N. Korea Crisis - Updated as News come to hand

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Of course what I would like is to take out just Kim Jong Il, his whole family and his generals... but this is impossible to do.

So the only way to do that is to do a surprise first strike against the capital...

Or let North Koreans civilians be in slavery and hunger forever while their crazy leadership develop more and more nukes.

I have always said that it is down to the people to rise up against a dictator, not for another nation to come in to do the job for them.

This should have been the case with Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's up to the people, if they don't want to live under such a dictatorship, it is their country, and their job to overthrow the leadership. It's not the responsibility of the US or any other nation to be "helpful".

If a freak-show government took control of the UK, like the BNP for instance, we would overthrow that government ourselves. We certainly wouldn't want another nation coming in to do it and installing their own puppet regime.

I don't know what it's like in NK, but I can imagine. There are always opportunities to create change, and I have no doubt there are groups within it that are planning to take action. But it takes time.
And if NK attacks another nation, then that nation is of course free to respond.
I agree that if SK decides to take immediate and complete action against NK as a result of being attacked, its allies should be involved. But unless SK makes that move, no other nation should even be making threats about the retaliation.

If SK does take action, the US (and others) should be involved. Until SK makes that decision, no other nation has a right to intervene. IMO.

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it sounds like escalation to me . . .

Ratchetting it up . . .

reply to post by phatpackage


This is just blatantly untrue. Even if we carpet nuked North Korea it would do little more than kill a bunch of peasants, children, and senior citizens.

Please read up on the North Korea Area Handbook, which I linked to above. The whole place is honeycombed with underground facilities.

Another good resource if you want to leave the cheerleading behind, and really educate yourself about the situation, is North Korea Uncovered. en.wikipedia.org...

Warning: reading the area handbook, and perusing the mapping data provided by North Korea Uncovered might make you a bit less cocky and a bit more uncomfortable.

If you have a problem with my facts take it up with the US Marine Corps. Don't shoot the messenger who is so desperately trying to enlighten you.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by oozyism

 

We only have a little over 10% of our forces deployed.

10% of volunteer forces. We still have a massive pool(even illegal aliens and resident aliens are not exempt) to conscript from in the event of a major conflict.

In World War 2 we fielded over 16 million troops. We currently have over 100 million citzens and foreigners that could be conscripted.

Did you even get what I posted?

It isn't about troops, it is about those war ships, those Jets, those drones, those tanks, those ...

You get what I mean now right.

The American military is too stretched.

If you want to talk about troops, China is dominant.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


What and risk tarnishing their jingoism with facts, not on your Nelly mate, thare's folks a smack talkin the Yoo ESS AYY with facts already, LET'S NUKE THE WORLD that'd show em who's the powerfullest alpha teens of the world.

Nothing to see here, folks. Please stand down from all of the nuke talk. Ain't gonna happen. This was nothing more than NK letting the world know that they are still here. It's also how NK gets food supplies delivered and other essentials.

By doing it this way, NK leaders save face since it's the westerners who will start the talks and not them. Have a great day and a wonderful Thanksgiving for those in the US. Armeggedon will be delayed.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Hydroelectric plants can be easily taken out.

Underground facilities need ventilation, fresh air, water, and waste disposal.

Remove one of those and it doesn't matter how much food they have.

Biological and chemical weapons, especially those that destroy air filters, would be useful.

Originally posted by GoalPoster

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it sounds like escalation to me . . .

Ratchetting it up . . .

Yes it is in light of another provocation I suspect, or are they saying that even if N-Korea shows signs of another provocation:

to strike North Korea's missile base around its coastline artillery positions if it shows signs of additional provocation, his spokeswoman said.

Why attack with notice, that is such a BS war tactic.

It is like in a boxing match, telling your opponent where you gonna hit him next, "hey man, I will punch you in the nose next".

reply to post by HattoriHanzou

publication which will help enlighten you.

Now Now. We all know you are the one who needs enlightening. Maybe you will be privileged enough one day to get help from me!. So enough of the sarcasm I will beat you anytime! North korea can't even feed it's own people now. How they gonna do it for 5 years underground?. They have nothing like what you mentioned. They are just about broke!. These old Russian equipment most of which will probably fail when used properly. It's the classic "Saturday night special". The only ones in their underground bunkers are Lil kim & his bum chums! He does not give a rats about his countrymen!

Al Jazeera English reporting China's Premier Wen Jiabio and Russian PM Vladimir Putin are meeting in St Petersburg to discuss the Korean artillery clash.

That meeting was kept quiet....



North Korea shells South in fiercest attack in decades

Excerpt from the link:

North Korea said its wealthy neighbour started the fight.

"Despite our repeated warnings, South Korea fired dozens of shells from 1 p.m. ... and we've taken strong military action immediately," its KCNA news agency said in a brief statement.

