and he'll never do it. Barak on the other hand might gain support from saying something like that.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


I always find the Indian argument counter productive, even more so since that mess started before the US was even a country. Further more, we have paid reparations to them, including deeding back over land to the tribes. Will it ever fix what occured in the past?

Nope - not one bit.

However, they are not locked into a reservation, unable to come and go. They run their own affairs independant of the state they are located in, and work directly with the FEderal Government on various issues. If they dont want to stay on their lands, they are free to move anywhere within the US as they are full citizens (in addition to being citizens of whatever group they belong to).

So while on its face I see why people want to make the correlation between the US and Native Americans vs. Palestinians and Israel.

If you want to use it as a road map on how things "could" work in the middle east, go for it.

reply to post by thegoodearth


We have been applying opressure on them to join the NPT. What else would you have us do?

reply to post by Solomons


Huh? Hamas is in power in the gaza Strip, the PA is in the West Bank and it has been like that since late 2006/early 2007 in their last elections. I am not making anything up, and if I were you I would suggest you do some more homework before making statements

reply to post by Solomons


This is exactly why Israel gets away with it. One rocket attack from Gaza or Southern Lebanon or the West Bank, that lands in a civilian area because they are not guided, and the media will spin it.

As I stated in my origional post, I would liek to see funding to Israel reduced massively until they get serious about fixing the situation there. I would like to see Arab countries cease their support to the more radical elements that do not want peace.

Israel should no more have to give back territory it won in 1967 than Texas and most of our western states should be given back to Mexico.

If you can't hold your land, especially in war, you lose it.

All through history.

Right and wrong don't even enter into it.

reply to post by gravitational


I am aware of the History of the region as well as the claims all sides make. My point is we are not getting anywhere, at all. We are chasing tails and thats it. Without any type of compromise what do we think is going to happen?

The cycle continues, and is going to get worse as people realize there is no end, which is where we are going to see some drastic actions being taken. Even then, its not going to solve the problem.

Israel wants to be recognized and wnats secured borders. Palestinians want their own state (which they rejected once before). There are extreme elements in both camps that run thei own agenda at the expense of the others in the area.

If we look back through history, we will see Jerusalam has been conqured by many different groups. Israel wasw willing to negotiate over the status of Jeruslam once before, and I dont see why we dont take another look at that proposal to see if any of it could work today.

What I am saying is the mindset that is current, in both camps, is the problem.

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by Eliad

 

Evil? No. Israel is illegally occupying Palestine land and should retreat back in to it's own borders. The world agrees with this....pretty simple really.

Since you like throwing this around, can you explain to me why you arent saying that Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are also illegally occupying Palestinian land?

I have asked this a few times, only to have it ignored by the people who scream illegal occupation. The "Palestinian Land" you so often refer to under occupation bu Israel, is also occupied by the nations I just listed?

How come you dont yell at them for the same? Unless your answers contains something along the lines of you hate jews and have no reasoin to bitch about the other countries illegally occupying Palestinian Land beause they are not jews, dont bother to answer.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
My heart goes out to the Palestinians. Everyone deserves to live in peace.

Israel needs to realize that this isn't just their land despite their religious beliefs.

I could not agree more. I know that there exists much confusion because of religion and patriotism, but maybe people will catch up and see the bigger picture.

Originally posted by FarArcher
Israel should no more have to give back territory it won in 1967 than Texas and most of our western states should be given back to Mexico.

If you can't hold your land, especially in war, you lose it.

All through history.

Right and wrong don't even enter into it.

I think people are misreading the intent of the thread. Im not talking about surrender, giving land back, or taking more. I am saying that there needs to be some type of comrpomise to end the mess. Without a compromise, we see where its going to end up. If a war is the ends to justify the means then so be it I guess.

Well i would just like to say that all nations of the world can F#$% O#$ as this world belongs to all people of this planet and the sooner people learn that borders were created to keep us divided the better off we will all be...The world does not belong to any one nation...It belongs to each and everyone of us...and we the people need to take it back and learn to all get along before we become slaves to one nation....That nation that wants to be the one is none Other than the state of Israel and it has been posturing for a great many years ...through the banking system of the Rothchilds...through the Maedia and through infiltration og goverments..America,Australia,Great Britain the Foreign relations council.The UN and many other methods.
So It is time to take this planet back and give it to the people....Don't worry the game is afoot...The Elite will lose as the underground movement is making plans.....Governments of the world know this and are doing everything they can to gain control....And Israel is the Center of this organization where they commit crimes and then go to Israel to live without fear of prosecution....be wary my friends.

reply to post by Xcathdra


What on earth are you talking about? IM talking about pre June 1967 borders, which you can quite easily find if you so care to. Hamas are the freely elected government of the Palestinian people, all talks should go through them, of course Israel does not like the will of the Palestinians, increasing the blockade dramatically when hamas won quite clearly showed that . And my comment was aimed at the fact that you keep talking about rocket attacks and the peace process as if they are mutually exclusive when history clearly shows that not to be the case, history shows that Israel is the only wall against peace. Hamas are simply a 'new' excuse for Israel.

Borders weren't "created" just to separate us.

Borders defined the specific territory conquered.

Period.

Ever hear of a place called Finland?

Why are some of you not demanding that Finland get it's territory back from Russia?

How about the Japanese Islands Russia took in WWII?

Mighty selective on who's land you want to be so generous with.