Can Africans Govern Themselves In The Modern World?

reply to post by joey_hv


Agreed. With the exception of certain imports and exports, ALL countries in the world should leave everyone else alone.



Peace

reply to post by joey_hv


Sometimes it is in our country's best interests to help foreign countries in crisis, whether their leaders are Black, Brown, or Green. Let us take Haiti for example.

If the US and other wealthy countries did nothing in Haiti, Haiti would descend into abject chaos. Anarchy and disease would spread throughout the country and eventually make its way onto our shores. It makes sense for the US to donate some aid so Haiti does not go into a death spiral and take out its neighbors with it.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
ah, ok I see they inherited all their problems, I see, it is the "lets blame Bush" technique.
Ok well how about we take an insiders point of view like lets say the gentleman that wrote the article in the OP?

I am glad you at least looked into the Haiti Dominican Republic comparison. Let us keep in mind that when the blacks took over Haiti it was a paradise.

In the 1700’s what is now Haiti was called the “Jewel of the Caribbean,” and supplied about 40% of the world’s sugar. In 1791 the government of France passed legislation to phase out slavery in its Caribbean colonies and grant the former Negro slaves citizenship. Rather than becoming citizens, Haiti’s Negro population mass murdered all whites and Mulattoes who could not flee the Island in time.

In 1804 only full blooded Negros remained and Haiti became the first Negro ruled nation. www.floort.com...

[edit on 17-4-2010 by joey_hv]

reply to post by joey_hv


Haiti was a paradise to who? During the slave days I bet Haiti was a paradise to the 1% who lived a very comfortable life off the backs of slave labor. I don't think the slaves would have called Haiti a "paradise." The same can be said of South Africa during apartheid. It was a great place to be if you were White. It sucked if you were Black. Now South Africa sucks for everybody because Whites get less special privileges.

I do not wish to make excuses for Black leaders by using a "blame Bush" technique. I would state, rather, that much of the world looks down on Black people. Most people in the west would not let a Black guy run something unless it were already broken. You got a chicken and egg argument going. Is New Orleans messed up because it is run by Black people? Or is New Orleans run by Black people because it is messed up?

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


I really don't see Haiti going into any more of a death spiral then what they were already in. We'd just have to get our bananas and nuts elsewhere. You want to give them aid? Give them an education. That way they can understand how the worlds banks keep screwing them and keeping them in abject poverty. They can learn how to fend for themselves and not have to rely so heavily on outside influences who don't give a rats a** about them, only themselves so they can puff out their chests and say " we helped save the world, what did you do today?"

Don't give them a fish, teach them how to fish.

Don't give them water, teach them how to draw it out of a well.



Peace

A whole continent is difficult to `sum up`. Each country with its unique culture history and heritage .
One cannot ignore the indigenous population experiences with former colonial overlords . If ever a continent needed therapy Africa is it.
Some of the atrocities are mind boggling in scale frequency and duration . All of this just can`t be sweep aside .

The colonial masters may no longer reside in Africa .... but there is still a potent influence .

The International Monetary Fund ,World Bank and various international aid agencies assert influence over nations policies in return for financial Aid.
A government (whatever the colour of their skin) can have all the lofty idealist notions of nation building they like - but when the international money men insist on privatising state owned asset's ,devaluing your currency , reducing state interventions and subsidies . Your projects die .......and you become another disillusioned leader who has fallen into line .

The cookie cutter democracy model , will not work . Each nation will have to to be free to find what suits their culture best , taking a greater role - leading. Their is no denying a tribal structure underpins many of Africa's nations .... can this be reconciled within a nation state ?..... i don`t honestly know.

As somebody already stated :: Education would also be my starting point ...... one cannot expect a relatively uneducated population (no matter how bright and enthusiastic) to run complex institutions . Of course all of this requires political stability over time and serious funding .

