Are we even really real?

I've thought about this a lot recently thanks to a number of urm, bizarre experiences I've had over the course of the last year or so.

I highly recommend reading Chang Tzu, it's a 500BC (ish) Chinese text written by a philosopher of various names depending on what source you accept as true, and I personally think it's an amazing piece of writing.

Directly addressing the topic is the butterfly idea, which you've likely heard of before....

"Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi. Between Zhuangzi and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things."

He also raises the point, as several have in this thread, that you'd likely go mad trying to contemplate everything. To paraphrase from the wiki page...

quote from en.wikipedia.org...
...arguing that life is limited and the knowledge to be gained is unlimited, to use the limited to pursue the unlimited, he said, was foolish.

I'd suggest not worrying about it too much - whether or not this is all real or not is irrellevant in the sense that *you* are here. It's a question of what you're going to do. Questioning the Game beyond being aware you should question it will ultimately get you nowhere.

I have a whole enormous list of books to recommend on this subject if you're genuinely into 'proper' philosophy, I'll compile a list if anyone's interested?

To give my 2p, I'm reasonably convinced that our life here is a stage in a process, we're larvae if you like. This place is real in the sense that our monkey-suits only have the ability to see a limited aspect of what is around us, and in any case, you're here, so deal with it as best you can. You won't know if there's anything else until after your body fails you.

There's a common thread through various philosophies and religions going back to Egyptian times that death is not the end, and the suggestions about what comes next can be interpreted to be almost exactly the same if you take a metaphorical view on the literal texts.

Having 'sort of' had a NDE, I'd strongly suggest it's nothing to worry about. Whether or not 'here' is real or not doesn't matter, all that matters is your experience of it, and how you interact with others experiencing the same place.

I figure that when death comes either something will happen and I'll deal with that as best I can (I'm personally hoping for a 'Welcome to Level 2' sign ), or nothing will happen, in which case I'll be unaware of it so it won't matter.

I also accept that I'm not going to figure everything out - my monkey suit just isn't capable of taking in and processing everything there is to know, so I've decided to keep it really really simple... do positive things, be aware of others around me and how my actions & words affect them, and to try and create an environment for others to do positive, creative and interesting things.

That way, hopefully my time here will be constructive, helpful and positive. I suspect we're all leaves on a tree, unaware of the tree. It's best to be nice to the other leaves.

of course you are really real.

I know this, because when you die, you cease to be real, atleast here you do.

I ask myself these questions on a daily basis. I come up with all kinds of different ideas, but the saddest part of existence is not knowing a damn thing. That is not to say existence is sad, it's wonderful to exist, but not knowing the questions of the ages is a helpless feeling. I really enjoyed reading your post, it was very honest and open ended. If we all could be that honest and lay it out there on a grander scale, who knows what we could come up with?

reply to post by highlyoriginal


Hello highlyoriginal-

I have only gone to church I would say around 20 times in my life and i'm in my 30's. I have seen many strange things as i'm sure most people do during their lives. I have seen the future 2 times in my life 15 to 30 minutes before it happened. I have had dreams that come true, I have also had 2 thoughts just this last week actually where I said I want something and it came true once within 15 minutes the other took about 30 minutes (I was trying an experiment about trying to make what I wanted to happen, both were very simple it was just I wanted two different people who I usually don't see during the day to come to me and they did.) Now, anyone can say it was all chance and i'm crazy but where I met both of them were in places I would usually not find them. We have the power to do many things but we have put chains on ourselves that have stopped us in believing.

"Real" is what you make it, or what people make you think is real. Some people try and tell you the truth to help you find your "reality" and others try and use you to make you part of their "reality" (the government and media is an example). Are we even really real? Well I know i'm thinking so yes I am real and my thinking is part of everything that is.

Added- This week I had made a thread about "reality" if you care to read it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 24-7-2010 by Trudge]

OP,

What if I told you all human life was a series of concentric circles of illusion collapsing about a center of purpose, that we are in a chaos of spiralling energy that nature has constructed for human activity and truth wasn't terribly important.

The power of these systems you despise is a facbrication of perception that has been perpetrated on the masses for a specific purpose.

"I must be cruel to be kind."

Truth is, the power of the individual trumps everything else.

Is it "I think therefore I am" or is it really "I am, therefore I think".

Getting punched in the face seems real enough.

Everything is a subjective perspective made by an individual carrying around a bunch of personal baggage. That's why witnesses give differing stories on an identical event.

I believe there is an objective reality that human senses have adapted to enough to survive in it. How accurate is our perception of reality? Its low-res and fuzzy at best.

There's a very interesting "new" theory developed by Vadim Zeland. It's called Transsurfing. Have no time to write about it, just google it if interested. It's very much to do with what reality is and isn't.

reply to post by eightfold


Very nice post.

I think what sparked me to actually make this thread subconsciously is that the last few days (3 days or so?) I've been having dreams that are so realistic I honestly am waking up wondering if they have occurred or not.

For example, I got back from the bar the other night (and please don't bring up 'Oh well you must have been drunk' blah blah blah) and I passed out on my friends couch. There was a chick there with us after I fell asleep I swore I her talking and them having a conversation, and then I woke up and they were still asleep. I asked them about it and they both swore to me the conversation never took place, and I don't trust anyone in this world other than this one friend so I know it was not a lie.

