Former European leaders: Sanction Israel over settlement building

Wow this has been a crazy week for israel. After Palestine has been recognized by Uraguay, Argentina, France, and Brazil. This happens to them. Slowly but surely something is happening.

26 former top EU officials, including ex EU chief Solana and former German President Richard von Weizsacker, urge world powers to confront Jerusalem over its refusal to obey international law.

www.haaretz.com...

reply to post by mayabong


will never happen, Israel has to much influance over most euro countries
and has the holocaust card to play against Germany still

Certain Rabbis and Kabbalists in Israel have been predicting for awhile (atleast 6 years) that this is the agenda of Europe And America. Theyre going to 'sanction' Israel. Israel wont stop building in their country. And this will eventually lead to the Un sending troops into Israel to "keep the peace".

And if that happens, G-d help the Jews. They'll be prisoners in their own country while UN forces there to keep the "peace" (we know that means the exact opposite) will help the palestinians in butchering Jews.

Thats what it comes down to afterall.

In each generation in the Wests history, the Jews are targeted. The Holocaust people should know was not an isolated incident.

Eastern European Jews were severely persecuted from 1700s -1950s. Plenty of pograms, massacres of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews. A poignant case was when Sweden invaded Poland and the Swedish army killed some 40 thousand Jews in Uman.

Central Europes Jews have been persecuted since Roman times. too long to write

Than the crusades - which directly targeted Jews. Inquisitions. The pograms of the dark ages. Hadrians pillaging 985 towns and killing 650,000 Judeans/Jews. Than you have the Hellenistic persecution of Jews during selucid times (and thus the story of haunukah)

and than you got the incidents related in the bible, with the babylonians, persians and Egyptians...worst being the philistines (ie; palestinians)..

This is quite a longstanding issue. The Jews who are relatively innocent, and who have no record of oppressing any peoples and the hundreds if not thousands of events where thousands of Jews were killed. And yet they suffer. and people always believe the propaganda.

Originally posted by illusive man
reply to post by mayabong

 

will never happen, Israel has to much influance over most euro countries
and has the holocaust card to play against Germany still

Are you serious? The EU is not Israels friend

This is common knowledge.

Nobody's going to sanction Israel- If they hurt Israel, they hurt their only embassy in the middle east.. As far as politics go, you don't sanction allies, never.

Those leaders who are suggesting these sanctions are populistic cowards who would never have suggested these sanctions had they been in a position of power and are just trying to ride the wave of sympathy to Palestine..

Originally posted by dontreally
Certain Rabbis and Kabbalists in Israel have been predicting for awhile (atleast 6 years) that this is the agenda of Europe And America. Theyre going to 'sanction' Israel. Israel wont stop building in their country. And this will eventually lead to the Un sending troops into Israel to "keep the peace".

the bolded part made me spit my drink out
when its within their boarders set by the UN and not in the west bank and Gaza
then its their own country, right now Israel arent building within their boarders

no matter how much you want to paint that israel are building in israel
it will never stick

Originally posted by dontreally


And if that happens, G-d help the Jews. They'll be prisoners in their own country while UN forces there to keep the "peace" (we know that means the exact opposite) will help the palestinians in butchering Jews.

-----------------------

. The Jews who are relatively innocent, and who have no record of oppressing any peoples ........

Prisoners in their own country .......

The Jewish/Israeli people are no longer victims , they are a people with a modern technological State complete with nuclear weapons & with a suite of the most advanced conventional weapons systems.

The Palestinians are going to butcher the Jews

....chutzpah !

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by illusive man
reply to post by mayabong

 

will never happen, Israel has to much influance over most euro countries
and has the holocaust card to play against Germany still

Are you serious? The EU is not Israels friend

This is common knowledge.

That's news to me ........very, very good news. It's overdue that the world stood up to Israel's many breaches of international law.

Originally posted by Eliad


Those leaders who are suggesting these sanctions are populistic cowards who would never have suggested these sanctions had they been in a position of power and are just trying to ride the wave of sympathy to Palestine..

A personal knee jerk opinion stated as fact.

