All Roads Lead to Rome

reply to post by orangetom1999


Orangetom...

This might be where proto and I split, but I am by no means an atheist.

I have a strong belief in God, but I do not go to church. I like to read about the early church and secret societies and the mimicry of the same Ritual in every religious tradition.

I do not know what I believe in the whole Christian/Jesus/God thing, but i have one tatoo of a cross on my body, and I got it when I was 18 to always remind of what's up.

We did not have this conversation nor did Proto start this thread on accident my well schooled friend.

Cheers and good journey.

reply to post by IAMIAM


You know....

It's funny IAMIAM, because I have a very large amount of respect for you, but when It comes to Freemasonry, your answers are typical.

They are cryptic, chicken-picked, and deceptive, just as I would expect from someone who belongs to a society to whom they have given a blood oath, which inevitably creates the desired US/THEM mentality.

I know that you can never reveal anything that is secret because you have sworn to do so.
And in a court of law that would call into question anything you say from that point forward.

This is also what allows for secrecy to exist in government by normalizing and reinforcing the idea....
And this is the mechanism of secret rule.

For those who have eyes, let them see.
For those who have ears, let them hear.

Originally posted by Josephus23
It's funny IAMIAM, because I have a very large amount of respect for you, but when It comes to Freemasonry, your answers are typical.

Freemasons are admonished in the first degree to not get into debates with those who would, through ignorance, criticise the order. Thus, I don't normally get into the discussion about it, nor do I follow conversations that do. So, if my answers are typical, what can I say?? Perhaps find someone who who views the fraternity with suspicion and there you will find the answers you want?

Originally posted by Josephus23
They are cryptic, chicken-picked, and deceptive, just as I would expect from someone who belongs to a society to whom they have given a blood oath, which inevitably creates the desired US/THEM mentality.

I try to answer all your questions as straight forward as I can. I said the only thing I won't discuss is the ritual. The only reason for this is because it will spoil it for future initiates. It's kinda like when someone tells you the plot to a movie that you have been waiting to see.

I will tell you this though. There is an US vs. THEM mentality amongst some Masons, and some non-Masons display it as well. It isn't universal though, and certainly not taught.

Originally posted by Josephus23
I know that you can never reveal anything that is secret because you have sworn to do so.
And in a court of law that would call into question anything you say from that point forward.

Oh come now my friend. We both know this argument doesn't stand a chance. Are we not BOTH against these courts? I do not know anyone who has told the whole truth before any court, nor do I know anyone who is capable if they wanted to. What is the Truth on any matter?

Originally posted by Josephus23
This is also what allows for secrecy to exist in government by normalizing and reinforcing the idea....
And this is the mechanism of secret rule.

For those who have eyes, let them see.
For those who have ears, let them hear.

My friend, secrecy is a fact of life. As long as you have government, there will be government secrets. Which is why I am an anarchist at heart.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by orangetom1999

 

Orangetom...

This might be where proto and I split, but I am by no means an atheist.

I have a strong belief in God, but I do not go to church. I like to read about the early church and secret societies and the mimicry of the same Ritual in every religious tradition.

I do not know what I believe in the whole Christian/Jesus/God thing, but i have one tatoo of a cross on my body, and I got it when I was 18 to always remind of what's up.

We did not have this conversation nor did Proto start this thread on accident my well schooled friend.

Cheers and good journey.

Josephus 23,

I too do not go to any meeting house per se. I am not into church organizations. I find most of them to be very shallow and teaching the pretty/feel good type of religion with patterns more closely following paganism.

I do not celebrate any holidays or birthdays. Not christmas, halloween, easter ..etc etc. All days are the same to me. They are His days..not mine.

This is just something I began to learn some years back when I stumbled across some things/questions which did not seem to add up.

For me the Christian is one on the inside ..not on the outside.

I too like history and looking for the patterns in history across the ages and also the rituals as part of the repeating history. I keep coming across the silent concept that someone or something out here does not want us to recognize the repeating of the patterns..the history.

One event which caught my interest was the recent visit by the President to India for the Festival of Lights. It reminded me of the Bush's and their Thousand Points of Light.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999


If all gods are the same god...and all religions are the same religion...than the son of the bond woman shall indeed be heir with the son of the free woman.

....

Exactly. this is the pagan principle here.
We are all brothers...brothers have the same father.

I have a different father. If we are all brothers...than the children of the bondwoman shall be heir with the children of the freewoman.

Issac and Ishmael had different mothers. But perhaps you are referencing the view of the Serpent Seed where Cain and Able are believed to have had different fathers. (?)

I used to think Abraham was just a psychotic deadbeat dad. It's not exactly normal to have a parent make you gather the sticks for your own altar burning and then tie you up and threaten to cut your throat. Was it really an act of "holy reverence" sacrifice to a god or a fit of rage and anger at the child? According to some commentaries, it is believed that Ishmael was the one that Abraham attempted to sacrifice and then changed his mind.

