The Beaver Wars, also called the Iroquois Wars or the French and Iroquois Wars: Balkanization

Columbus was accompanied by five 'maranos' (Jews who had foresworn their religion and supposedly became Catholics), Luis de Torres, interpreter, Marco, the surgeon, Bemal, the physician, Alonzo de la Calle and Gabriel Sanchez (1).
Gabriel Sanchez, abetted by the other four Jews, sold Columbus on the idea of capturing 500 Indians and selling them as slaves in Seville, Spain, which was done. Columbus did not receive any of the money from the sale of the slaves, but he became the victim of a conspiracy fostered by Bemal, the ship's doctor. He, Columbus, suffered injustice and imprisonment as his reward. Betrayed by the five maranos (Jews) whom he had trusted and helped. This, ironically, was the beginning of slavery in the Americas (2).
The Jews were expelled from Spain on August 2, 1492, and from Portugal in 1497. Many of these Jews emigrated to Holland, where they set up the Dutch West Indies Company to exploit the new world

www.iamthewitness.com...

yes JC
I am positing that they did know what they were doing just as they know what they are doing today
"though deception though shalt create war"
That's the very essence of Balkanization."
Clinton was involved in creating both Mexicos current cartel wars ( a form of divide and conqure, or a social balkanization, ( fiefdoms) and in the Balkans ) balkanization)

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


No doubt the Indians warred over hunting grounds from time to time, as their tribes grew, or during lean seasons before the Christians arrived.

But that intensified because the Christians became a whole new market, for much more expanded trade. As their customer base expanded, so too did they need to expand their hunting grounds to get the furs.

When it was just an Indian only market I doubt that kind of intense pressure to over hunt and trap was on.

The truth is they would probably all still be here, if Christians hadn't shown up on the scene.

And you are right the French gave them Cognac not Whiskey!

Oh and truffles and soufles too!

And really tasty pastries!

And o cotoure fashions!

And doileys!

It was the doileys they would really kill for!

reply to post by masqua

Hi Masqua
I believe the arming was deliberate.
The Jews created the Dutch East India company as I referenced above.
The Jews were not directly allowed to trade with the Indians in the colonies because that would have been direct competition with the officialy sanctioned entities.

They sold the guns to the Iroquois, who then sat in ambush on the rivers and portages for the Huron, who were the transporters of the firs from the hinterland, and who were not well armed.This assured that the Iroquois, who's beaver supply dwindled first to acquire the wealth to trade to the Dutch and the British.
This provided a market for the Dutch and British sugar, and guns, and the whiskey made from the sugar cane.
The sugar came from the island plantations where the Jews mentioned above controlled the slave trade, and the British and Spanish controlled the Land.
( Israel to day has been shown to be the capital of the white slave trade) as was brought to light when Dyne corps was busted trafficking in slaves...( see Cynthia McKinney's questions to Donald Rumsfeld on that matter)
This also forced the south to use slaves because the south would not have been able to compete with out those slaves.
Of course the North favored the indentured servant type of slave ...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I donno...the Huron still had the North Shore of Ontario, and a farming economy as well.

Not so.

In the fifty-year period between 1651 and 1701, southern Ontario went through three stages of population shift. In the first stage (the1650s to 1689s), after the dispersal of the Hurons and their allies, the area was used as an Iroquois hunting ground. In the second stage (the 1670s and 1689s), Iroquois settlements were established for the purpose of agricultural production as well as beaver hunting.

-snip-

By the early 1680s there were at least a half-dozen Iroquois villages established on the north shore of Lake Ontario and into the interior.

From The Ojibwa of Southern Ontario by Peter S Schmalz, University of Toronto Press

The Algonquins were still doing their seasonal rounds. I think it was a matter of ensuring that 'our Indians were tougher than their Indians' as far as the English/Dutch went. Both sides were using each other as proxies.

You're making the Beaver War sound a bit smallish when in fact is was a huge conflict. I hope I will be able to provide some insight on just how important this campaign actually was in respect to the establishment of Upper and Lower Canada and the final alignment between France and England as we see it to be now. I doubt the Ojibwa and their role in the Beaver War played a minor role in that.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

No doubt the Indians warred over hunting grounds from time to time, as their tribes grew, or during lean seasons before the Christians arrived.