South Korea has been conducting military exercises this week but it was not clear whether there had been any drills near the island that could have triggered the incident.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the latest rise in tension represented a "colossal danger".

China, the impoverished North's only powerful ally, was careful to avoid taking sides, calling on both Koreas to "do more to contribute to peace".

More


CNN reported that North Korea said it had rang South Korea and asked them stop carrying out a military exercise which was firing towards North Korea. South Korea refused or did not respond, and North Korea opened fire.

Al Jazeera English says South Korea says it was not firing towards North Korea during military exercises, but was firing West.


Very interesting that both the Russian PM and Chinese Premier are meeting about this in St Petersburg. Were they due to meet anyway?

china better get this ass hole in line.

it's the only one who can and don't think they haven't used them for years.

china is an idiot for letting them get out of hand.

the "sunshine policy" hasn't worked for 10yrs.

it sucks to kill so many people but whatcha gonna do?

i think the west will push hard on nk with china this time.

sk could take them out with a first strike. china knows this.

if they want a local war, the us will gladly help. along with japan and tiewan.

lots of dead and now the f###k what?

I have been studying North Korea for several years now. If anybody here wants to actually understand the situation more thoroughly please start with the Rand Corporation's publications on the matter. Publication 3305.1 is a good start, but there are almost a hundred fifty relevant reports available. I HAVE READ MANY OF THEM and I suggest you folks get crackin' if you want to actually understand what is going on, and why North Korea isn't just a pushover.

If you go to www.rand.org and just type in North Korea into the search field, you will be given many reports to choose from. Most are free.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by phatpackage

 

What can they do? Just charge?

Please read the North Korea Area Handbook www.fas.org... as it will help enlighten you as to why this is a classic Mexican standoff. If you don't want to read the whole thing, read the executive summary. If you don't even want to do that, listen to what I have to say here:

North Korea will destroy Seoul if it is attacked with any great force. North Korea has underground facilities which can produce tanks, aircraft, and munitions. It would be a very very difficult gamble to attack them, even if we discount China's reaction.

this is not about "Koreas". TPTB are pulling wild cards to push China and USA onto 3rd World War.

reply to post by oozyism

The American military is too stretched.

Again you miss the point!. So I will say it again! The US could fight at least another 2 wars & protect their homeland if they want to. They have the technology to destroy countries without setting foot in them plus they can "make" as much money as they need to!. Wars only make them stronger financially, it's called stimulating the economy. Check history - Try to keep up Oozy!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to post by phatpackage


In case you haven't comprehended what has gone before no one in this thread has given any support to NKorea, just stating facts that they have a view point and a valuable strategic position with over 50 years of digging in and preparation time.

At the very least a war with NKorea will cost countless billions of $$$, which the US doesn't have and the sacrifice of the population of Seoul.

Originally posted by Feltrick
Nothing to see here, folks. Please stand down from all of the nuke talk. Ain't gonna happen. This was nothing more than NK letting the world know that they are still here. It's also how NK gets food supplies delivered and other essentials.

By doing it this way, NK leaders save face since it's the westerners who will start the talks and not them. Have a great day and a wonderful Thanksgiving for those in the US. Armeggedon will be delayed.

So when North Korea plays up and shoots up South Korean civillians, we give them food and supplies?

That like coming home to see your wife being unfaithful and taking her out afterwards for a slap up meal!

Durh, what are we doing sitting back and being taken for fools...!

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


so nk has the right stuff to take on the world?

people with no lights?

starving people will take on the world?

1 month of cutting off supply lines will bring the nk down.

What if N Korea's actions are a response to an unmentioned provocation?
What if this is just a step towards one of the many false flag setups that so many are quick to (usually) suggest?
November 30th is not too far off...
I'm just saying...

Things won't get interesting until China gets involved in this mess. Then it will snowball from that point. Maybe.

reply to post by phatpackage



It's OK, if you don't want to read any useful, vetted information about North Korea I guess I will provide it to you as you ask for it.

North Korea feeds the military. The civilian population gets the scraps. Stockpiles have been maintained for over 40 years.

North Korea has manufactured its own tanks (underground!), which are derivatives of Russian designs, modernized with COTS equipment which completely eliminates expensive R&D efforts. They just shop for the stuff they need on Amazon or whatever.

Wargaming has been done to test the effectiveness of our state of the art jets versus their older designs. We would maintain no effective advantage, even considering stealth technology, as rather than radar our aircraft would be tracked by ground observers communicating by radio transmissions across the entire UHF and VHF bands. We could never hope to jam all of the radio spectrum there. Missiles would be nearly useless, as the Koreans have been training to draw us down into valleys and canyons, and not to sortie outside of areas which nullify our advantages.

I can continue to provide you with good solid facts, which I have learned by reading vetted information which was prepared for military and civilian leaders. What are the names of the publications you have been getting your information from? I would like to take a look at them.