Freemasonry, secret or not?

reply to post by network dude


It seems like you have an aversion to frank sexual discussion.

The connection between the occult and sexual expression is an intimate one, and you are going to have to confront it sooner or later.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Salvador Allende and Augusto Pinochet (the man who executed a CIA-funded coup against him) were both French Lodge Freemasons, as were Toussaint L'Ouverture, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

I applaud your continuing education in Masonic history and recognizing some of our various nitpickings. That said, can you cite your source on Castro's membership. (I'm curious about Lenin's as well, but one battle at a time...)

Here are some interesting links on Masonry in Cuba:
from Chris Hodapp
An article about some of the history
PDF of an article from the late 60's published by one of the Masonic research societies

Thanks.

I've long held that Lenin, Marx, & Castro could not be Masons because they were atheists. As you point out, they could be GOdF affiliated, but I've never seen any evidence supporting such claims.

reply to post by JoshNorton


These are things that I've picked up over many years, not things that I picked up a half-hour ago on Freemasonry Watch.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by network dude

 

It seems like you have an aversion to frank sexual discussion.

The connection between the occult and sexual expression is an intimate one, and you are going to have to confront it sooner or later.

Apparently I am not well versed in the sex magick part of masonry should it exist. I have never heard of any sexual connection either with our symbolism of actions. Masonry being a fraternity, and me being heterosexual, well, lets just say not compatible. I have heard all about sex magic with other occult schools such as OTO but even then, only by people here discussing it. So in conclusion, I don't fear the conversation, I just don't see it's relevance.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The GOdF are active outside of England and the US, and its members have created revolutionary groups such as the Jacobins, the International Workers of The World, the Bolsheviks and the Bolivarians. Salvador Allende and Augusto Pinochet (the man who executed a CIA-funded coup against him) were both French Lodge Freemasons, as were Toussaint L'Ouverture, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

Incorrect. Salvadore Allende was a regular Mason, and a Past Master. However, Pinochet, Castro, and Lenin were *not* Masons of any sort, and Pinochet is noted to have persecuted Masons. The Grand Orient of France had no relations with the Bolsheviks, which grew out of the left wing of the Russian Social Democratic Party.

The Jesuits have had a hand in creating the York Rite degrees, the Scottish Rite degrees and the degrees for French Masonry.

There is absolutely no evidence that any Jesuits had anything to do with any form of Masonry, although this myth is popular with some conspiracy theorists.

As a model they used the six degrees of the Ramsay Rite, created by Chevalier Ramsay, who was a Scottish Presbyterian living in France.

Ramsay was a Universalist, not a Presbyterian. Also, he did not create any Masonic degrees.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


Thanks for that
Second line

reply to post by TheLoneArcher


Yeah but you have to realize that the conferring of a degre...I mean the outside world will never know no matter how many Masons break their oath. The ones who have broken their oaths were never really high up in Masonry. You must understand that with Masonry the sky is the limit...literally and that is all I will say.

Originally posted by KeithClark
The ones who have broken their oaths were never really high up in Masonry.

And how do you know that?

You must understand that with Masonry the sky is the limit...literally and that is all I will say.

Ah, so you really don't know anything and have no proof, but want to wave it around as a "I, a non Mason, know things about Masonry that people who've been Masons for 20 or 30 or 50 years don't even know, because I'm special" Right. See how far that gets you on ATS...

Originally posted by KeithClark
reply to post by TheLoneArcher

 

Yeah but you have to realize that the conferring of a degre...I mean the outside world will never know no matter how many Masons break their oath. The ones who have broken their oaths were never really high up in Masonry. You must understand that with Masonry the sky is the limit...literally and that is all I will say.

you should check out this guy. He was as high ranking as they get, and he doesn't like masonry at all.

score one for your side.

Secret and not secret at the same time. Like any secret organization, it maintains a veneer of publicity. Folklore always helps if there is a serious leak.

Freemasonry has taken the line that it is not a secret organization but an organization with secrets. I would say it is a private organization that places a high value on its privacy.

Quite frankly, what happens in a Masonic lodge (or any other Masonic organization) is only the business of those who are members. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I have never been at a Masonic meeting where anything was discussed or occurred which could be the business of anyone except a member or someone applying for membership -- unless you count the many charities that we've voted to give donations to.

So... secret? Hardly. Our meeting places are well marked, we're listed in the phone book, we often put the names and photos of our leadership on the web. But, despite so-called 'expose writers', we do still have secrets. But no one outside of the membership has any moral claim on any of those.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Dr Cosma

 

it'a a society with secrets. No you can't come in and see what's going on. It's a secret. No you can't have me tell you about the handshakes and passwords, it's a secret. No, you probably won't post your name, age, SSN, and mothers maiden name on ATS for all to see because..........wait for it..............you guessed it, it's a secret.