Yes. They did.

But that intensified because the Christians became a whole new market, for much more expanded trade. As their customer base expanded, so too did they need to expand their hunting grounds to get the furs.

Agreed, although it wasn't much concerned with Christianity at the time although the Jesuits in Montreal were afraid to put weapons into the hands of the northern tribes, likely for good cause, since the Ojibwa were traditionally excellent warriors.

When it was just an Indian only market I doubt that kind of intense pressure to over hunt and trap was on.

Furs were a huge incentive simply because it made for excellent clothing accessories. The European furs were hunted almost to extinction since staying warm is a wonderful thing and, for that reason created a rich market back home when American furs came on the scene.

So, yes... it increased exponentially when Europeans appeared.

The truth is they would probably all still be here, if Christians hadn't shown up on the scene.

What? The animals or the natives?

And you are right the French gave them Cognac not Whiskey!

Oh and truffles and soufles too!

And really tasty pastries!

And o cotoure fashions!

And doileys!

It was the doileys they would really kill for!

Funny, and yet kinda sad at the same time. The perpetual joke about the native American's inability to handle alcohol raises it's tired head again.



Tell me, PT... do Europeans handle tobacco all that well?

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

I have NEVER claimed the whites were the SOLE agent of death in this situation
Balkanization of the proccess of EXPLOITING rivalries
Sure they fought, but if you notice the death rate of Indians since the white arrival it should be obvious that the kill rate went from, a few here and there too total genocide.

I mean look at any Balkanized area today.

The Indians of the day were inter related so there was competition, not slaughter.
Indians were a lot more sophisticated then that
After all they were here for up to 50,000 years
If they had a negative mortality rate at any time they would have extincted them selves long before the whites arrived.
But they didn't.
THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY IN EQUILIBRIUM
The Indians had to stay in balance like the deer starve when there is too little food.
They had to keep their birth rate high enough not to perish,

The Christians of the day had a deliberate church enforced doctrine of prohibition against taking baths
I kid you not. This made them walking bio hazard machines.
Nowhere in the bible does it instruct Christians not to take baths that I am aware of..
It was a deliberate genocidal tactic
Like the modern day residential schools was a deliberate tax dollar collaboration between churches and Government.

reply to post by masqua


Clearly I said it was the doileys that drove them mad.

Further I would like to clarify, too, that when I use the term "Christian" that is how all the vying European Corporate Entities and Sovereign Entities saw one another.

They referred to one another as Christians and the natives as either natives, savages or first nation people depending on the tone or tenor or purpose of the document.

Too it's important to understand that very often the Christians could not handle their liquor and it was typically only made available in exchange for some labors, like if they needed to quickly build a fort. The Christians would work harder for liqour in exchange than money.

It's not that Indians couldn't handle their liquor, it's that I think they often plied them with liquor to get them to agree to things and contract into things, they might not unless drunk.

In other words, oh my gosh I brought home who last night type of thing.

The main point is that the Christian Principles and Agents understood how to manipulate all those kinds of things, and would employ what ever they could to their advantage, whether it be trickery, or deception, violence, or alcohol, in at least one case, the Swedes even sent the Preist's wife, who amazingly enough a short time later eloped with another man from the settlement, and the Sweedish Governor had to appeal to Lord Baltimore and then the Dutch in Albany to try to get the woman back.

Now as far as Indians today go, here in South Florida they do so well, the Tribes have been floating loans to the State!

So...just goes to show you, he who has the last laugh, laughs last!

The land here where the Huron used to be is amongst some of the highest in demand land in Canada.
This is where not only the Canadian, but some of the American elite have their cottages.
and a huge chunk of the land that was sold still belongs to the Ojibway reserve that is peopled by the Indians that were imported to replaced the vanished Huron.
If Canada were to honor its treaties the ALL the wealth of the country would have to be used.
Canada would be broke.

PS
as someone who has tended bar extensively to both Indians and whites and everything in between....
Alcohal was recently determined to be more deadly then heroin tobacco and coc aine.
Your average Indian is no different then your average heavy drinking European or oriental.

