Interesting correlations between science and Torah

The ancients regarded the constellation Pleiades as having between 6 or 8 stars. They thought this because this was observable. The Rabbis however challenged this conentional belief and said there were about a 100 stars. Although the astronomical knowledge of the Talmudic sages was respected, this was one aspect which the other nations disagreed with.

The Hebrew word for Pleiades is Kimah. The Talmud commenting on its name says "why is it called Kimah? Because there are 'about 100' - K'Me'ah stars" The prefix kaf, can mean 'about', and Me'ah means 100. Therefore, kimah.

Amazingly, it turns out there are about 100 stars in the pleiades constellation..

How could the sages of the Talmud know this? They observed the same star cluster that the other peoples did. It wasnt until the modern era that weve ascertained the exact number of stars.....So..how could they have known??

Anyways. This will be a thread dedicated to amazing correspondences like this between the discoveries of science and the wisdom of Torah.

Sources
www.salemctr.com...
Kimah, Talmud

It could be as simple as a guess. How they would know, of course, is the question at hand. I am not going to jump to conclusion and say otherworldly beings passed on this knowledge but it is intriguing.

Our ancestors often surprise us with startling information that we thought we knew the correct answer to only to be left in awe and stand corrected that they had it right the entire time. Makes modern science seem arrogant.

Originally posted by PontiacWarrior
It could be as simple as a guess. How they would know, of course, is the question at hand. I am not going to jump to conclusion and say otherworldly beings passed on this knowledge but it is intriguing.

Our ancestors often surprise us with startling information that we thought we knew the correct answer to only to be left in awe and stand corrected that they had it right the entire time. Makes modern science seem arrogant.

Indeed..

Like, the very Hebrew word the Bible uses for pleiades, means 'about a hundred'. And so modern science has shown us. not just that, the Talmudic rabbis bothered to mention that there were a hundred stars, and not 6 or 8, like all peoples thought.

The wisdom is not from themselves; but derived from the Torah, and in Hebrew, which seems to speak of things in a very mystical way, beyond what humans are able to understand without the proper tools.

Another interesting example is from the Zohar (written about 2000 years ago) Zohar Chadash 12. says

"The Entire earth and those around it, spin round in a circle like a ball, both that at the bottom of the ball and those at the top. All G-ds creatures, wherever they live on the different parts of the ball, look different [in color and their features] because the air is different in each place, but they stand erect as all other human beings. Therefore, there are places in the world where, when some have light, others have darkness; when some have day, others have night. There is a place in the world where day is long and night is but a short time. It is is written " I acknowledge you, for i am wonderously and awesomely fashioned. Wonderous are your works and my soul knows it well)psalms 139.14) And this secret has been passed on by the men of wisdom - the wisdom of Torah"

This short, incisvie segment from the Zohar contains some very important pieces of information

• The world is shaped like a ball, and is not flat, as was understood by humankind
  
• The Earth is not fixed permanantly in one place, but spins and turns on its own axis
  
• Human beings live on both sides of the planet, top and bottom
  
• Humans live on one side of the globe, with their feet on the ground, in exactly the same way as they do on the other side. This points to an understanding of gravity
  
• When it is daytime on one side of the earth, it is not on the other side and vice versa
  
• There is a place where it is almost constantly light, and nighttime is very short (such as the arctic regions; due to the angel of the earth)
  
  
  
  edit on 10-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
  

How old is the Torah? From the short research I have done, there's some universal wisdom going on there. For example, The World Tree is in the Torah correct? Does it correlate to the Norse's Yggdrasil?

There is nothing more devastating to a scientist than being proven wrong, and years of work down the toilet for nothing. Yes they are very ignorant.

I read another quote from the Torah once - it was regarding the inclination of the Earth's axis, talking about the way that the Earth hangs 'over the void'. Will dig it out and post it here:

Job 26:7

"He spreads out the Northern skies over empty space. He hangs the Earth over nothing."


"...Northern skies..." = Northern Hemisphere of Earth
Seems to indicate the idea of the Earth's axial tilt.

