A different view on homosexuality from an imperfect Christian

I posted this in a reply in another thread, but I thought it may make a good topic on it's own for discussion. I grow tired of the way some people play games with God's word, so I felt like bringing this to the table.

Sin is sin. God does not establish any one sin being more offensive than another, with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. All sins can be forgiven save that one, so homosexuality is no more offensive to God than lying, or stealing, or adultry etc.

Now when you bring the condition of repentance into the equation, which is a requirement for salvation, it changes somewhat. The question becomes then, do you revel in your sin, or despise that you sin. If one takes pride in his or her sins, then repentance is not there. But if one feels badly about their sins, repentance is evident.

Bottom line, live and let live. God gave us free choice. We are free to choose Him, or to choose against Him, free to sin and enjoy it, or sin and regret it, but make no mistake we ALL sin. And there are always consequences, both immediate and eternally.

This is what I took from God's word.

Edited to add that I did not know what area this topic is best presented in, Mod's please move to appropriate forum as I am a noob.

Homosexuality is not a sin, other animals do it. And in the swan family 2 dads raise healthier and more strong children then a "conventional family."

It is no ones business who another sleeps with.

The bible also states that if you children misbehave you can stone them, no one follows that.

Peoples sexual preference should not be involved with god, if someone chooses not to be able to procreate then it is their choice.

Pred...

Very well put, Endure. It's important to remember that we are to love the sinner not the sin. Homosexuality is a sin. The commandments were given to man, for our benefit, not to animals.

I've read a few commentaries on "blasphemy against the holy spirit", and the general impression I get is that it involves a willful rejection of God's power. But doubt and an absence of faith are accounted for. To put it simply: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" means knowing the truth, and still choosing to reject it.

In the sense that none of us can REALLY know the truth utterly and completely (without some undeniable revelation) this means that blasphemy against the holy spirit is impossible. It's really the sin that Lucifer and his angels are guilty of - since they know the truth and still reject it. We as humans can't be guilty of this sin because we can't really know the truth - we can only have faith.

As to your thread in general, I agree. Homosexuality, as a sin, is no better or worse than any other sin. Still, I think the majority of non-Christians would still take issue with the idea that homosexuality is a sin at all.

This is the point of contention, so to them your post will seem like nothing more than useless apologetics.

Still, I appreciate the sentiment.

Originally posted by Endure

....homosexuality is no more offensive to God than lying, or stealing, or adultry etc.

I admire you endorsing "live and let live" concept, but...you do consider homosexuality a sin, is that right?

Sorry, but I am a bit slow today. Correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but what I got from this was that...homosexuality IS a sin, but then everybody is a sinner in their own way by means of lying, cheating and what have you...so cool off.
Did I read it right?

I am strongly pro-gay rights, and I do NOT consider homosexuality a sin.

I honestly and strongly believe that Homosexuals can help with the so called over population problem.

reply to post by Arrius


Well, I realize that this is the flashpoint question, and tried to avoid the discussion being centered arount this point, as these types of discussions usually do and instead focus on the message of forgiveness and that to hold homosexuals as much worse than any other sinner is just wrong.

That being said, we do have this from God's word:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I don't get to decide what is sin or not, He does. I am just trying to get people to quit hating other people, in the name of a loving God. That is deplorable to me.

Does that mean that all divorced and remarried people must repent and return to their first marriage partners (or become celibate)?
A divorced woman and anyone who marries her remains an adulterer and thus unrepentant.
So please ask all divorced preachers and politicians or public figures to repent from their remarried lifestyles.
Jesus Himself was very specific on this: Matt 5:31-32.

Also, all female preachers must repent, since a woman may not teach men, and she must learn in silence.
It clearly says so in 1 Timothy 2: 11-14.
Women must also be of modest apparel, without "braided hair, gold, pearl or costly array" (above, verse 9).

These are much more common "sins", so why do they not repent or called to repentance?

So still, only one "sin" is singled out for repentance.

Ironically Jesus said that not all men can receive the teaching on heterosexual marriage, and He divided three classes of "eunuchs" who do not marry women. Only the the second class appears to be a man castrated by men.
The first is: "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb ..." (Matt 19: 12).
So the truth is in the Bible for me, and I have no need to repent for being gay.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Does that mean that all divorced and remarried people must repent and return to their first marriage partners (or become celibate)?
A divorced woman and anyone who marries her remains an adulterer and thus unrepentant.
So please ask all divorced preachers and politicians or public figures to repent from their remarried lifestyles.
Jesus Himself was very specific on this: Matt 5:31-32.

Also, all female preachers must repent, since a woman may not teach men, and she must learn in silence.
It clearly says so in 1 Timothy 2: 11-14.
Women must also be of modest apparel, without "braided hair, gold, pearl or costly array" (above, verse 9).

These are much more common "sins", so why do they not repent or called to repentance?

So still, only one "sin" is singled out for repentance.

Ironically Jesus said that not all men can receive the teaching on heterosexual marriage, and He divided three classes of "eunuchs" who do not marry women. Only the the second class appears to be a man castrated by men.
The first is: "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb ..." (Matt 19: 12).
So the truth is in the Bible for me, and I have no need to repent for being gay.

