A theory on how eternal life could be possible

Originally posted by spy66
According to my knowledge. The infinite is stationary. It doesn't move. Light is a energy that is expanding at a set speed. If it is expanding at a set speed it ca not be infinite.

There is one more thing that amuses me. You two think that if you travel at a set speed . You would see millions of years passing by every second?

How could you do that, if years are determined by earths rotations around the sun and not by your speed and direction?

In the ancient past, calendars were indeed derived from astronomical motions as you suggest, days from the Earth's rotation, months from the moons orbit, and years from the Earth's orbit. However we no longer define time that way.

One second is now defined as:

www.thefreedictionary.com...

The time needed for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations.

So the seconds, days months, and years on Earth will pass normally, with that many cesium-133 oscillations per second.

The astronaut traveling at .999999 the speed of light also measures one second as 9 ,192,631,770 complete oscillations of Cesium-133, but NOT the Cesium-133 on Earth, the Cesium-133 on his spaceship. So that's how he can measure one year according to his spaceship clock and see 707 years go by on Earth, as you say.

I don't know of much in the universe that's truly "stationary", it seems like just about everything we see is moving relative to something else, based on our measurements of Doppler shift of starlight. The earth zips around the sun, the sun rotates around the milky way, and the milky way is moving through space on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy.

However you have a point that not all energy radiating from a source will truly be eternal energy, much of it will eventually strike an object ( like the mirror of one of our telescopes) and be absorbed. But even then, neither matter nor energy is truly created or destroyed, merely converted from one form to another, so in the E=mc^2 sense, I guess you could say it's eternal.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spy66
According to my knowledge. The infinite is stationary. It doesn't move. Light is a energy that is expanding at a set speed. If it is expanding at a set speed it ca not be infinite.

There is one more thing that amuses me. You two think that if you travel at a set speed . You would see millions of years passing by every second?

How could you do that, if years are determined by earths rotations around the sun and not by your speed and direction?

In the ancient past, calendars were indeed derived from astronomical motions as you suggest, days from the Earth's rotation, months from the moons orbit, and years from the Earth's orbit. However we no longer define time that way.

One second is now defined as:

www.thefreedictionary.com...

The time needed for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations.

So the seconds, days months, and years on Earth will pass normally, with that many cesium-133 oscillations per second.

The astronaut traveling at .999999 the speed of light also measures one second as 9 ,192,631,770 complete oscillations of Cesium-133, but NOT the Cesium-133 on Earth, the Cesium-133 on his spaceship. So that's how he can measure one year according to his spaceship clock and see 707 years go by on Earth, as you say.

I don't know of much in the universe that's truly "stationary", it seems like just about everything we see is moving relative to something else, based on our measurements of Doppler shift of starlight. The earth zips around the sun, the sun rotates around the milky way, and the milky way is moving through space on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy.

However you have a point that not all energy radiating from a source will truly be eternal energy, much of it will eventually strike an object ( like the mirror of one of our telescopes) and be absorbed. But even then, neither matter nor energy is truly created or destroyed, merely converted from one form to another, so in the E=mc^2 sense, I guess you could say it's eternal.

edit on 11-10-2010 by Arbitrageur because: fix typo

I have a question regarding this. If light is C a constant no matter where it is. How would you determine c inside a moving air craft space ship?

Would the light inside the craft move faster then the light outside the craft? Or would the light inside the craft move at the same speed as the light outside the craft?

If the craft is moving at .999999 the speed of light would the light inside the craft move 300000km/s faster than the .999999 speed of the craft?

To me this is important know if i am to calculate the actual time inside the moving craft by the atomic clock.

My question is. Which c do i use. The c outside to craft or the one inside the craft or doesn't it really matter?

Originally posted by spy66
My question is. Which c do i use. The c outside to craft or the one inside the craft or doesn't it really matter?

It doesn't matter if you are just looking at speed, c is the same inside and outside the craft, it's constant in all reference frames.

Where it's different is if you look at the frequency (or say color, of the light). When a freight train blares its horn, the sound travels at the speed of sound in all directions, but the frequency of the sound is NOT the same in all directions if the freight train is moving, that's why the pitch drops after the freight train passes us, called the Doppler effect.

Light coming from the spaceship is affected the same way, the speed is the same in all directions, but not the frequency. This enables us to tell if a light source is moving toward or away from us:

Relativistic Doppler effect
Here is the way color of the light is affected when the light source is traveling at 70% the speed of light:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48f80874a9c3.jpg[/atsimg]

Diagram 1. A source of light waves moving to the right with velocity 0.7c. The frequency is higher on the right, and lower on the left.

