Is motherhood a form of oppression?

reply to post by Muckster


I honesty dont know how you could say that I am waging a hate campaign against mothers. You have to ignore all the instances in which I said that done well, it is a job worthy of the highest respect.

You yourself qualify parenting by saying "good mothers and good fathers," so how you think we disagree on that topic is beyond me. Is it because I break the social convention of pretending ALL mothers are good mothers? I say it directly, you dont. Clearly if you think there are good mothers there must also in your mind exist bad ones.

What we do disagree on, apparently, is whether or not that book is harmful.

If you think there are bad parents, why wouldnt you want people to get a real feel for the enormous amount of sacrifice and work parenting entailed before the became parents? It could dissuade those not up to the task from going down that road.

If someone is already a parent, and reads that book, I am not sure how you feel it is going to change anything for the worse. What damage do you think the book is going to do? If they are already mothers, they know how much work it is. If they arent, then why shouldnt they hear that up front before getting into something they cant opt out of later? Its not like any other career choice, you cant just quit when you want and try something else, at least not without harming your children.

reply to post by freetree64

Motherhood, is the most sacred gift a woman will ever know, and the most blessed thing God has ever given to women,"Oppressive" dear lord, give me a break, and delete this ridiculous thread.... Please

Er... why delete the thread??? I really don’t understand why you would say that... unless you have simply read the title of the thread and not bothered to read my OP!!

Saying "delete this thread" is simply playing into the hands of those i have been arguing with... you are proving their point with a kneejerk reaction to a thread you appear to have not thoroughly read!


Please read the entire OP before coming out with such comments!!!

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Well to be fair to you... i was talking more about Dock than yourself... however, defending Docks first post does imply that you agree with Docks sentiments...

And why pick on me for who i repond to? Do you reply to EVERY poster on threads you have started?

Motherhood ...

allows women to work their own hours -- to slack off, to choose what to do with their time, to do a good job or make a hash of it

no boss, no supervsors -- they're answerable to no-one

as a 'mother', she is 'always right'

Seriously, can you not see how this sounds a bit... er... bitter?

Sure... it can be argued that some of these points are true... but they are stated in a way that makes the points sound venomous and spiteful.... talking about motherhood with an eliment of disdain...

That is what made me come to the conclussion that maybe Dock has had a bad experiance regarding this topic!


Regarding the book... I come from, what some would call, a rough neighbourhood... I know plenty of mothers who, for various reasons, do an ok'ish job simply because it is seen as socially unacceptable to be poor mother... They have no real love for their Children and struggle to show empathy and understanding.... The only reason they do not completely neglect their Child is because of some twisted sense of public shame from their communities!

My fear is that when mothers (who are on the borderline of being socially feral) hear about this book, from friends or in magazines, it will be the finale tipping point in their shifting from being an ok'ish/poor parent to that of a completely inept mother who neglects even the most basic duties!

This will then harm children who are already in not the greatest of family’s!!!

I am not saying ban the book (would never suggest that) but i feel that opposing thoughts on her book should be encouraged to ensure good motherhood for those that are on the edge!

But... what do i know... just my opinions!




[edit on 22-3-2010 by Muckster]

Originally posted by Muckster

Seriously, can you not see how this sounds a bit... er... bitter?

Sure... it can be argued that some of these points are true... but they are stated in a way that makes the points sound venomous and spiteful.... talking about motherhood with an eliment of disdain...

Perhaps I just see it a bit differently. I like kids in theory, even though I dont want to have any of my own. I think they all deserve to grow up wanted, and cared for, and to feel that they are loved.

There are a lot of really bad parents out there. And there are a lot of children suffering because of it, and it is bad for our society overall when these children who were raised poorly go out unsupervised as teens and young adults and take their anger out on society at large. I think parenting should be taken seriously.

Dock brings up some really good points. One of those is that there are women who take advantage of the high esteem in which we hold good mothers, and they use their physical ability to bear children as a screen to hide all their bad behaviors behind. You cant criticize them, they are mothers and mother hood is sacred. You cant suggest they have no more children because they arent good at parenting, because mother hood is sacred and children are a blessing. I see Docks point. I have lived in enough places that I see bad parents all over the place. It isnt one or two, its a pretty fair percentage, and it isnt just the poor.

Originally posted by Muckster
My fear is that when mothers (who are on the borderline of being socially feral) hear about this book, from friends or in magazines, it will be the finale tipping point in their decent into shifting from being an ok'ish/poor parent to that of a completely inept mother who neglect even the most basic duties!

This will then harm children who are already in not the greatest of family’s!!!

I hear that. I can see where you are coming from. I am just looking at it from the preventative point of view. These women should probably not have become mothers. (And the fathers obviously arent all that stellar themselves or they would take custody) I would hate to see children in an already bad situation have it worse myself. But those poor children have the lives they have, I would like to see women realize up front what they are getting into.