Another possibility is that freed from the gag which is on them when they are in office, they are now speaking out about something which many, many millions of people believe.

Israel's repeated breach of international law is not limited to its atrocities in Palestine.

reply to post by dontreally

and than you got the incidents related in the bible, with the babylonians, persians and Egyptians...worst being the philistines (ie; palestinians)..

This is quite a longstanding issue. The Jews who are relatively innocent, and who have no record of oppressing any peoples and the hundreds if not thousands of events where thousands of Jews were killed. And yet they suffer. and people always believe the propaganda.

For one thing, Palestinians are Philistines about as much as I'm descended from a 16th Century Italian map maker( Amerigo Vespucci) because I'm a natural born American. As far as I know, I am not Italian at all. I don't deny that there may be some small representation of descent from the ancient Philistine blood represented, that would seem fairly slight though.

Since you bring up the Bible, a few facts about the Bible story: The Philistines were in the land already before the Israelites left Egypt.

EX 13:17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt." 18 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea. The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.
NIV

There was actually a highway going up the coast, connecting Egypt to the Hittite empire. It was already established fact that the land was home to other people before ever any Israelite confederacy was established.

EX 3:8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey--the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

EX 23:31 "I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the desert to the River. I will hand over to you the people who live in the land and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land, or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."

Even up to the eventual time of Solomon this driving out and killing and demolition of the inhabitants was going on. The remaining inhabitants, who called the land their home for hundreds of years, were then enslaved.

1KI 9:20 All the people left from the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these peoples were not Israelites), 21 that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites could not exterminate--these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day.

How can you say there is no record of oppression? It's right there in the Bible. Extermination or enslavement, no other option given or allowed, no treaties, nothing!

The propaganda that has been peddled is that Palestinians have invaded Israel.

reply to post by pthena


Who said there wasnt any treaties? The bible alludes to it, which the Talmud explains:

They were first given the option to evacuate.
If not, they could submit and live in the land according to a set of terms (7 laws of noah)

Or, the could go to war with them, which they did. And they lost

Palestinians arent a genuine people. A genuine people have their own language; palestinians are arabs.

The Jews, speak Hebrew. And the majority of todays Jewry are descended from the Judeans and biblical israelites. Theres a whole compendium of rabbinic works that were written at the turn of the common era. The mishna, and many other midrashim.

The Jews have every right to live in israel, and indeed, they have always had a constant presence in the land.

Palestine is a permutation of Philitstine (same hebrew letters) which Hadrian had called judea after he ransacked it. He wanted to insult the Jews, and this was the way to do it.

So, really? palestinians are a real people? consider how the name even came into existence. Hadrian allocated 40% of Romes legions to a small part of his empire just to eradicate the Jews. 985 towns were pillaged. 650,000 Jews killed. Many of Israels greatest Rabbis were murdered in a public fashion (see the 10 martyrs).

reply to post by wcitizen


Gag schmag.. As politicians they see the situation differently, they see a bigger picture, they see the macro of two nations in a conflict, both in difficult situations, both bound by political tides and ties, they are aware of the fact that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is but a freckle on the ass cheeks of human rights violations.. That this conflict doesn't generate the amount of dead in a year that some conflicts in Africa generate in a week...
And the truth is.. I find it hard to believe they actually care for the Palestinians.. If they had they would've done something while they still had power, not now when they're powerless.

You, and many people like you, on the other hand, are led to believe that this conflict is the source of all woes in the world. They're just trying to ride this popularity wave.

We each have our opinion.. You say they were gagged and are finally free, I say they see the bigger picture, and hardly care about the Palestinians, and only care about getting back into their old office.

What can I say.. I'm a cynic.

reply to post by dontreally

Who said there wasnt any treaties? The bible alludes to it, which the Talmud explains:

They were first given the option to evacuate.
If not, they could submit and live in the land according to a set of terms (7 laws of noah)

Or, the could go to war with them, which they did. And they lost

The Bible more than alludes to it. Only through deception did the Gibeonites avoid being wiped out.

