You think you deserve to earn more than $200k a year?

I have lived and worked in "capitalist" and "social-democratic" economies, and I've found that in the end, both systems generally pay people what their labor (knowledge, education, muscle, etc.) is worth to society. Those that don't think anyone should make more than 200K either made bad choices or want a middle-class existence for working-class skills. Either way, whiners will always be with us, and occasionally, they get rambunctious. That's what police are for. That said, I would rather be a manual laborer that appreciates life than a millionaire who whines about not being a billionaire. By the way, my income is closer to manual labor than 200K.

Only read the first page of replies and stopped before throwing up.

Some people hold themselves in high esteem, thats for sure.

Capitalism is not a path that can lead humanity to happiness as a whole.

But i guess all the guys earning enough to buy 10 cars per year dont give a crap about others. Or they wouldnt be doing so. :/

That s one of many issues we will have to deal with in order to evolve to a more harmonized humanity.

Nice thread.... I enjoyed reading everyones well articulated "take " on this....
Nice read.

It's troubling how dense some people are when it comes to economics.

1) People engaging in commerce do not "take" money from others. They are given money in exchange for goods and services. You see a rich businessman, point, and say "he took that money". You are mistaken. He was voluntarily given that money by people who valued whatever he was peddling. Who are you to intervene and prevent that voluntary transaction? Are you a Nazi? A dictator? A fascist? It sounds like you are.

2) Why choose $200k per year? Why not drop it to $20k per year? Ohh, let me guess .. it's because you make more than $20k per year. The world is full of people who think that they are so wonderful that they deserve other people's posessions through use of force. Shame on you.

3) If no one made under $200k per year, there would be no such thing as a business that employs more than a handful of people. You'd never see the advent of semiconductors, heavy machinery, steel fabrication, or even pencils. There's simply no way to buy the equipment necessary with such a paultry sum of money.

Ah, why bother. If I need to point out these basic things, you're too far gone.

This is the never-ending old socialist argument of wealth transfer from the "rich" to the government. The socialist will claim that the money of the rich should go to the middle and lower classes but it does not. It goes to the government - to those politicans in Washington DC - the ones who are so honorable and took such great care of the social security system and that keeps us safe by hiring a fleet of agents to sexually molest us at the airports. The money goes to the government who hires union workers to spend and redistribute other people's wealth to fund programs that appeal to the elite who get grants and contracts to design the government programs from their Ivy towers. The middle class does not qualify for anything so it is an illusion that the wealth transfer is going to the middle class. Wealth transfer never ends poverty. It miniumally maintains the poor in a holding pattern of poverty.

The socialist looks at an economy like a pie and they want to take that pie and slice it it up into even three hundred milllion equal pieces. Everyone then gets a little piece of what pie is remaining after the government distributers and thier friends get fed. Now everyone has a little piece of pie and no one has the money to start a business and hire others to increase the size of the pie. So the pie shrinks, unemployment increases and soon everyone is dirt poor clawing to get by and anyone who has anything remaining is the enemy - the "rich."

We learned in the 60's and 70's, that what constitutes the "rich" depends on how big and greedy the government machine gets. Soon anyone who earns any money who is deemed "rich" because there are people who earn no money and the machine needs to be fed. The machine also needs to justify it's existence so it must convience us that it will do more and more for us so we will feed it more of other people's earnings because there are more and more unemployed poor people with less and less opportunity to get out of poverty. Socialism is a never ending a cycle of need and centralized oppression.

I will say something about the "rich" of this generation. They are no longer socialized to be American - to be honorable and protective of their people's interest as a Nation and their freedom. They act like little kings and queens who can do anything they want to people because they are the owners or the bosses. They have no loyality to their people because they see themselves as citizens of the global economy and the only value they hold is getting more money - materialism. And they do abuse Americans and they do take on an attitude of being above all others - superior. Americans have a right to be angry at this generation's wealthy class because materialism is not a value and has no wisdom nor love; it is simply greed. People who think they are better than everyone else are the closest you can get to slave owners without a system of slavery.

byteshertz,

Your assertion that there should be a threshold of 200k for everyone defies the very principal of a free market economy. You see people earn what other people are willing to pay them. If you set an earning parameter you introduce yourself to trouble. Look at unions for example. Two people doing the same thing for the same pay. In every case one person will not produce as much as the next. What happens then is the person producing more quickly realizes that why should he put more effort for the same pay? It goes down hill from there.

Is it fair that professional atheletes make the crazy money they do? Probably not, but if their skill fills up stadiums then they have earned the right to make the money they do. Take any industry in todays global economy and you will find people who excel in that industry. They will always be in demand and paid accordingly. Many people at the bottom of the economic ladder have had some form of road block to the top. Education, drive, opportunity, poor upbringing, bad crowd of friends, drugs and the like certainly contribute to their economic malaise.