Hey brother, I am not here to judge you. I am here to try and make a reasonable plea to reasonable people to stop hating people because of who they are.

reply to post by drkid


We do not have an over population problem, China and India have this problem, we are barely sustaining the population here.

But, I get what your saying.

Pred...

Portraying any type of consenting sexuality as a sin is an age-old conspiracy against the feminine.

The laws of purity are obviously a power play; perhaps they were necessary in that time.

As far as I can tell, the Book of Leviticus is mostly a fabrication.

Go figure.

reply to post by Endure


How about this. I would like to know if this is a "sin."

A lesbian couple. They love each other. They believe strongly in Christianity or any Abrahamic religion that considers sleeping with the same sex a sin. So they never perform a sexual act with each other. Yet they live their lives as any normal couple. Kiss, hold hands eat and sleep in the same bed (again reiterating) subtract the sexual part.

What would scripture say to such a couple? Still sinful? Shall their intestines boil in the depths of hell with the murderers and molesters?

Originally posted by Endure
reply to post by Arrius

 

That being said, we do have this from God's word:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I don't get to decide what is sin or not, He does. I am just trying to get people to quit hating other people, in the name of a loving God. That is deplorable to me.

Two things, before I being addressing some points in your post..

1. I apologize if I sounded rude; not my intention. But yeah...it's a heated topic....

2. "I am just trying to get people to quit hating other people, in the name of a loving God. That is deplorable to me." Wonderful words, I agree, and I admire you for thinking that way. and I mean that.

Now...

I could steer this thread into a whole different direction if I say that Bible was put together by humans and wasn't a copy published by Heavens Press or something like that...so who's to say that the word contained it in is truly God's words or not...
Besides...if God made humans with free will...and that free will made some man want to "rock the kasbah" with another man, (or woman with another woman)....doesn't the responsibility of that sin ultimately lie with God then? (Yeah, I will go to hell....moving on...)

About that line...

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. "

They don't. In a general sense, men lie with women differently than they lie with men. Missionary position is different from....you know....

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Endure

 

How about this. I would like to know if this is a "sin."

A lesbian couple. They love each other. They believe strongly in Christianity or any Abrahamic religion that considers sleeping with the same sex a sin. So they never perform a sexual act with each other. Yet they live their lives as any normal couple. Kiss, hold hands eat and sleep in the same bed (again reiterating) subtract the sexual part.

What would scripture say to such a couple? Still sinful? Shall their intestines boil in the depths of hell with the murderers and molesters?

They are having bad thoughts so yes the are committing a sin.

My question is why can people that religion discriminates still believe in it?

Why do people need the reassurance that someone is looking after them?

Weird concept to me...

Pred...

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Endure

 

How about this. I would like to know if this is a "sin."

A lesbian couple. They love each other. They believe strongly in Christianity or any Abrahamic religion that considers sleeping with the same sex a sin. So they never perform a sexual act with each other. Yet they live their lives as any normal couple. Kiss, hold hands eat and sleep in the same bed (again reiterating) subtract the sexual part.

What would scripture say to such a couple? Still sinful? Shall their intestines boil in the depths of hell with the murderers and molesters?

My answer to this is, that is between them and God. I was not put here to judge them or tell them how to live.

reply to post by Endure

No worries, you started a great discussion!

the first issue I consider is that you could have used any number of "sins" to enter the topic of common original sin, but it's homosexuality, so that seems at least like a value judgement in itself (that is a cultural ethos outside religion too).

Then it is unclear what exactly is meant by homosexuality in your reading.
Is it an attraction between men? Is it a sex act?
Is it 'love' between men?
What exactly must one repent of?

Terms like "gay" or "homosexual" are not older than a century.

Originally posted by predator0187

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Endure

 

My question is why can people that religion discriminates still believe in it?


Pred...

While religion may discriminate against them, God does not. Religion and God are very different things.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Endure

 

No worries, you started a great discussion!

Of the first thing i think is that you could have used any number of "sins" to enter the topic of common original sin, but it's homosexuality, so that seems at least like a value judgement in itself (that is a cultural ethos outside religion too).

Then it is unclear what exactly is meant by homosexuality in your reading.
Is it an attraction between men? Is it a sex act?
Is it 'love' between men?
What exactly must one repent of?

Terms like "gay" or "homosexual" are not older than a century.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. The reason this was centered around homosexuality was because of another post I saw here that was centered around that topic, and some of the mean, hateful things being said weighed on my heart, so it was on my mind. I wasn't intentionally singling it out, in fact I was trying to "unsingle" it out lol.

reply to post by Endure


Is religion not the worship of god? Or at least the word of god? That's the bible which is the basis of religion.

God judges but tells us not to, god kills but tells us not to and he's one jealous guy.

Why people need the comfort of a fictional character is beyond me.

Pred...

Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by Endure

 

Is religion not the worship of god? Or at least the word of god? That's the bible which is the basis of religion.

God judges but tells us not to, god kills but tells us not to and he's one jealous guy.

Why people need the comfort of a fictional character is beyond me.

Pred...

No, religion was a man made institution centered around God. Religion changes through the ages, God never changes. the reason some of us need His comfort is because some of us are less than perfect, and wish to be perfect and He is the only solution to that equation. I understand that you think I believe in a fairy tale, and I respect that. However, that isn't what I believe, and I hope you respect that.