And, of course, the nature of space (beyond the skies/atmosphere)... "over nothing = vacuum"

"...hangs the Earth..." = Suspended by gravitational effects (not clearly expressed by text, but perhaps to be inferred by the modern reader, giving evidence of a 'supernatural intelligence' at work)

All of it seems quite sophisticated for a text that's over 2500 years old... None of it could have been naturally known - at least according to our current perceptions of the scientific advancement of those people at that time.

reply to post by dontreally


Talmud is from around 1000BC?

Possibly the eldest telescope?

And besides, ancient Hebrews got strong influences from Chaldeans, who had very advanced in astronomy and mathemathics at those times.

I find this no oddity, sorry.

I think that even Sumerians possessed telescopes of somekind, because they were quite aware of our solar system... Babylonian Star Catalogues names Pleiades as MUL-MUL which some authorities translates as star cluster, others as star of stars (which I think is more appropriate).

-v

reply to post by v01i0


So your theory about the Sumerians having telescopes is an acceptable mainstream theory?

It's more sensible to take them at their word and believe their records - that 'advanced beings/ gods' visited from the stars and shared knowledge with them. Such an advanced society appearing from nothing - they say it was a gift from the 'gods'... Funny how their society seemed to crumble when the gods withdrew. Incidentally, why would such an advanced society spend so much time and effort to record a load of fairy stories as their legacy? If we were creating monuments for future generations to remember us by, would we not record the truth as we saw it?

You casually referenced the Chaldeans as having great astronomical knowledge. How did they get that knowledge?

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by dontreally

 

Talmud is from around 1000BC?

Possibly the eldest telescope?

And besides, ancient Hebrews got strong influences from Chaldeans, who had very advanced in astronomy and mathemathics at those times.

I find this no oddity, sorry.

I think that even Sumerians possessed telescopes of somekind, because they were quite aware of our solar system... Babylonian Star Catalogues names Pleiades as MUL-MUL which some authorities translates as star cluster, others as star of stars (which I think is more appropriate).

-v

edit on 11-12-2010 by v01i0 because: 2345

Umm, the mainstream view in ancient times was that pleiades consisted of 6 to 8 stars.

The Hebrew name for this star means 'about a hundred'. Thats the basis for the Talmud saying what it does.

And it turns out, there are about 100 stars in the pleiades star cluster.

reply to post by dontreally


Yeah, mainstream view was that which was visible for eye. But Chaldean/Babylonia/Sumerian magis surely knew better, because they were practicing astronomy and had equipment to do so.

But I don't want to downplay the role of Torah, because it seems that this knowledge the magis had, were conveyed in it also.

-v

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
You casually referenced the Chaldeans as having great astronomical knowledge. How did they get that knowledge?

How does anyone? Obviously by observation. Or do you rather think that they were instructed by some spiritual or alien beings? Well, I don't believe that. Besides, if you know anything about development of civilizations, Sumerian and other developed cultures didn't appear "from nothing". There is evidently certain path of "evolution" in their development also.

If you are gonna ask for "links", I don't bother to provide because the devolopent of cultures (both ancient and modern) are pretty common knowledge, at least of the field of cultural anthropology and archaelogy (I happen to represent the former discipline). You can study this even from wikipedia, I'd guess.

-v

Here is devastating, irrefutable evidence that correlates the sacred geometries of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, the Tantric Sri Yantra, the five Platonic solids, Plato's Lambda (from his Timaeus) and the Taoist I Ching table of 64 hexagrams with superstring theory, human DNA, the human skeleton and the seven scales (musical modes) used in the music of the Roman catholic Church:

smphillips.8m.com...

This HUGE body of correlations is so amazing and shatters the current scientific paradigm so much, don't even try to dismiss it. You will be only wasting your time because it is rigorous and based, I understand, upon 30 years of research.

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by dontreally

 

Yeah, mainstream view was that which was visible for eye. But Chaldean/Babylonia/Sumerian magis surely knew better, because they were practicing astronomy and had equipment to do so.

But I don't want to downplay the role of Torah, because it seems that this knowledge the magis had, were conveyed in it also.

-v

Than why would other cultures always display the pleiades as being 6 stars?

Why would there be a history of other peoples dismissing and rejecting this Talmudic statement?

Why are you trying to attribute this to another people?

Heres a Wikipedia article on Pleiadean folklore en.wikipedia.org...