It's pretty cold to throw the mother of your first born and your child out into the wilderness. There must have been some reason. Scripture gives a subtle reference that something was wrong. Various translations and further commentaries allude to Ishmael having perhaps molested or tormented Issac. Because Ishmael was the older child and could exert influence and power over Issac, trouble was brewing due to some reason of Ishmael being a bad influence or an agitator.

reply to post by Josephus23


If I had to typify my beliefs and categorize them I would describe myself as an agnostic who is reserving judgement in relation to higher powers in the universe.

I know there are powers in the universe that we humans little understand and seldom study.

In large part because it would so far remove one from our 'shared' reality as to make sharing a reality problematic to the point of near impossibility.

One of the main things Rome has in fact done through religion is to impose a 'shared' reality that pretty much keeps everyone on the same page or not far from it.

The further you get from that page, no matter how valid and true your findings, the further away you get from that 'shared' reality.

One of the most powerful inducements Rome has, is that knowledge for those that dabble in such things, that you are in essence going to end up so far outside of the scope of reality as to not possibly be happy or able to fit into our 'shared' reality. Thus leaving you isolated, lonely, and dissacociated from most of society.

Most people fear this, because humans tend to need a herd or familiar environment and validation by and through that because we are highly socialized creatures.

However one important question remains is were we always intended to be such highly socialized creatures or have we basically been bred and indoctrinated into a co-dependent society where we are highly reliant on others, and that reliance takes a large degree of social skills to productively maintain.

When you think of the nomadic people's in the past, those one's who tended to roam isolated as individuals such as explorers and frontiersmen, sages and shamen, adventurers and outlaws, Rome has slowly created a world that no longer really has a place for such loners.

The last frontier really left to us is not space which we lack the science to reach, but the dimensional space and our metaphysical relation to it, in the space and time we do occupy.

Clearly this has fascinated such people as Crawley and Casey yet Rome does frown on these things most often labeled the occult and esoteric.

It takes the person away from that shared reality that Rome uses to impose it's control, by imposing how we view reality.

I won't, I can't, cut myself off from those infinite possibilities, as I just don't feel it's in my best interest. I don't explore the nether worlds much, I devote only a small portion of my time to it, but I would be unable to explore them at all, if I were to adopt that Roman concept of one all powerful God that controls everything.

There are some interesting things out there, frightening but also tantalizing, as there really is so much more to this story than we are being told or have any inkling of.

Whether Rome knows it, (I suspect it does) and is keeping it from us for it's own control, or our own protection is something I am not sure about.

We are limited to but one world within worlds but in fact we don't have to be, if we don't choose to be.

A rise in the Christian religion during the years of Rome's collapse was related to the church's explanation for the chaos- the world was being punished for the worship of false gods

In about 313 A.D. the church was a highly structed and disciplined organization, well able to exploit Constantine's desire for stability and unity in an empire that had grown increasingly divided.
Constantine needed a unifying state religion, and in Christianity he saw structures in place that would provide his foundation, as well as support for the idea of ONE EMPEROR, ONE FAITH.
In 380 AD Emperor Theodosius I declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman state
The decay saw a collapse in Roman political control, and a concomitant rise in the power of the Christian Church

In 3 centuries, the persecuted Christian Minority inherited one of the world's greatest empires, transforming it into the Catholic Church, which is still one of the most powerful institutions in the world.....


So, modern Christianity IS an arm of Rome

reply to post by orangetom1999


Brothers was a figure of speech, what if Rome is indeed the Great Architect of the Universe, maybe Rome wanted to be dissociated from Freemasonry to avoid to be link to Masonic Conspiracies. If it is, then the Roman knights of columbus and the Masonic Knights Templars are indeed brothers ! or at least, even if they are not awared of it, both secret Legions of Rome.

This metalic pin of both Emblems interlinked is reveiling and very interesting...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/809646a22525.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by mick1423


Or, The Masons and the Knights Templars went the opposite way as Rome.....


They knew the Roman religion was BS and kept it pure...

My templar ancestors fought behind the TRUTH of the Christian religion and were betrayed for not conforming for profit

reply to post by squirelnutz


When an Entered Apprentice receives his apron for the first time, he is told of the antiquity of the order. As this is published material, allow me to share with you, the first section of the Apron presentation.

"I now present you the lambskin or white leather apron, which is an emblem of innocence, and the badge of a Mason, more ancient than the Golden Fleece or Roman Eagle; more honorable than the Star and Garter, or any order that can be conferred upon you at this time, or any future period, by king, prince, potentate, or any other person, except he be a Mason, and which I hope you will wear with equal pleasure to yourself and honor to the fraternity." - North Carolina Lodge Manual

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM



That's kinda what I'm implying; they didn't become absolved by Rome, they stayed their own independent group..

I don't think the Masons or Templars have anything to do with the NWO or TPTB; but every tree has bad apples, and i am sure some people never would have connected if it werent for the masons but they could have easily bonded playing on the same Softball team or something, so it's got nothing to do with the organization itself

my Grandfather and my Father were actual Brick Masons and part of their local Masons.. They did charity work every other weekend but that was about as far as it went.. and my surname Lacy comes from the DeLacy clan who were high members of the Templar Order and even fought in some wars for the Templars, so my opinion may be a little biased but trust me when i say, I have done my homework on the subjects....