As a business owner I employ people of trades. Very skilled and very much in demand. The free market determines what I pay them not me. If my competition is paying $30.00 per hour I have to go higher for that talent. People who are suffering at the bottom need simply to make a plan for their future and stick with it. What I see is a I want it now mentality in the younger crowd. I recently had a kid apply for a job in my machine shop just weeks out of trade school. He was demanding top pay to start. I laughed him out of the office. To become a first class machinist takes a decade or more at least.

Do I work as hard as the people who work for me? No I do not. I have risked my money on a gamble that my skill as a manager would translate into a successful business. My gamble paid off. I make much more than my highest paid employee. The justification for this is twofold. The gamble I refered to and keeping 60 middle class employees with work. That my friend is a stressful position to be in. Making sure I don't make a bad decision that will cost these talented people their job.

reply to post by byteshertz


With all due respect, most of your post is a load of crap. I don't think that EVERYONE who makes a good living deserves it, there are lucky people who have been in the right place at the right time.

Those who are working the butts off but not making a good wage, whats keeping them from finding another job that pays better.

I see a lot of people on this site who bitch about their position in life, I got an idea. GET OFF THE SOCIAL WEBSITES AND DO SOME RESEARCH ABOUT GOOD JOBS. How about going to a technical school??
There are plenty of ways to work hard AND smart.

Originally posted by Fedge
Only read the first page of replies and stopped before throwing up.

Some people hold themselves in high esteem, thats for sure.

Capitalism is not a path that can lead humanity to happiness as a whole.

But i guess all the guys earning enough to buy 10 cars per year dont give a crap about others. Or they wouldnt be doing so. :/

That s one of many issues we will have to deal with in order to evolve to a more harmonized humanity.

More emotion based lunacy.

Socialism is not a path that can lead humanity to freedom, or happiness as a whole.

reply to post by scotticus prime


Hi scotticus,

Thanks for the great post. I actually agree with what you are saying because I saw exactly where I was going wrong after writing my post. The $200k thing drew people in but it was distracting people from what I was really trying to say but having trouble expressing, which was:
The middle class is shrinking, eventually 1% of the people will own 90% of the wealth, already they own 40% (from memory). So the point I am was trying to make in the beginning of this gigantic thread was that telling people they are lazy is not the way to go, because as the middle class shrinks our future generations will find it harder and harder to survive. This is what people are forgetting because it is happening slowly over time... the game is made this way and eventually 99% of people will be starving and struggling to survive while the top 1% will live a life of complete luxuary, and then - and only then will people realise they have been duped by a system that has been closing in on their past generations so long over such a long period of time they never noticed it happening. Grandad was so busy telling his grandkids they were lazy he did not realise that they had half wealth actually available to them that he did - because grandad fought against the odds he assumes that everyone should have to not considering that the odds are just getting harder and harder to beat and that it is his attitude towards the system that is actually what is keeping it in place..
I think I said that right...

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


Yes. They can.. In the US, there's a number of ways to pay for it. Sure you'll rack up some debt. Debt that can be paid off when you make over 100k a year easily.

I found this thread surprising by how many people replied supporting the notion that "if you work hard, you get your just rewards" In truth, thats how it should be, but i think these posters missed the OP's reality check that states that this is NOT the way it is. For example, flipping burgers for 40hrs a week, this job is physical labour (Which cannot be done sitting down) It is also monotonous and couldn’t really be classed as rewarding in anyway. Lets not forget, your very unlikely to receive any sort of company bonus for making so many burgers in a limited time, and neither are you likely to get any thanks or gratitude from your employers.
So in short, this job is boring, not rewarding, bad for your long term health (having to stand up for long periods of time, limiting your circulation) and its also low paid, giving you just enough money to pay for the BASICS of life. In effect, this job enables you to live like a slave, and no matter how hard you work, how many burgers you flip, you still wont come out on top at the end of the month because you are paid a base rate for X amount of hours and after so much wage earned, you are taxed. Yes, this is a pyramid system and the working class are increasingly boxed in.
Let me explain.
If you are born working class, you go to a state school. You'll find early on in your education if that if you show no natural talent for anything being taught to you and if your parents have little to no involvement in your education, you are forgotten about and left to fend for your own education. This usually results in kids not bothering to try and overcome the boundary and so they misbehave instead. That is, i admit, a generalisation but you get the jist of what i'm saying.
Now, society has evolved into a circus to which you need a micky mouse degree to work in a coffee shop, so not only are the chances against you in the education system, they are also against you in the world of work. And lets not forget that in order to get into a management position you need to have GCSE's and A-levels.

But what i find REALY irritating, is that society refuse's to accept that there are those who dont want to progress into management. There are those who DONT want the responsibility for so and so. These are people that are more then willing to work 40hrs a week to pay their way in life, but dont want to put in all the extra's because they get nothing from it.
Can someone please explain to me why you cant work 40's a week in a minimum wage job and live COMFORTABLY? Why is that IMPOSSIBLE?