They were often represented as the '7 sisters' in Greek and indian culture.

to postulate that this information must have come from another culture, is simply biased and unjustified. Other cultures disputed this Talmudic statement.

And the Talmud didnt take this knowledge from the babylonians. how could they? its a hebrew word!. Kimah. Used in the book of Amos and the book of Job. And Kimah means in Hebrew "about 100" K' Me'ah.

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

 

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
You casually referenced the Chaldeans as having great astronomical knowledge. How did they get that knowledge?

How does anyone? Obviously by observation. Or do you rather think that they were instructed by some spiritual or alien beings? Well, I don't believe that. Besides, if you know anything about development of civilizations, Sumerian and other developed cultures didn't appear "from nothing". There is evidently certain path of "evolution" in their development also.

If you are gonna ask for "links", I don't bother to provide because the devolopent of cultures (both ancient and modern) are pretty common knowledge, at least of the field of cultural anthropology and archaelogy (I happen to represent the former discipline). You can study this even from wikipedia, I'd guess.

-v

edit on 11-12-2010 by v01i0 because: 2345

There seems to be a massive gap between the Sumerians - which constitued the first civilization, and the cultures before it.

Im not a fan of Zecharia Sitchin, though he does bring up some interesting information regarding the Sumerian civilization. They sort of sprung up out of nowhere without any gradual evolution between themselves and an antecedent culture.

This is one of the enigmas of archeology and anthropology.

Its also of interest to note that the Hebrew calendar which is currently in its 5771 year, coincides with the beginnings of the sumerian civilization.

reply to post by dontreally


1st) Because during that time, great mass of the people were ignorant in the sense they couldn't read and write, and there weren't effective mass media and legend passed mainly from mouth to mouth as is with Qabalah also. So because of this, all kind of misconceptions and superstitions were rampart - pretty much alike how they are nowadays on the Interent

This could be the reason why large masses were unaware that Pleiadeans consists more than seven stars.

2nd) No there is no unexplanable cap between high cultures and hunter gatherer/small villages culture. The success of Babylonia, Sumeria and Egypt are mainly based on effective farming and irrigation systems that were employed so that the great majority of people could focus on other things, like culture and so on.

If you know about cultural transition, you can see that first high cultures began in area of Mesopotamia (this also accords with the postulated theory, that first intelligent humanoid came from Africa), quickly the information spread via travellers to the east, where people have always migrated, because they followed the sun, life giver (they probably tried to reach the birth place of sun). So you can notice slight temporal delay on the beginning of cultures further east you go from mesopotamia. And this is why american indian cultures are amongst the youngest.

The people moved towards North in Africa, as they were looking for more space, because in hunterer/gatherer cultures, hunting and gatheric areas are quite vast, so this kind of culture cannot support large populace. So they managed to reach mesopotamia (or around) when they invented artificial irrigation and that was the big bang of cultural developement.

This same trend occurs also in Asian high cultures and American high cultures. The farming and herding became quickly so efficient that it literally allowed people to concentrate on other things rather than surviving.

I know that they don't teach this stuff in school in great details, but this info is really available if people are willing to look and educate themselves, as goes with all the other information. But of course, it all boils down to the individuals themselves, which they are willing to do to find out. I just have happened to study cultural anthropology, so this all is pretty familiar for me.

-v

This, again, doesnt explain the fact that the Talmud only makes this assertion based on the Hebrew word for pleiades 'kimah' 'about a hundred'.

You have no rational explanation for it. It cant be derived from another culture, as its a Hebrew word.

And any student of mythology understands that other cultures repeatedly looked at the pleiades as s cluster of 7 stars ' 7 sisters'. This name was popular amongst the Indo-European high cultures (india, persia, and Greece)

As for that other information. Its interesting, and i respect your imput. But i still feel theres much about the Sumerians thats inexplicable. From what i remember reading, they had knowledge of mathematic, a written language, a system of government, sociology and many other things, that didnt have a antecedent; or not one that shows a gradual evolution from what precded it.