Some women decide to be mothers because society has created a myth that motherhood is joyful and fulfilling and that women who dont do it are missing the joy of a lifetime. It IS joyful and fulfilling for a percentage of women. Especially those women who have chosen the fathers of their children wisely. But it isnt for everyone. I would have to say that for MOST women, it is a really difficult and lonely task, with moments of joy.

I think about all the women on the fence, (which indicates to me they really dont want to do it) who feel they will be missing something really important if they dont, and then they do it and they arent happy with it as a career and they arent good at it either.

Originally posted by Muckster
But... what do i know... just my opinions!

Well, I can certainly respect your motives. They are the same as mine. Both of us want children to have better mothers. We just differ on what impact that book could have on reaching that goal.

I personally would love to see more people forgo childbearing. I think many of them are not suited for it, and dont take it seriously. People have children they cant afford, and those children grow up and become for the most part problems for society in general because they havent been reared properly and were unloved.

Rather than being selfish, I think giving up motherhood if you dont think it is something you want to devote yourself to with your whole heart is selfless. You spare the children grief, you spare society the product of your lousy work, and hopefully you find other ways to contribute to making the world a better place for the children whose parents wanted and loved them and were willing to devote the effort it takes to raise children who will become good adults, and hopefully good parents themselves someday.

without going through the whole thread i have to say: WOW.
as a mother of two under 5, i have to say there are times i have literally *said* that motherhood is oppression/torture/you name it. i am a breastfeeding, no-vax, maybe homeschooling mother and i do think its harder for moms like me.

but it seems this book (or way of thinking) has been literally downloaded into the minds of almost every other mother i come across these days. i feel guilty for *hating* the responsibilities of motherhood sometimes (i think thats a bit normal--right?!) but many mothers do just as this book says.

does motherhood take away "life" from women? i guess so, but if you have the idea that life will continue as normal for you after children then you should definitely not have children (and if you do i feel horrible for your kids!)
motherhood *is* about sacrifice and finding a balance in that sacrifice...

i think that the sad state of affairs our society is in these days is because of mothers and parenting advice like this, advocating pushing off the responsibility of parenting...then what was the point of having a kid to begin with?!

Well, personally with the way the cost of living is now, I think (and I know this will probably be taken offensively), but both parents must work nowadays to provide just the basic necessities, and I think that if the mother's job is more demanding of her than the father's job, that he should take up the slack. Now don't go flaming me, because I certainly don't get this kind of regard in my life, but I chose a loser, I am forced to stay at home because I can't afford to pay the price of childcare, but I do think where the situation presents itself that fathers should be every bit as nurturing of their spouse and children as we are expected to be. In the fact that they aren't expected to do for their children to the same extent women are, that is oppressive.

Also for those that don't want to Mother, and find themselves in the wrong place, well there are many loving people who would love to adopt them. In fact this book may encourage just that.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by ldyserenity]

reply to post by ldyserenity


Fatherhood is the other sacred cow we dont want to touch. Men often feel fatherhood and being a husband is oppressive. And it is something we laugh about when they do it. (Al Bundy anyone?) But apparently its not ok to feel that way about motherhood.

But I would say that motherhood would be a much more attractive option if the burden of childcare were borne more evenly by both parents, especially when they both work. And even, as you point out, if the father contributes to the nurturing and well being of the children when he is home if he is the only breadwinner.

I sometimes suspect that the reason men defend motherhood as being so special sometimes (when it suits them, other times housewives are lazy lounge abouts) is the same reason I burned everything I cooked for a while as a teenager. If you convince the other person they are MUCH better at it than you, and you clearly appear to suck when you try, you wont be ask to do it.

I know I would much rather have the bread winning end of the deal and pawn the child caring side off on the father. Hence my kinda joking earlier comment.

I bet she is one of those "feminists" who think abortion is okay.

You only get out of it what you put into it.

Motherhood can be hell, but most of us mums just soldier on,doing the best we can for our children. And many of us, despite going through hellish times, end up with a brood of wonderful adult offspring who make it all worth while. Some mums might find it all a positive experience, lucky them. For many of us it's new territory to be explored under very difficult conditions.

However, having been one who had to give up a heap and go for years without any time off, I understand that mums need a break, they need to sometimes be able to forget about the kids and have fun. And a mother needs her own achievements to base her identity on. Otherwise when your youngest leaves home you find yourself bereft and your life meaningless.

It's also good for the children to see their mother creating, writing, working, studying. It helps them see that time can be used constructively, and encourages them to make good use of their own lives.


I wonder if the people shocked by a mother needing to just dump her baby with a sitter and get away sometimes realise just how much motherhood can get to be like jail-time. How many fathers could just give up everything and stay at home with young children all the time?

I was a "good" mother because my children were too handicapped to leave with a sitter and I couldn't afford one anyway. I could never take time off for years, and had no money for basics like new underwear. And guess what? I went a little crazy. I developed agoraphobia, and became terrified of walking outside. I lost the ability to converse, and would pee my pants if someone came to the door. It became so hard to keep treating the children rationally then. And yes, I did love them, very much.