Maybe it was from a different/overlapping universe that this actually happened in and I was able to be conscious of it, I don't know. But things like that have been happening every night, and what's even more bizarre is that I'm able to perceive things in these 'dreams' like time which is not something you usually can.

I've had OOBE's many times, but this is different and to say that is even more odd to me because I thought I was well learned in this area, but obviously no one is because you constantly have new experiences.

reply to post by Gumerk


Thank you

After thinking about these types of things, my mind just opens up so much that I am just honest with everyone - an open book per-say.

I do not lie ever, for it bothers me like no other, and when someone asks me a question I'm usually straight forward and blunt (depending on the situation).

I do take pride in my openness and honesty, so thanks again.

reply to post by highlyoriginal


You ask some very good questions, one's that are sure to be continualy asked far into the future, if not forever. Try gaining meditative concentration and pondering on these questions, it may help clear a few of the simpler things up.

reply to post by MichiganSwampBuck


I think, Rene Descartes would of punched you in the face. But you make a good point, because baby's are almost (if not completely) helpless and as we grow we learn to think more efficiently. Then when we are 'grown', we cannot remember anything about what it was like to be a baby, so "I am, therefore I think" makes sense too. But "I think, therefore I am" is much deeper of a theory and would relate to coming before being a baby, sooo.... yea,

[edit on 24-7-2010 by LifeIsEnergy]

OP, nice discussion.
I'm not sure exactly how this fits in, but the imagination can cause physical effects, for example, imagining falling from a great height causes me to actually feel the panic and rush in my body. I'm not sure if everyone else in the world has a body unable to tell the difference between imaginings and experiences, but the fact that its all electrical impulses in either case does beg the question, "what is real?"
If perception is actually projection, how could we tell the difference? Perhaps a progressive unfolding of logical inferences based on quantum mechanics will provide a key to understanding. Or maybe not.
One take I enjoyed:
www.fredalanwolf.com...


[edit on 24-7-2010 by joechip]

I was asking myself the same question again just the other day . I was taken by surprise by the right vs left brain test with the spinning dancer. My husband and I both did the experiment . We managed to change the direction of the dancer at will and direct her where we want . I realized that what he was seeing was not what i was seeing .

I would recommend you try it :

en.wikipedia.org...

Both myself and my husband had some Salvia experiences ,,and I know you will say oo mind altering does not count ..but I would ask those people ..why ? The answers you get and experiences you have ring true ..feel right in the sense that sometimes I feel as I am here limited, in a box in a cage that "my spirit " is incarcerated ....Sometimes I see it as a game ..this reality or whatever you want to call it is a game ..we have to play it the best we can we have to gain from it and evolve out of it

"Row, row, row your boat
Gently Down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream. "

One should take into consideration all possibilities and live the best he can he sees and he feels .There are some laws that are valid while here I have noticed . I do not know if I just see it that way or everybody notice these rules : In general being good , genuinely good , loving know right from wrong ,being happy and joyful towards life , bringing happiness and love to others ..these rules that apply in so many ways ..they are tools ..tools for the soul.

And yes "whatever your mind can conceive and believe you can achieve " Is TRUE beyond our imagination but do not forget "the word BELIEVE" in that sentence is absolutely the key .

In regards to religion and believes as Carl Jung would say they are maybe like a disease of the conscience mind , our unconscious mind is the one we have to tap in . There you will find answers ..that is your instinct ..that voice that some times tells you do this don't do that ..i told you so...this is going to happen..and all that I assume you know what I am talking about .

In living here there is no secret ..There is no question that after this there is something else ..I know it and we all know it is inside us you just have to listen with care and feel . In what form or where or how or why is after we shed this carnal cage I guess is part of the big game ....Do you think we would make any progress or would be any fun to know everything ...everything ...No would be no purpose to any of these .....

Even if we believe in the holographic universe I assume that as long as we are here reading this and writing and sharing thoughts and concerns this holographic universe does not matter.

Are you here now in from of this computer ...yes ..Is there more to this ...Yes should we stop asking questions NO ..we should never stop we have to pursue our questions till the end but do it with elegance and do not punish yourself whatever the answer is you may or may never find it but in the end ENJOY THE GAME !!!!!!

Thanks for all the replies, I was happy to see them - I didn't want flags/stars just responses and that's what I got.

I really do not know what sparked me to ask myself such things (it got much deeper for me personally than this post, which is saying a lot considering everything I said in the OP); it made me question everything, it lasted a full day until I finally let go and realized for now I need to sit back and figure things out along the way rather than try to get answers all at once.

It really will drive you nuts trying to deal with every possible question pounderable (yes I just made up that word, ha). Embrace love and freedom and help it spread like wildfire... that's the best thing we can do.

I don't think our reality is the "real" question,... sorry

I have always thought the question was 'what are we really?'.

Peace

[edit on 26-7-2010 by slane69]

highlyoriginal, Your threads are always a great read.

Adressing the OP, the word real is not real. okay my brain just officially exploded.... It's incredibly hard to write about this topic.

Reality is this. right here. Me typing these words, with a full moon looming overhead, hearing my dog walking around....

These things are my immediate "reality," and hey, I may not understand it, but I definitely like to be a part of it all.

-Sol