In Erich Neumans (a pupil of jungs ) 'history and origin of consciousness' he makes mention of the differences anthropologists and psychologists have discerned in isolated primitive tribes and how they relate with external reality. They basically lack a object subject separation in consciousness. With them, they conflate the physical reality they observe with the inner, experiential reality they experience. Theres therefore an identification of self with ones surroundings, and not a self conscious awareness of self as something intrinsically other than their environment. If you read the sociologists Lucien Levy Bruhls thesis "the "Soul" of the Primitive", which Jung often makes mention to, he referred to a phenomenon that he called 'participation mystique'. This is where the mind of the obervor is so identified with an external reality, through a sympathy between the physical and a inner reality (which we call symbolism) where a numinous connection occurs between the two. This in other words is the basis of the idea of 'magic'. Primitives are so immersed in this reality tha cases of 'Synchronicity' are completely normal to them.

Contrast this mentality with self consciousness. Self consciousness separates the mind, from the external physical reality it observes. It analyszes, and logically reflects on every phenomena it experiences. This is how the Sumerian civilization developed. This is why they were so much more sophisticated, and theologically centered, than previous cultures. This is what Neuman suggests in his book; and this is what the Hebrew calendar implies with its starting date circa 3771 BCE.

you have to atleast consider the plausibility of this assertion. It is not mine. It was suggested by a very respected Jungian psychologist. Many more anthropologists, ethnologist and mythologists have come to a similar conclusion. And indeed, the kabbalistic tradition teaches just that. Adam literally means ' i have blood'. And it implies a Self awareness of ones own existence (blood is a symbol for life). The ego didnt exist before, and indeed, primitive tribesman shown no signs of possesing indiviudal egos, but share a 'group ego', similar to how packs of animals function as if they were a single entity.

Anyways. If youd like we can talk about this through PM. Id like this thread to deal mainly with correlations between science and Torah. Im currently reading a book on this and i found it fascinating.

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally

You have no rational explanation for it. It cant be derived from another culture, as its a Hebrew word.

And any student of mythology understands that other cultures repeatedly looked at the pleiades as s cluster of 7 stars ' 7 sisters'. This name was popular amongst the Indo-European high cultures (india, persia, and Greece)

Hmm. Because 7 stars in Pleiades is clearly visible for naked eye, and because equipment like telescopes must've been quite rarity on those times and because much of the folks were illiterate and no effecient mass media was available, I think that is no oddity that mass culture of those times wasn't aware of the multidute of stars in Pleiades.

However, I think that sages or magus that were practicing astronomy were aware of this, and I think that their knowledge might've been passed in holy scriptures of those times. This is just a guess, but I think it is somewhat well based one.

I do not claim it to be truth, at least not objective one, but for me it certainly seems rational - more rational than the option that alien or spiritual beings were responsible for conveying this knowledge to human beings.

In the end, it is pretty hard to know for sure..

-v

Ughhh not this sort of thing again...

reply to post by dontreally


Ok, let me put it simply and concisely, and this applies to not just the claim you made here but to all claims of scientific correlation with Abrahamic or any other religious texts.

All biblical claims that are supposedly scientifically accurate fall into 1 or more of these categories:
1: No, it isn't accurate at all.
2: The claims are nowhere specific enough
3: There's nothing to show that this wasn't just a lucky guess or a poetic statement that's been misinterpreted.
4: It's not making the claim you're saying it makes.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Somewhat reckless reply in my opinion. Do you think that if Bible (or Torah in this particular case) says that tree is a tree, it is therefore somehow false claim?

-v

reply to post by v01i0


That was an extremely funny and poignant retort to a blinkered post. Kudos. I disagree with you on several aspects of your theories, but hey - we're all entitled to our own opinion and your theories are certainly rational. If the universe is anything like I suspect it to be, one fine day we'll get all the answers we were ever looking for.

Mainstream, atheistic, dogmatic academia is no less a religion than any other abused human institution - blinded by misinformation and control of twisted, greedy and selfish individuals. Knowledge of certain principles, and means by which to better our circumstance are certainly benefits of the scientific process - but the claims to absolute truth concerning our origins, and the supposed fallacy of the multitudinous mysteries (for which no proof can ever be forthcoming) - well it's plain arrogance, and all comes down to 'faith' in:

a) what the institution teaches to be true.
b) the limited nature of our perception and our ability to measure/ observe.