Kids are far better off with a mother who can stay sane and rational because she also has time to pursue her own interests and have some fun.

Is motherhood a form of oppression? Oh come on I am a Mr mom and I am not oppressed! I would say our government is way more oppressive than motherhood!

Originally posted by ldyserenity
It just would have been great if I could have walked into my OBGYN and Said "tie my tubes doctor, I don't want to have children" however that's not an option to young girls at eighteen, and those of you that site protection are missing the point that NO contraceptive is 100 percent infallible, and yet there's women everyday taking the fallacy of contraceptives, getting knocked up and raising their children for the next umpteen years, doing it to the very best of their ability. Sometimes after the "Donor" has ditched... the pharm companies know that these contraceptives are fallable and don't care...why? Because they also sell children's medicines too. Don't kid yourself it is oppressive, if it wasn't; at eighteen I could've had my tubes cut and burned and not have to depend on their junk A$$ fallible crap contraceptives!!!!!!

I learned the hard way the contraceptives don't work.

Then at 28 I had about a dozen doctors refuse a tubal ligation because I was too young and my husband, who hated children but was afraid I'd play around behind his back, wouldn't sign the papers.

I did finally find one who agreed, but only by pushing through stupid, self-righteous protesters determined to prevent me getting in to a family planning clinic.

That doctor, accustomed to performing abortions, was delighted I wanted to prevent pregnancy instead.


I think most of the western world is suffering from low fertility these days, and these barely fertile women come on all judgemental about the rest of us whose bodies make babies easily.

Wow, just another way for unresponsable mothers to feel validated by a book. I often run into many women who are so angry(examples of what they say; I'm stuck with __insert name__ because he pays my kid's bills, I can't party anymore, I'm so fat now, having kids took soooo many years off of my life) and blame the world because they had children really young(their excuse usually is that they were a very mature 16 yr old who wants a baby so it's alright) or didn't take responsability in their relations. They treat it as if it's somehow the world's fault and not theirs( or possibly their parents too becaue of allowing it). Not to mention partying while leaving their kids with strangers or having their 'responsible' siblings take care of them. Take responsability, take care of your kids...the reflects a prime example of what is wrong with today's parenting.
Hannah Monata(and the Britney Spears litening mothers who buy the clothes) skimpy clothes sold at WalMart to 5 year olds is another story...

[edit on 23-3-2010 by dreamingawake]

You have to admit this is an original take on things. Might as well say the oppressor is mother nature.

Anyone who has studied anthropology knows this developed, like most of our customs, through necessity.

Beginning during the "hunter-gatherer" period, males would sometimes be gone for a week out searching and hunting for animals and food.

There was no way of course, women could leave the cave, or homesite, because she had to stay with the babies to nurse them -(not exactly like the male could do it ) So she began to contribute to the food supply by going out for brief periods during the day, taking the baby with her, to gather nearby fruits and berries.

Things remained this way for a long period, until they figured out they could bring the food and animals to the homesite, by planting gardens, and keeping animals near them.

It still seems like the best plan. No offense to men, but MOST children at a young age still want "mama" when they are sick, or have other issues requiring adult care. Most women consider motherhood a blessing, and being a great one is a goal for them.

But I'm sure there are times when it can feel oppressive. Mother's miss meetings because a child gets sick at school, and such. Historically as the primary breadwinner, the father was not bothered to leave his job, as it was more important. Still true much of the time.

A better word might have been used to describe the circumstances.
"Oppressive" somehow pushes emotional buttons.

reply to post by ldyserenity

Originally posted by Merigold

It saves them from having to go out to work or achieve at anything specific



This kind of attitude is the biggest threat to motherhood, the nuclear family, and society at a whole.



How????

By reinforcing the idea that achievements and success is all about wealth. There is little recognition for a woman who successfully raises a child into productive adulthood.

Success for me is not bound to wealth. Society would probaly consider me a "loser". I work for a living, I refuse to live for work. I could care less about promotions or moving ahead. I come to my work place so I can pay my bills. That's it. I get no satisfaction out of what I do. I do get satisfaction out of my hobbies, time spent with my family ( and I have much more time then most people I know because I give as little time as possible to my "career"), travelling ect; I consider my life to be a success because I have the most valuable resouce of all, TIME.

I'm not rich by any means. Should I get pregnant it will be hard. No more weekend getaways, no more impulse gadget purchases. Not because of the added expense of a baby, but because I won't be working anymore.

Motherhood an oppression? No. The real oppressor is our sad reliance on wealth as an indicator of success and facilitator of happiness.

I agree with her. babies are parasites. they totally take over the lives of the parents. no wonder some women get post natal depression. maybe its just me? I dont like babies. but if it is a kitten or a puppy. they take me over and I have to give them all my love! it must be a instinctual thing. the cuckoo knows what is best! hehe.

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