The white whiskey sellers used to put everything from gun powder to rattlesnake venom in the whiskey to give it more kick and to cover the fact that they watered it down.
tupentine eech
It got to the point that some of of the Indians didn't recognize good booze as booze at all.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
And you are right the French gave them Cognac not Whiskey!
Oh and truffles and soufles too!
And really tasty pastries!
And o cotoure fashions!
And doileys!
It was the doileys they would really kill for!

Can you cite the Cognac, please? The rest is rectally sourced and has no place in a serious discussion.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Yes it is from the Cognac region of France and if taken in a suppository form I do suggest watering it down to avoid a strong burning sensation and alcohol poisoning.

Doiley?

The "Donne" the french Labour brought over by the Jesuits worked for a ration of booze as part of their pay.

After 1812 they kept the supplies of Booze and powder on two little islands so the natives of all stripes
weren't likely to get too carried away....to prevent self balkanization
Magazine Island and Whiskey island
Indians, Irishmen, Frenchmen, and whiskey....and guns...

Originally posted by masqua
Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I donno...the Huron still had the North Shore of Ontario, and a farming economy as well.

Not so.

In the fifty-year period between 1651 and 1701, southern Ontario went through three stages of population shift. In the first stage (the1650s to 1689s), after the dispersal of the Hurons and their allies, the area was used as an Iroquois hunting ground. In the second stage (the 1670s and 1689s), Iroquois settlements were established for the purpose of agricultural production as well as beaver hunting.-snip-

By the early 1680s there were at least a half-dozen Iroquois villages established on the north shore of Lake Ontario and into the interior.
I'm very much aware of that. I was referring to the period before the vanquishment. In my opinion it was Denonville that inspired the Iroquois du Nord to return to the south shore from their farming villages once he had desecrated the homelands. He found an empty village at the Rouge. However, the Algonquin did kick Iroquois butt back into NY state ca 1700. I figure it was their response to what the 5 Nations had done to the Huron, and an unwillingness to be next.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
The Algonquins were still doing their seasonal rounds. I think it was a matter of ensuring that 'our Indians were tougher than their Indians' as far as the English/Dutch went. Both sides were using each other as proxies.

You're making the Beaver War sound a bit smallish when in fact is was a huge conflict.

Sorry...just reducing it to the fewest possible words. It was all a very complex interplay, and the various First Nations were just as busy jockeying for position as were the Europeans.

I find that there is a 'pan-Indian' (if I may borrow American terminology) tendency to diminish the culpability of the First Nations in all of this. "Sure the Iroquois slaughtered the Huron...but the Europeans made them."

I simply don't buy that. It didn't fly at Nuremberg, and it didn't fly in New France.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I find that there is a 'pan-Indian' (if I may borrow American terminology) tendency to diminish the culpability of the First Nations in all of this. "Sure the Iroquois slaughtered the Huron...but the Europeans made them."

I simply don't buy that. It didn't fly at Nuremberg, and it didn't fly in New France.

And you shouldn't. The Iroquois and Huron fought constantly and the Neutrals were wiped off the map completely.
As well, the Ojibwa were fiercely warlike when push comes to shove and that tradition still exists today. They didn't get that way be staying out of fights.

The Europeans did aid in upsetting the balance created over previous centuries by suddenly selling guns to one group and not to the other.

I believe it was done purposely and hence a conspiracy to eradicate and displace large numbers of people. Genocide by proxy, if you will.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

JC
to what extent were the iroquis and the huron killing themselves before the whites arrived again....?

the Huron and the Iroqois and the rest of the Algonquin were realitively stable till the whiteman arrived.
even if only after 12000 years here more likely 30.000 to 50.000 years
15 years after the Jesuits arrived 125, 000 hurion were dead
the land was vacant.

I think that alone illustrates there is no comparison between the two rates.
Do we have to examine the death rates in other areas where the white Judeao christians arrived?
same same
from balanced for ages to genocide in decades whether you are talking about OZ Africa or any where else

Originally posted by masqua
The Europeans did aid in upsetting the balance created over previous centuries by suddenly selling guns to one group and not to the other.
I believe it was done purposely and hence a conspiracy to eradicate and displace large numbers of people. Genocide by proxy, if you will.