JOS 9:16 Three days after they made the treaty with the Gibeonites, the Israelites heard that they were neighbors, living near them. 17 So the Israelites set out and on the third day came to their cities: Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth and Kiriath Jearim.
. . .
JOS 9:22 Then Joshua summoned the Gibeonites and said, "Why did you deceive us by saying, `We live a long way from you,' while actually you live near us? 23 You are now under a curse: You will never cease to serve as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God."

JOS 9:24 They answered Joshua, "Your servants were clearly told how the LORD your God had commanded his servant Moses to give you the whole land and to wipe out all its inhabitants from before you. So we feared for our lives because of you, and that is why we did this. 25 We are now in your hands. Do to us whatever seems good and right to you."

I don't know any Talmud, can you quote some?

Palestinians arent a genuine people. A genuine people have their own language; palestinians are arabs.

I think you missed the irony. I'm not Italian even though I was born in a land with an Italian derived name. I don't speak any American languages eg Carib or Nahuatl or Arapaho. I speak English. Does that make me not American, but rather English? Should I go to England and evict a non-English speaker and take his property?

Palestinians are Palestinians by virtue of being born in Palestine just like I'm American by virtue of being born in the Americas. Americans are real people. So are Palestinians.

The Jews have every right to live in israel, and indeed, they have always had a constant presence in the land.

Humans have a right to live, I don't condone the taking of life based upon language spoken or ethnicity in any way, shape, or form. Moreover, I agree that any Jew, Arab, Samaritan, Druze and any other person born in the territory now known as the Jewish State of Israel has an inalienable right to live there, and be afforded complete citizenship without discrimination.

More to the point of this thread, I support the UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed on 11 December 1948 which provided (Article 11):

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

Which I take to mean the victims of the Nakba have every right to return to their homes and villages or be duly compensated for their losses. This includes their children and grandchildren born in refugee camps in other countries eg Lebanon, Jordan, or Palestine who have no citizenship any where.

Further more I think it completely reasonable to consider Jewish settlement building upon Israeli occupied Palestinian land including East Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley to be in gross violation of the fourth Geneva Convention.

Article 49
. . .
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

As someone else has said earlier, once out of office politicians feel freer to speak their minds without concern for political repercussion.

A little more info: by Saeb Erakat, Chief negotiator for the PLO, posted as The returning issue of Palestine's refugees in sabbahreport Dec 10, 2010

Before his murder in 1948, Lord Folke Bernadotte, the first UN mediator to the Arab-Israeli conflict, stated: "It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent [Palestinian] victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine." Lord Bernadotte paid for his candour with his life as Jewish militants assassinated him under the direction of Yitzhak Shamir, the man who would later become prime minister of Israel.

Less than three months after his death, as the war of 1948 ground to a close, and nearly three-quarters of the entire indigenous Palestinian population had been displaced by Israeli forces, the UN passed general assembly resolution 194, calling for the return of Palestinian refugees to their homes and to be awarded compensation for their losses.

On Saturday, 62 years will have passed without this historic resolution being implemented despite being upheld by the UN with nearly universal consensus ever since. In fact, Israel's own admission as a member to the United Nations was contingent on its adherence to the principles of UNGA 194, something it proceeded to disregard once membership was granted.

I was just in Israel. Actually viewing the settlements puts a whole new spin on this. I was also in the "Palestinian Territories" and the Golan Heights. I don't think Europe has any idea what they are talking about here. They have no sense of scale. A "settlement" is just a neighborhood right next door to another neighborhood a block or two away. People travel between 'Palestinian Territories" and "Israel' all the time. There is active commerce going on here. I could stand on the road leading to the town that was shelled by the Syrians and throw a rock and hit the artillery. The "Golan Heights" is a small hill you could walk up in less than five minutes.

I was in a town shelled from Lebanonb with rockets, the next hill over. Everyone there has a bomb shelter and underground communications ies them all together. The UN wants to build a wall down the middle of a farming area, inhabited by Arabs (not all Arabs are Palestinians). The UN always gets huffy when Israel builds a wall, but it's OK for the UN to build a wall. The Arab farmers don't want tl leave Israel because they make $30K per year. If they were "in Lebanon" they'd make $200 a year.

The UN and Europe and the US should butt out of this issue.