The speed c is the same in all directions though, only the frequency (or wavelength) varies.

For me, understanding this Doppler shift was one of the keys to understanding relativity.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


But you are not answering my question.

Does light travel at the same speed "inside" the craft as the light traveling outside it?

If the craft is moving at .999999 the speed of light. What speed does light have inside the craft compared to the light traveling outside the craft?

EDIT to add: If the craft is traveling at .999999 the speed of light. Does the light inside the ship travel 300 000km/second faster than the ship?

You do have a light source inside the ship to monitor the atomic clock.

There are two light sources one outside the ship and one inside. The one inside the ship is monitoring the clock. The other is a reference to the ships speed.

Originally posted by spy66
Does light travel at the same speed "inside" the craft as the light traveling outside it?

Light travels at the same speed everywhere, inside the ship and outside the ship and everywhere else.

EDIT to add: If the craft is traveling at .999999 the speed of light. Does the light inside the ship travel 300 000km/second faster than the ship?

No.

Going back to the Earth to Pluto example, you're in your ship passing Earth at 0.999999c and you shine a light at Pluto. The light you shined at Pluto only arrives at Pluto about a fiftieth of a second before your ship does, so the light isn't going much faster than your ship.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

But you are not answering my question.

Does light travel at the same speed "inside" the craft as the light traveling outside it?

If the craft is moving at .999999 the speed of light. What speed does light have inside the craft compared to the light traveling outside the craft?

EDIT to add: If the craft is traveling at .999999 the speed of light. Does the light inside the ship travel 300 000km/second faster than the ship?

You do have a light source inside the ship to monitor the atomic clock.

There are two light sources one outside the ship and one inside. The one inside the ship is monitoring the clock. The other is a reference to the ships speed.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Yes he did. C is constant. Its relative depending on your frame of reference.

This is what you don't seem to understand. You are not thinking outside the box.

Originally posted by docpoco

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

But you are not answering my question.

Does light travel at the same speed "inside" the craft as the light traveling outside it?

If the craft is moving at .999999 the speed of light. What speed does light have inside the craft compared to the light traveling outside the craft?

EDIT to add: If the craft is traveling at .999999 the speed of light. Does the light inside the ship travel 300 000km/second faster than the ship?

You do have a light source inside the ship to monitor the atomic clock.

There are two light sources one outside the ship and one inside. The one inside the ship is monitoring the clock. The other is a reference to the ships speed.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Yes he did. C is constant. Its relative depending on your frame of reference.

This is what you don't seem to understand. You are not thinking outside the box.

Well you cant think out side the box if you want to be accurate.

Can you prove to me that a light source inside the space craft travels at exactly the same speed as the light traveling out side the ship. No you can't.

Because, that all depends on the angle your space ship is traveling compared to the direction of light. The light source inside the ship might have a different angle compared to the light source out side the ship. Unless your ship is traveling at the exact angle the light is heading. Have you ever thought about that outside your box?

The light source that measures time might be observing the atomic clock at a different angle then the ship is heading or the light is heading. Have you thought about that?

Does the experiment of time dilation mention anything about this at all?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spy66
Does light travel at the same speed "inside" the craft as the light traveling outside it?

Light travels at the same speed everywhere, inside the ship and outside the ship and everywhere else.

Ok. So the light would be traveling faster inside the ship than the light is traveling outside the ship. Since light travels c everywhere?

The ship travels .999999 the speed of light. So the light would travel 300 000 km/s faster than the ship?

It would have to do that if C is the same everywhere.

Originally posted by spy66
Ok. So the light would be traveling faster inside the ship than the light is traveling outside the ship. Since light travels c everywhere?

The ship travels .999999 the speed of light. So the light would travel 300 000 km/s faster than the ship?

It would have to do that if C is the same everywhere.

For the third time, NO!!!

Light travels the same speed everywhere, which means it's NOT faster inside the ship than outside the ship. If light left the .999999c ship at c, then an earth observer would see the light traveling at 1.999999c and that's impossible.

Back to the Earth to Pluto example. The .999999c ship is just above the earth and shines a white light at pluto, and some guy on Earth shines a white light at Pluto, and the spaceship is headed to Pluto, when Pluto is 300 light minutes away from Earth.

Here's what an observer on Pluto would see:

300 minutes later, they'd see a white light from Earth and a blue shifted light from the spaceship arrive at the exact same time! The light from the spaceship doesn't arrive any sooner than the one from Earth, the only difference is, it's blue-shifted, dramatically.

one fiftieth of a second later, the spaceship would arrive.

