Can Africans Govern Themselves In The Modern World?

reply to post by Tiger5


Perhaps the problem is not Black leaders, but people that come from cultures which are corrupted by the vestiges of colonialism and slavery.

Most would agree that there are vestiges of colonialism and slavery that exist is many cultures that were subjected to colonialism and slavery in the 1800's. People that were subjected to colonialism and slavery have different attitudes and mindsets than people that were not. These mindsets and attitudes may still live on to this day in at least some people that come from these cultures.

For example, a slave had no reason to invest in himself or his future. It made little sense for a slave to engage in any long term planning. A slave had no property rights, so he had no money or property to save or invest. He had little or no control over his own destiny because his master could kill him or send him off somewhere at any time. It was best for him to live in the moment.

If we fast forward a few generations, if the slave's descendants still have the slave's attitudes and outlook on life, the slave's descendants' culture will produce poor leaders. The slave's descendants will choose leaders who promise immediate gratification rather than long term planning. The slave's descendants will shun leaders who advocate any sort of investment.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by hotpinkurinalmint]

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


Now that is a fair point.

But are you saying they should just continue to be slaves then? Or do you give them time and help them out grow that mentality. I ask that, because at one point or another, we all were slaves to another nation's empire.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
Sure your theory would work but it seems that whites were also enslaved at one time also most all races were enslaved at one time or another.

1). The first people that the English tried to enslave and place on plantations were the Irish with whom they had had hostile relations since the 13th century.


2) Some Englishmen had proposed laws enslaving the poor in England and in the colonies to force them to work indefinitely.


3) Most of the slaves on English plantations in Barbados and Jamaica were Irish and Indians.

www.pbs.org...

They have nobody to trade with, same with Russian Federation and former soviet republics is as they try to get in EU trade organizations such as WTO where if you are in you get ridiculous trade benefits, where russian republics can trade between eachother and asia, african nations have nobody to trade with besides themselves which is pretty retarded, considering they have same resources.

Economic Reforms in Japan After World War II

After World War II, large zaibatsu included Mitsubishi and Sumitomo were broken up into hundreds of smaller companies and some of their heads were dismissed. Efforts to break up the zaibatsu—the the large industrial conglomerates that provided the hardware for Japan's military expansion—after World War II were resisted not only by the zaibatsuthemselves by conservative elements in the MacArthur headquarters.

Other economic reforms included the passage of Deconcentration Law and the establishment of the Fair Trade Commission. But in the end a desire by the United States to keep Japan as a good friend an unwillingness to rock the boat too much kept the “cordial oligarchy” between the government and the zaibatsu in place.

The economy was based more on a government-supported and corporation-patronized “social market” than a “free-market” like that of the United States. Government policies shifted vast amounts of wealth to the middle class. Labor was absorbed into corporate governance with an emphasis on employment security.

Originally posted by joey_hv
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

tamotoes/tomatos

bottom line is, blacks took over, Haiti went from jewel to hell hole.

From your perspective it went from jewel to hell-hole.

I wonder how the native Haitians felt? For them it went from hell-hole to home again.

My god, I can't even fathom the line of thinking that favors a de-facto slave state over a free land with free people. Regardless of their economic troubles, at least they are no longer sub-human.

Are you saying it would be better to trade freedom for economic and social security? Or are you saying that we just shouldn't let black people rule their own lands? I apologize but I don't really understand the point you are trying to make here.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


With time, the vestiges of slavery and colonialism would fade away and these people would get rulers. It is not that these people are not fit to lead, it is that they do not pick good leaders. A leader that has a platform of long term planning, investment, and such will not be popular amongst these people. A leader that promises immediate gratification will be popular.

reply to post by drwizardphd

no, you're missing the point.
not slaves,
and not leaders.
let another race govern.
thats all.

reply to post by joey_hv


True, all populations were enslaved at one time or another, but not in the very recent past. Black people in the new World were slaves in the 1800's. There are people alive today in America who knew relatives that were born into slavery. There are many Black people alive who remember quite well the poignant after effects of slavery like segregation and institutionalized racism.

Many Europeans are also descended from slaves, but their slavery occurred well over a thousand years ago. There are few, if any, vestiges of this slavery left.

reply to post by joey_hv


It is not who governs, but who picks those who governs. Even in non-democratic countries popular sentiment has some bearing on who governs. A person cannot govern without the support of a large block of people.

There may be some Black people in Haiti,Africa, or New Orleans that would make outstanding US Congresspeople or Senators. The problem is, these people could not get elected by Black constituencies. The Black constituencies may be selecting inept leaders.

Originally posted by joey_hv
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

no, you're missing the point.
not slaves,
and not leaders.
let another race govern.
thats all.

Ok, so you are basically saying black people should not allowed to govern their own lands. (Which is exactly what I asked you if you were trying to say in my previous post.)

So you honestly believe that race plays a role in a person's character and ability to govern fairly.

Wow.