Moving on, lets not forget exactly where outsourced jobs go - To the working class of other countries. The working class of Indonesia work HARD. VERY HARD. they leave their villages to find work and save up to see their kids ONCE a year. These people work 14hr shifts, they are sacked for not working fast enough, judged by how many products that make in a certain time span, and the money that they get pays for a roof and some food - NOTHING ELSE. Thats wrong. Thats capitalism.
Capitalism exploits the system it sets up. The truth is very simple, more people are DISADVANTAGED by capitalism compared to those that gain from it. So why are we using this system still? Because alot of people are under the impression that if you work hard, you get rewarded. Can someone please go say that to the face of someone chained to a sowing machine so i can see them swing for you and your ignorance.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


If the jobs they get don't pay comparatively better than local jobs, they wouldn't want to work for outsourced companies. And if they get paid better, they can save more money and spend more on goods and services in their own country to, leading to economic growth.

It's funny how the same people who embrace socialism support policies that prevent equity between the first and third world.

reply to post by 547000


I cant see how working a low paid job in a 3rd world country promotes any sort of equality to the first world. It seems to me that its picking the lesser of two evils and then having someone tell you how "Lucky" you are to be able to work your ass off for practically nothing.
Lets not forget, these workers have no safty net either. The companies they work for treat them like slaves and lets not forget, slaves are expendable. If one leaves, another is waiting to take their place.
I suppose it really comes down to how you look at it. Personally i take a Marxist view, perhaps you sir/madam take my arch nemisis functionalist perspective.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


Compared to what they're used to, it's beneficial for them, or they wouldn't want to work there over local companies.

Of course it's beneficial for them. Do you expect the living conditions to magically shoot up? Economic growth takes time. On one hand people say outsourcing is bad, on the other hand these same people quibble the disparity when those very actions lower the gap.

reply to post by 547000


I dont think its uncommon for people to mess with the figure to prove their point. I accept that the situation isnt clear cut but i also thing that the world could be managed much more effectivly on a financial level if we shared more. It would certainly lift more people out of poverty and even out the ever increasing wage gap.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
reply to post by 547000

 

I dont think its uncommon for people to mess with the figure to prove their point. I accept that the situation isnt clear cut but i also thing that the world could be managed much more effectivly on a financial level if we shared more. It would certainly lift more people out of poverty and even out the ever increasing wage gap.

While at the same time depriving others out of their rightfully earned fruits of labor.

ok, lets share. Should I send you my address so you can send me $1,000?

reply to post by BigTimeCheater


I think you miss what i'm saying. I beleive that if you work hard then you should recieve a hard workers wage. I am merely pointing out how the system exploits people. These people in factories DO work hard, and there reward is simply a roof over their heads and an adequate amount of food - This in a time when we are so technologically advanced that we really DONT need this system to which someone must be empoverished (Living on the basics) so that someone else can be lifted above the others and have a CONSIDERATE amount of expendable income.

I am in no way condoning communism, but merely saying that the system we have in place is outdated, counter-productive and unnessesary. When i say share the wealth, i mean give people the option to work 40 hours, earn a decent income and not have to struggle all the way through life. I dont understand why many people believe that that concept is impossible.
Everyone who works works hard - You have to. If you dont you loose your job. simple.

reply to post by byteshertz


My personal opinion, my wife and I need to bring in 75,000 per year in order to live in a large city. The sad fact, if I moved to Alberta, bought a couple of horses and lived how I would WANT to live, I would only need to make 20,000-30,000 per year in order to live the same way.

Taxes are killing us.

We think we need to make 200,000 because it turns into 120,000, and we take that money and spend it, and pay HST on everything, now that 120,000 is actually 108,000 of spendable money. Now with that 108,000 we are paying interest rates on our mortages, car loans, credit cards and fee's that dont honor the reciprocation of energy.

So really, how much actual MONEY is a person making these days?

We are being SUCKED dry ladies and gentlemen, and when the day comes that I choose to weep for the lack of prosperity in our country tears will not come, for they were drunk by the elite long ago.

Now watch as I bleed to death.

I say let the system fall.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


And what precisely do you consider a decent wage?

Should a low to no skill toilet scrubber earn as much as a carpenter? As a doctor?

If people are unhappy with their wages they are free to either find other employment that compensates them an amount they find acceptable, or obtain the skills necessary to make themselves more marketable.

I dont really work hard at all, and make a pretty damn good living.

lol @ this thread

how does anyone in our country save for the homeless have it that bad and even they have outlets to pursue ? - how many people are starving or living outdoors or dying young as a percentage compared to any other time in our history.

Arent these the most important things not income ?

that being said to the poster I would ask how many people do you actually know on welfare fighting hard to make something of themselves ? how many people do you know at all without being unbiased that deserve anything else ?

I've met quite a few unfortunate people and the good majority simply deserve it by there own actions. Wake up and see the difference between helpless and clueless.