===============================================
As the custodians of the cradle of civilisation i wish them well .
An African continent at peace ..... is a step closer to a more enlightened age of humanity .
===============================================

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


Your theory goes a long way in explaining why Obama is president

I'll give you that



Peace

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
A whole continent is difficult to `sum up`. Each country with its unique culture history and heritage .
One cannot ignore the indigenous population experiences with former colonial overlords . If ever a continent needed therapy Africa is it.
Some of the atrocities are mind boggling in scale frequency and duration . All of this just can`t be sweep aside .

The colonial masters may no longer reside in Africa .... but there is still a potent influence .
========================

Very true.

Well actually Africa is now emerging from the neocolonial stage. If anyone believes that the colonials just up and left WITHOUT any system of maintaining the pipeline of influence (theirs) and resources (African) then please U2U me as I have three Brooklyn bridges and Georgia to sell them!

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
New Orleans is messed up because it has been under Democrat rule for the last 75 years.

So what you and others are implying is that if a situation is bad it is only gonna get worse? So black rulers don't have a chance to make things better because they start out with a bad situation?

In response to that theory I give the example of America after Jimmy Carter. Reagan took lemons and made America great again.

Look what Obama is doing to America he took the lemons that GB2 left him and he is now proceeding to toss them into the garbage disposal.

why????? could it be because his black side is making him do it?

reply to post by joey_hv


1. Even though New Orleans has been under Democratic rule for 75 years, it does not mean that it was always ruled by one ideology. 50 years ago, southern Democrats were more or less ideologically identical to today's Republicans. You cannot compare a contemporary democrat to an old-time southern Democrat. In fact, the old time Southern Democrats were not Black, but were closely aligned with the KKK!

2. Reagan was not as great a president as everyone paints him out to be. He spend money like a drunken sailor and ran up the deficit more than any fiscal liberal did. The only fiscal liberal that outdid Reagan was George W. Bush.

Yeah, that's right. I called Reagan and George W. Bush fiscal liberals. Both spent too much money!

3. I don't think the lemons into lemonade analogy holds. It is not as if the world says, "let's give the Black guy lemons and let us see if he can make lemonade." Lemons may not be lemonade, but they have potential. I think the world says, "I don't want anything to do with festering hill of dog crap. Let's dump it off on some Black guy." You are not criticizing Black leaders for failing to make lemonade out of lemons, you are criticizing them for not making lemonade out of dog crap.

Originally posted by joey_hv


why????? could it be because his black side is making him do it?

For a " half Mexican" you sure like to throw skin tone around a bit .

How did that statement make YOU feel.

Was it your `dark brown side, which made you do it` ?

Please inform me as to which half i.e " Mexican" or " Caucasian" is responding to me so i may judge you appropriately !.

Originally posted by joey_hv

Look what Obama is doing to America he took the lemons that GB2 left him and he is now proceeding to toss them into the garbage disposal.

why????? could it be because his black side is making him do it?

Sorry, but you lost control of the thread when you shifted focus from "Africans" to black people in general. You are aware that there is a difference, right?

There are black people all over the world. There are Africans who are not black. Yes, native Africans.

I am beginning to think (flame shield: go!) that the entire purpose of this thread was to devolve into the argument that Obama is not fit to lead because he is "black".


BTW: Simply disclaiming that you are 'half Mexican' (there are white people in Mexico, too), have black friends and 'date blacks without any problems' does not make your comments any less racially divisive. In fact, the whole 'dating blacks' thing was a very odd choice of words. Frankly, it seems a little tacked-on, if you understand my meaning.


EDIT to add: I agree that the leadership in Africa is in dire straits, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the skin-color of the leaders. Africa is an economic nightmare after several hundred years of colonial exploitation. Add to that the almost complete absence of infrastructure across 90% of the content, and the constant civil wars/genocide/coups, and you have one major recipe for disaster.

However, that has nothing to do with skin color. If white people inhabited Africa natively, and black people had colonized, pillaged and exploited them, it would be the exact opposite today. There might be a black fellow on the internet raising the question of whites' ability to lead.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by drwizardphd]

WSe should also remember that the West is had some very public issues of corruption and the American system is inherently corrupt according to the ATS boards.