I would at least give you credit for being an honest racist (most people try to veil it these days), but you opened your first post by claiming you are not racist. So I guess I'll just sit here in disbelief.

reply to post by joey_hv

Stop picking on Haiti as if it was all their fault. Your ignorance of history is laying blame at the wrong feet. France , england and spain are where the buck stops. After winning the wars against both the British and the Spanish fighting in the name of the french and for the hope of freedom , just as the Buffalo Soldiers did in the American civil war , France under Napoleon , reneged on their promise to free the slaves and invaded to retake the island from the slaves , who fought their enemies and kept Saint Domingue , the then French name for Haiti in French hands , utter betrayal.

In this war to retake Saint Domingue , France , under the command of the mighty Napoleon of all people , was defeated by a succession of black men of african ancestry , from Toussaint Louverture to Jean Jacques Dessalines. It was only by deception that Napoleonic France Lulled Toussaint into treaty under the agreement that France would not reinstate slavery. But the french again betrayed the blacks and not long after seized Toussaint and his family and shipped them back to france as prisoners of war. Here toussaint died of pneumonia at Fort-de-Joux 7th April 1803. Toussaint's death and the reinstatement of slavery rallied the black slaves to renew their vigor against oppression.

Led by Jean-Jacques Dessalines and François Capois attacked the strong French-held fort of Vertières, near Cap Français in the north of Haiti (now known as Cap-Haïtien). Dessalines' forces won a decisive victory over the French colonial army under the Viscount of Rochambeau and forced him to capitulate the same night.

The Battle of Vertières marked the first time in the history of mankind that a slave army led a successful revolution for their freedom.

Something not even Spartacus achieved against Rome. A rallying cry for those of us on ATS in our struggle against our modern tyrants , who keep us in debt slavery.

It has been argued that had Toussaint not been imprisoned and left to die of neglect but had gone one to lead the now Haitians of former Saint Domingue he would have provided the leadership for that proud nation in it's fledgeling years , his demands were only to be governor-general for life and that the blacks were freed , but alas the french had to have their slaves and sugar. Ironically had Napoleon not lost Saint Domingue and it's large sugar plantations it may not have motivated him to back the industrial use of the sugar beet , delaying it's arrival on the world market.

reply to post by joey_hv

Further this newborn nation was quickly given a millstone around it's neck , a payment of 150 million francs , reduced to 90 million in 1838 (in excess of $22 Billion today) to be paid to France , for reparations for profits lost from the abominable slave trade. That sum was only finally paid off in 1947.

At many times Haiti's sovereignty was abused , if outright ignored.On more than one occasion, French, US, German and British forces allegedly claimed large sums of money from the vaults of the National Bank of Haiti.In 1892, the German government supported suppression of the reform movement of Anténor Firmin. Anténor wrote a book , De l'Égalité des Races Humaines ( On the Equality of Human Races. It was a rebuttal to the racist French writer Count Arthur de Gobineau's work Essai sur l'inegalite des Races Humaines (Essay on the Inequality of Human Races).He was marginalized at the time for his beliefs that all human races were equal.

The United states occupied the country in 1915 and reinstated slavery on the island , even though slavery was abolished and outlawed. This slave labor was used to build the "modern" infrastructure of that era.The U.S established a border between Haiti and Santo Domingo by taking disputed land from the spanish side.

The U.S fomented after their departure in 1934 by this act , the Parsley Massacre ; when Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo ordered his army to kill Haitians living on the Dominican side of the border. In a "3-day genocidal spree", he murdered between 10,000 and 20,000 Haitians. He then developed a uniquely Dominican policy of racial discrimination targeting the mostly black inhabitants of his neighboring country. Is this the "white leadership" you exalt? Google the name , he's whiter than me.

185 years of external meddling , an unfair debt , invasion , genocide and racism set that country on a path of no return. I suppose you're proud of what "white leadership" did to that country and what it has planned for the world in the NEW WORLD ORDER. If that's the type of leadership you like count me out. I'm not saying all black leaders are good , just as all races leaders have their good and their bad. What I'm saying is that the black african was the bastard of humanity up until around about 50 years ago with Martin Luther King Jr and the Civil Rights Bill. Even then that was just in America which still has negligible racism but still there. Imagine how long It took the rest of the world to stop looking down on blacks , if they even did.

If it's not Radical Islam wanting a soft target to enslave or convert , or the Globalists wanting to steal their resources and installing puppet governments , its the lions and hyenas.

I mean just last year I was caught by surprise to hear that an afro-asian girl named Lou Jing , (mother chinese , father afro-american) was treated like a freak in China just for her dark bi-racial skin. She was born in china , speaks chinese , but those numbnuts discriminated her and slandered her just on the color of her skin. Yet when they go to Sudan to support the muslim Janjiweed carrying out genocide against the southern christians and animists , so they can get Africa's resources , their suddenly the black man's friend.

Again not excusing black leaders that are bad , especially not Barrack Hussain Obama , the guys a lier and a swindler in my book , but so was bush and clinton and bush 1 and hitler and........... , you get my drift.


[edit on 18-4-2010 by De La Valletta]

[edit on 18-4-2010 by De La Valletta]

Originally posted by drwizardphd
So you honestly believe that race plays a role in a person's character and ability to govern fairly.