Aha!

So freemasonry secret or not?

Finally the answer is, secret.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by KeithClark
The ones who have broken their oaths were never really high up in Masonry.

And how do you know that?

You must understand that with Masonry the sky is the limit...literally and that is all I will say.

Ah, so you really don't know anything and have no proof, but want to wave it around as a "I, a non Mason, know things about Masonry that people who've been Masons for 20 or 30 or 50 years don't even know, because I'm special" Right. See how far that gets you on ATS...

Dude are you serious, I'm a businessman I could care less about my rep on ATS the only reason I joined the site is because I've been coming across the site for YEARS and finally decided to join since I now am a Mason. How do I know what I know? Because I am a MASON! I never said I knew things secret about Masonry I'm simply saying Masonry is a very rigid system. Sort of like the military (which I was a member of AS WELL). Do I know secrets hell yes but who doesn't? I know Masons in their 80's who have 50 year PINS! Who will never....dude your a waste of my time.

Originally posted by KeithClark
Dude are you serious, I'm a businessman I could care less about my rep on ATS the only reason I joined the site is because I've been coming across the site for YEARS and finally decided to join since I now am a Mason. How do I know what I know? Because I am a MASON! I never said I knew things secret about Masonry I'm simply saying Masonry is a very rigid system. Sort of like the military (which I was a member of AS WELL). Do I know secrets hell yes but who doesn't? I know Masons in their 80's who have 50 year PINS! Who will never....dude your a waste of my time.

I think we got off on the wrong foot. You came in here, replying to a post made by a Mason, saying, well, I don't know what you were trying to say, honestly. It sounded a bit vague. I'm a Mason too, as are at least 8 or 10 of the other people who've replied to this thread. You posted a vague reply without introducing yourself, so I jumped to the wrong conclusions. My apologies.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Incorrect. Salvadore Allende was a regular Mason, and a Past Master. However, Pinochet, Castro, and Lenin were *not* Masons of any sort, and Pinochet is noted to have persecuted Masons. The Grand Orient of France had no relations with the Bolsheviks, which grew out of the left wing of the Russian Social Democratic Party.

This page says that Pinochet was a 2nd degree Mason: www.solidaridad.net...

This page says that he received the grade of "Captain" and was kicked out for nonattendance and nonpayment of dues: elmason.blogspot.com...

Castro didn't tear down the Grand Orient of Cuba, at which he was initiated during his early 20's.

The Bolsheviks were sponsored by Trotsky, who was a French lodge Freemason.

There is absolutely no evidence that any Jesuits had anything to do with any form of Masonry, although this myth is popular with some conspiracy theorists.

Conspiracy theorists such as Albert Mackey, right?

As a model they used the six degrees of the Ramsay Rite, created by Chevalier Ramsay, who was a Scottish Presbyterian living in France.

Ramsay was a Universalist, not a Presbyterian. Also, he did not create any Masonic degrees.

Wikipedia is not 100% correct. You should realize this.
www.chevalierramsay.be...
www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

reply to post by JoshNorton


Lemme guess, this is your individual opinion and not just another canned response.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by KeithClark
Dude are you serious, I'm a businessman I could care less about my rep on ATS the only reason I joined the site is because I've been coming across the site for YEARS and finally decided to join since I now am a Mason. How do I know what I know? Because I am a MASON! I never said I knew things secret about Masonry I'm simply saying Masonry is a very rigid system. Sort of like the military (which I was a member of AS WELL). Do I know secrets hell yes but who doesn't? I know Masons in their 80's who have 50 year PINS! Who will never....dude your a waste of my time.

I think we got off on the wrong foot. You came in here, replying to a post made by a Mason, saying, well, I don't know what you were trying to say, honestly. It sounded a bit vague. I'm a Mason too, as are at least 8 or 10 of the other people who've replied to this thread. You posted a vague reply without introducing yourself, so I jumped to the wrong conclusions. My apologies.

Let the record reflect that there is an anti-anti-Mason bias among the Freemasons on ATS

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Let the record reflect that there is an anti-anti-Mason bias among the Freemasons on ATS

Yes. I, a Mason, have issues with anti-Masons. It's true. I admit it. Is this a surprise to anyone?

reply to post by JoshNorton


It's a problem when it colors your good judgment.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


I am certainly not anti-anti-Mason. I am here to help those that are not Masons or are anti-Mason understand that we are not evil, devil worshipers, or trying to takle over the world.

I for one, and I hope I can speak for other Masons here, am here to help.