There is a lot of snouts in the trough in the West in general. TPTB look after their own of can cover their misdeameanours in a way that Africa cannot. Africa just lacks the resources to run the interference to prevent the facts from surfacing.

I am also beginning to wonder about the OP's real purpose.

reply to post by drwizardphd
Wrong, this thread is not only about African blacks but all blacks. you should read the article provided in the OP so that you may be better informed before posting.

Originally posted by joey_hv

I am glad you at least looked into the Haiti Dominican Republic comparison. Let us keep in mind that when the blacks took over Haiti it was a paradise.

In the 1700’s what is now Haiti was called the “Jewel of the Caribbean,” and supplied about 40% of the world’s sugar. In 1791 the government of France passed legislation to phase out slavery in its Caribbean colonies and grant the former Negro slaves citizenship. Rather than becoming citizens, Haiti’s Negro population mass murdered all whites and Mulattoes who could not flee the Island in time.

In 1804 only full blooded Negros remained and Haiti became the first Negro ruled nation. www.floort.com...

This is a really interesting example of revisionist history. Obviously the entire purpose of the 'article' (I hesitate calling it that), is to paint an even dirtier picture of the Haitian revolution and make it seem as if black people on the island went insane.

France basically enacted abolition of slavery in its Caribbean Colonies just so it could gain the support of the populace in emerging conflicts with the British and the Spanish. After Toussaint l'Ouverture, a former slave, defeated the British and the Spanish forces on the island, France decided to change its mind about abolition, and Napoleon sent a force of 20,000 men to oust l'Ouverture and retake the island.

It was only after the French attempted to reinstate slavery within the country that the final push towards independence was made.

I'm not going to sit here and say that it was a noble cause for the slaves; the fighting was brutal and thousands died on both sides. However, painting the Colonial French as benevolent overseers and the native Hatians as murdering nutjobs is rather.. misguided.

I think this is a good post and a very difficult question. Someone mentioned that maybe our way of life is not for them, that is a good point. The OP responded, should we let them live in mudhut's and sleep on dirt?, lol. Are you saying our western style of civilization is better then, say, tribes in South America who have lived a completely self sustaining life in the jungle generation after generation, and left almost zero footprint on earth?

Obviously, when having the opportunity to govern themselves, things have become very corrupt and violent. However it should also be noted, that this is the natural evolution of creating power structure's such as Government. And to understand this has nothing to do with locality or race, all you have to do is study the history of Europe, Asia, America... as we all have gone through this process, though it may have happened for us, long ago.

So in my opinion, to ask if WE should let THEM govern THEMSELVES, is a very arrogant question. It should also be said, that THEY have always, since Ancient Egypt at least, had an outside influence set on keeping THEM destabilized and powerless so THEY cannot utilize their resource rich terrain.

Of course they have also contributed to their own destabilization throughout history, but until THEY are given the chance like WE were, to build and grow without an outside influence messing with them, in my opinion they cannot be judged in this manner. The same goes for the Middle East in my opinion.

But again, this is a great topic to be discussed and a very difficult one to properly address. At some point it has to come down to, do we trust them like we trust ourselves, and if not, do we do to them what we fear they will do to us? And will that create a better world? I think history can answer this.

reply to post by drwizardphd
tamotoes/tomatos

bottom line is, blacks took over, Haiti went from jewel to hell hole.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

so given the chance without outside influence...you mean like in Haiti after the French were slaughtered?
what did the black Haitians do with their new found freedom and self governance?
the answer is obvious.

I agree, it is a difficult thing to face but, there is some races that cannot govern themselves. Blacks and Middle Easterners are two.

reply to post by joey_hv


Well i no longer think this was a good topic, as i did not know it was racially motivated. You originally stated it wasn't but now it is obvious it is.

So then do you think that all Blacks should be enslaved? If they are not equal in the ability to be able to take care of themselves as we are, does that make them non-human?

Sounds like maybe you time traveled into the future from the early 1800's, would you like to go back now? Thanks Masta!

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
I figured someone would pull the race card eventually. sure bash the messenger not the premise.