How old are the Masons, btw?

Originally posted by squirelnutz
A rise in the Christian religion during the years of Rome's collapse was related to the church's explanation for the chaos- the world was being punished for the worship of false gods

In about 313 A.D. the church was a highly structed and disciplined organization, well able to exploit Constantine's desire for stability and unity in an empire that had grown increasingly divided.
Constantine needed a unifying state religion, and in Christianity he saw structures in place that would provide his foundation, as well as support for the idea of ONE EMPEROR, ONE FAITH.
In 380 AD Emperor Theodosius I declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman state
The decay saw a collapse in Roman political control, and a concomitant rise in the power of the Christian Church

In 3 centuries, the persecuted Christian Minority inherited one of the world's greatest empires, transforming it into the Catholic Church, which is still one of the most powerful institutions in the world.....

So, modern Christianity IS an arm of Rome

GOOD, now you're getting the picture !

we just need to find the ones who escalated the whole thing AND WHY?

could it have been MONEY, WEALTH, and POWER ?

Originally posted by squirelnutz
How old are the Masons, btw?

This my friend, is not even agreed upon by Freemasons.

It is such a can of worms, I'd suggest starting your own thread.

The history of the craft is quite complex, and far more fascinating by far then its present condition.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Most of them seem to be in the background Masonic in origin. Or at least of the religion promoted by Masonry.

Greetings my friend,

You have struck my curiosity with this line. First, what makes these "lodges" seem to be "Masonic" in origin? In other words, on what grounds do you base this hypothesis? Secondly, what religion is promoted by Masonry?

I'd propose that, originally, the religion promoted by Freemasonry was a more heterodox form of Christianity, usually those not wishing to conform to the "Universal" Church's edicts were various sorts of the hermetically and mystically inclined, who gathered under the Protestant banner. It seemed to be more forgiving in this respect than Catholicism. This was especially so in the British Isles, and the battle between nascent Freemasonry and the Catholic Church was very much of a purely religious nature.
Freethinkers vs. rigid dogmatism, to make too broad a generalisation for the sake of this conversation.
While the modern institution may only stipulate belief in a generic "supreme being" it was at one time very much a Christian orientated order, if at times the Christians therein possessed unorthodox beliefs, such as deism.

Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by mick1423

 

Or, The Masons and the Knights Templars went the opposite way as Rome.....


They knew the Roman religion was BS and kept it pure...

My templar ancestors fought behind the TRUTH of the Christian religion and were betrayed for not conforming for profit

They were brought down for their very pursuit of profit, being the first international banking institution as we know it. They became so enormously powerful that it took a monarch and a pope to bring them down, all to steal their wealth and property, of course.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by squirelnutz
How old are the Masons, btw?

This my friend, is not even agreed upon by Freemasons.

It is such a can of worms, I'd suggest starting your own thread.

The history of the craft is quite complex, and far more fascinating by far then its present condition.

With Love,

Your Brother

The distinction perhaps needs to be made between the operative and speculative crafts, before such a question can be posed, for those who are unaware of the difference. Not sure if we should enter into that topic in the middle of this thread right now, maybe a new thread as you suggest.

But...if we are talking speculative then it can't be any older than the late 1600's, surely?

reply to post by Extant Taxon


They were brought down because they refused to fund a war King Philip IV of France wanted because he was already in debt to them


The Banking the Templars had wasn't for profit, it was to provide safe travel for civilians, and to provide charity work for the poor.. All knights had to take an Oath of Poverty upon entering the Brotherhood

reply to post by Extant Taxon

Freemasonry is a fraternal organisation that arose from obscure origins in the late 16th to early 17th century.

en.wikipedia.org...

I thought it would be much older than that

Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

They were brought down because they refused to fund a war King Philip IV of France wanted because he was already in debt to them

And to take their wealth and lands at a very opportune time, as a direct result of what you say. Power and wealth grab, where Philip le Bel coerced the then Pope (can't recall his name right now) to use the weight of the Church against them too.

Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

The Banking the Templars had wasn't for profit, it was to provide safe travel for civilians, and to provide charity work for the poor.. All knights had to take an Oath of Poverty upon entering the Brotherhood

Their individual vows had nothing to do with the immense wealth and land they generated as a massively powerful multinational corporation. They were richer than kings. Which is why the previously mentioned power grab occurred.

Originally posted by squirelnutz
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

Freemasonry is a fraternal organisation that arose from obscure origins in the late 16th to early 17th century.

en.wikipedia.org...

I thought it would be much older than that

This is why it's a good idea to distinguish between operative masonry and speculative Freemasonry.

How operative masonry changed to speculative masonry: the period of transition

The two are connected, to some degree, but for the sake of historical accuracy it's important to know that both are disctinct historical entities. By the way, I haven't read the specific article above, but I read a lot from that site and their information is usually top-notch.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


I think it's deeper than just for money..

Had the Knights been a "Normal" christian group, Pope Clemens would have just extended his hand and helped them, but the church was just as anxious to get rid of them as well.. Why? Because, they knew it was a sham..