To put it another way, the speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s. If the spaceship is going at 0.999999c, it's going at 299,792,158 m/s

So the light is only going 300m/s faster than the spaceship, not roughly 300,000,000m/s faster than the spaceship, as some people thought before Einstein.

Originally posted by spy66
Because, that all depends on the angle your space ship is traveling compared to the direction of light.

No, the angle has no effect at all on speed, only frequency, wavelength, and color, three different terms relating to the same aspect of light. See the color shifting illustration I posted above.

Just like the train blowing its horn, the speed of sound is the same in all directions (assuming no wind), the sound doesn't travel any faster in the direction of the train, but the movement of the train does affect the pitch (or frequency) of the sound.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Well than explain how time would behave in this instance:

In this image you have the ship traveling at an angle compared to the light.



The light inside this ship would at that angle have a different speed and angle compared to the lights heading out side the ship. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by spy66
The light inside this ship would at that angle have a different speed and angle compared to the lights heading out side the ship. Don't you agree?

I agree if the angle is different the angle is different, not that the velocity (or speed) is different.

To simplify it, look at sunlight hitting the ship at exactly right angles to the spaceship's direction of travel. The velocity component of that light in the direction of the spaceship is zero. That doesn't mean the light is traveling at zero, it's still traveling at c. So the speed hasn't changed, only the angle has.
And if you were going to compare a light shined inside that ship to light coming from the sun, you'd look at light rays coming from the sun that parallel the direction of travel of the ship, because if you look at any other light rays, they won't arrive at the same destination, so you can't really compare them.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spy66
The light inside this ship would at that angle have a different speed and angle compared to the lights heading out side the ship. Don't you agree?

I agree if the angle is different the angle is different, not that the velocity (or speed) is different.

Ok we have finally agreed that angles play a role in all this. We also agree that light speed is light speed.

Now i want you to tell me at what angle would you determine correct time. If you where to measure the time on the atomic clock. If you travel at the angle my model shows. Or doesn't it matter at what angle you measure time compared to the ships heading?

Does energy expansion and heading matter when calculating correct time?

EDIT to ad.

In my model the external light and the ships internal light is only equal in speed at one angle. In case you didn't know.

Originally posted by spy66
Ok we have finally agreed that angles play a role in all this. We also agree that light speed is light speed.

The angle determines the color (or doppler shift) of the light, not the speed.

Now i want you to tell me at what angle would you determine correct time. If you where to measure the time on the atomic clock. If you travel at the angle my model shows. Or doesn't it matter at what angle you measure time compared to the ships heading?

Does energy expansion and heading matter when calculating correct time?

Starting with the last question first, the "heading" doesn't really affect the velocity of light, just the doppler shift, or color. The relative velocities between the two reference frames is what affects the clocks. In your illustration, let's say one reference frame is the sun, the other is the spaceship.If you have the same relative velocities in different headings, the only difference you'll measure in light from the sun is the color, not the speed. The clocks likewise aren't affected by the heading, in general, if the headings all pass the sun at an equal distance from the sun but in different directions. If you choose a heading that takes you closer to the sun, that will affect the clock because the sun's gravity will slow the clock down more the closer you get to the sun, but that's only about distance from the sun and not really about heading.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur


The speed c is the same in all directions though, only the frequency (or wavelength) varies.

For me, understanding this Doppler shift was one of the keys to understanding relativity.

edit on 11-10-2010 by Arbitrageur because: fix typo

Great.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48f80874a9c3.jpg[/atsimg]

This image describes how light would be observed through a window at 70% the speed of light. If you traveled in the same direction as the light. Right?

It would look different if you traveled toward the light.

I have two questions to ask:

1. What would the light look like if you traveled at a 30 degree angle, of the direction which the light is heading?

You certainly wouldn't get the same specter as the image you displayed?

2. If there are no windows on this space ship. What would the light look like inside the space craft if the walls were white, and the ship has its own light source smack in the center of the ship?

reply to post by spy66
As long as the questions at least pertained to clocks and how much slower we would age at relativistic speeds, I felt that was not too far off the topic of how we can age more slowly.

Your latest questions are excellent and I'd love to know the answers myself but since they don't involve clocks I would suggest you start a thread titled something like "some questions about travel at relativistic speeds" or whatever you plan to ask about, and IM me a link to your thread and I'll answer there what I know.

You are thinking from only a 3 dimensional perspective. There are four more for you to consider and until you know what the Creator knows, you will never know the answer. reply to post by docpoco