Well i would say that it certainly can play a role, just like religion can play a role and a lot of other things can. I doesn't have to and some people prove it but it can.
Wouldn't Kwame Kilpatrick be the perfect example for this? I mean, he behaved more like a rapper. He was interested in luxury cars and "bling bling" and just like rapper he had a #load of scandals, sex and murder and drugs, abuse of power and was in jail. He wasn't called "the hip hop mayor" for no reasons and resembled 50 Cent more than a real politician

[edit on 18-4-2010 by ShadowAngel85]

reply to post by joey_hv

Neither I nor anyone in my immediate family is racist. I am half Mexican half Caucasian and have many black friends and date blacks without any problems.

'I'm not racist...some of my best friends are black!' This is a BS line and contradicted in every post you've made in this thread...the existence of the thread contradicts it. You're coming across like a far-right racist bigot without the courage to stand up. These are weasel words you use.

Me, you and everyone else on this planet originated in Africa. Agriculture began there. The first time we used a tool was in Africa. Somalia, Egypt, Sudan, Carthage, Nubia were powerful nations up to 5000 years ago. You're thinking...'So what!? It's history. Who cares?!' Well, it illustrates that Africans can govern themselves like anyone else. It takes away any genetic reason. It takes away your ideas of a colour coded 'superiority' chart. It shows that other causes than colour are at work. European exploration and trade marked a tipping point for Africa...

You're imagining differences that aren't really there. You're suggesting that Africans can't govern themselves which obviously implies you think someone else should. Let me guess? Non-Africans right?! How about whites? You might as well just say it...it's an opinion and you're entitled to it. Admit that all this a strawman BS argument against Barrack Obama that reflects your racial and political bias.

Say it once and say it loud..."I hate Obama, blacks and Dems!...and I'm proud!" Woot woot!

An honest racist is better than a guy throwing **** at folks and hoping some of it sticks.

Show me a country run by a black leader and I will show you a disaster.

I have a friend who is from Ivory Coast in West Africa. He is the blackest of the black, he is also a very intelligent financial management consultant with family working in government.

His words: "Africa will never change, anyone who gets in power will take every penny they can get and hide it in some foreign bank. They do not care about anyone but themselves but only to get what they can get while they can get it."

reply to post by expat2368

Show me a country run by a black leader and I will show you a disaster.

Who's running South American countries? Eastern Europe? North Korea? Greece? Qatar? Afghanistan? Chechnya? What colour or nationality were the leaders that started two World Wars and pulled their nations through recessions, fuel shortages, nuclear brinksmanship and a Cold War?

What's happening is folk are seeing a Third World African country and drawing conclusions on the character of the population. The OP has taken the opposite path...started on disliking Obama and gotten carried away into generalising 5000 years of history and several billion people over the years! That's pretty cool thinking.

Why are there so many racists on ATS lately? I don't understand where they're all coming from. Is Stormfront hosting an "ATS invasion" or something?

Can anyone name a black governed nation that has successfully developed their country? Liberia? No. Africa? No. Haiti? No.

I would like to know of any that have developed themselves..so that my facts are straight.

I can't think of any, but there may be some. But if there are some successful ones, it would appear to be the exception and not the rule.

If we can list successful models, we can then see why the others remain unsuccessful.

Blaming in the "the man" is not a good or real excuse. It's a convenience.

Just my opinion...

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

but until THEY are given the chance like WE were, to build and grow without an outside influence messing with them, in my opinion they cannot be judged in this manner.

Who "gave" us a chance?? Nobody gave the white man a chance. He took it. He took it by brute force, by cunning, by killing and by demanding what he got. No-one gave it to him.

The whites of today are descended from Barbarians. That's what they still are today; albeit more cunning and sophisticated -- at least in making the impression of being "cool" whilst still being barbaric in every way possible behind the scenes.

Yes, there are some generalizable differences between people of different races and cultures -- undeniably; not to the extent that there aren't greater differences within those distinctions, but the fact remains there are some differences.

If you look at Detroit, it is an African city, complete with rampant corruption and violence. Why? They didn't just inherit the problems, they contributed to and multiplied them all on their own.

Look at Indonesia and South-East Asia. They were colonies once too, but today they are thriving. Why?

There are differences between peoples that manifests in the society they live in. This has nothing to do with the concept of intelligence as some would imply. That simply is an erroneous concept. The notion of intelligence is an artificial construct and has little to do with the multiplicity of skills and abilities it takes to get on in the world.

In the end there is no one culture, lifestyle or economy that is the correct one for the entire globe. The only ones who survive into the future might well be the isolated tribes deep in the Amazon or heart of Africa.

We should not be so smug, us technologically advanced barbarians.

[edit on 4/18/2010 by wayno]

edit to answer the original question: Maybe not; at least not in this "modern world". Left to their own they would probably come up with something suitable to them, but the outside world of banksters, corrupt multi nationals and assorted modern barbarians will not leave them alone any time soon.

[edit on 4/18/2010 by wayno]