I will disagree on that count, as the First Nations were an integral part of the economic process. The Albany traders supported their proxies by selling them guns. The Montreal traders did not. Yes that upset the balance, but I don't see that as a mutually agreed upon policy. Eradication did not matter til settlement and a requirement for that other resource...land.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuckI will disagree on that count, as the First Nations were an integral part of the economic process. The Albany traders supported their proxies by selling them guns. The Montreal traders did not. Yes that upset the balance, but I don't see that as a mutually agreed upon policy. Eradication did not matter til settlement and a requirement for that other resource...land.

Consider then the mutual resource of the missionaries. PT loves to bring all things back to Rome and, in a way, the Catholic Church did play both sides against the middle.

The French:

The French occupied three regions of the New World: (1) Eastern Canada, (2) Louisiana and the Mississippi Valley, some of the lesser Antilles and Guiana in eastern South America.
www.newadvent.org...

So, the Jesuits were actively prodding the middle from two fronts.

The English:

Early in the 17th century some Puritan groups separated from the Church of England. Among these were the Pilgrims, who in 1620 founded Plymouth Colony. Ten years later, under the auspices of the Massachusetts Bay Company, the first major Puritan migration to New England took place. The Puritans brought strong religious impulses to bear in all colonies north of Virginia, but New England was their stronghold, and the Congregationalist churches established there were able to perpetuate their viewpoint about a Christian society for more than 200 years.
mb-soft.com...

To believe that the Vatican was not involved in these machinations is to think that religion played a minor role in the world of the 17th century.

The Puritan colony was surrounded on all sides... the Jesuits in the north and south and the great unknown expanse to the west. The east was just salt water.

Of course the muskets were traded out on purpose and the ultimate design was to weaken the influence of the French in the north. Take away their native allies and the threat of the Iroquois is very real to those early colonists.

Those tribes whose sway were most extensive when America was first discovered were:

•in North America, the Iroquois League in what is now the State of New York; they had organized for the purpose of plunder and devastation and were just then extending their destructive forays;
www.newadvent.org...

Think it was really just an accidental arming of the Iroquois?

Doubt it.

The best-known of the early Jesuit Missions is the heroic failure of St. Jean de Brébeuf and his companions in Huronia. They had hoped to establish a Church there that would be at once fully Catholic and fully Huron. At Ste-Marie, in 1639, they built "a house of prayer and a home of peace," a community where white and aboriginal people were to dwell together in harmony, where the rites and traditions of both Europeans and Hurons could be strengthened and enriched by the values of the Gospel. But their plans got caught up in tribal warfare, in the intrigues of the French and English courts, in the politics of the fur and brandy trades. They were destroyed by those they most wanted to serve. Eight have been canonized: Jean de Brébeuf, Isaac Jogues, Gabriel Lalement, Antoine Daniel, Charles Garnier, Noel Chabanel, Réne Goupil, and Jean de la Lande; and many others, including their native friends Joseph Chiwatenhwa and Kateri Tekakwitha, continued to inspire missionaries down to the present day.
www.jesuits.ca...

Repeat: "in the intrigues of the French and English courts"

Good move by the Puritans... too bad it ultimately failed, eh?

And so it was that the Hudson Bay Trading Company became Upper Canada and France became Lower Canada
and everyone lived happily ever after.

reply to post by BobAthome


You're forgetting about that little battle on the Plains of Abraham around fifty years later.

A lot of Frenchmen prefer to forget about it too.

Originally posted by masqua
Consider then the mutual resource of the missionaries. PT loves to bring all things back to Rome and, in a way, the Catholic Church did play both sides against the middle.

PT is not part of my discussion, but I'll have to consider what you're said. I think our only point of disagreement is in your larger-scale conspiratorial vision of the era. I'm still working on the basis that they were putting it together as they went along...that there was no grand scheme outside of getting as much of the pot as they could, while they could. Recall...they couldn't even figure out how North America was represented in the Bible...let alone how 'les sauvages' factored into it.

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by BobAthome

 

You're forgetting about that little battle on the Plains of Abraham around fifty years later.

A lot of Frenchmen prefer to forget about it too.

But they just bloody won't, will they?