Proof David Icke is a fraud

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
The thing that get me is that if it's not true, the Queen can stop it anytime she wishes.

She could probably sue him for defamation of character of have him up on criminal charges of slander.

Two points:

1) If you actually read his theories you will observe that he 'interviews' others who claim to have seen the Queen doing the actions alleged. He does not outright make the statement himself and only alludes to this theory.

2) Slander and Libel laws are a bit more lenient when it comes to public figures.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Schrödinger
I beg to differ sir.

It is two opinions, both equally rightful to be represented.

If you say so, I just do not see the corollary between improving one's self and helping others with that of believing in reptile aliens from outer space who want to molest children and drink their blood.

Depends on the eye of the beholder. I am sure both camps (Masons / Ickes) will say some bad things about each other.
But if you would be so kind, as to take a step back and try to be a little more objective, I know you can, and I respect you for that.

1: You both sell some thought of information (masons being spiritualistic, gnostic and ethic in context; where as davids is more in the enlightening sheeps business.) However both of you sell information and community sense.

2: You both have expenses in these areas, that you need to cover, therefore you charge for your literature.

I have actually heard Icke say this in an interview. He is ok with people pirating his stuff, IF they cannot afford to pay for it, and if they aren't making money selling his stuff.

Now as an endnote; I am not taking sides, I am not saying masons or icke is right. I am only pointing to the similarity in structure and service.
Therefore what I saw was a clear double standard from a fellow brother, and I wanted to address that.

reply to post by Schrödinger


You do not need to become a Mason to practice and espouse the ideals that we were founded upon. They are free for all mankind.

Icke does not advocate a way of conducting ones self in the community and in ones personal life. He is a for-profit author who promotes his own view point on reality.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Schrödinger

 

You do not need to become a Mason to practice and espouse the ideals that we were founded upon. They are free for all mankind.

Icke does not advocate a way of conducting ones self in the community and in ones personal life. He is a for-profit author who promotes his own view point on reality.

Mate... You are talking context, I am not. You both have information, you charge for the information you have. period.

Icke seeks to free mankind of the shackles of some elite.
You seek to free mankind of his own shackles.

Potato, potata?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You do not need to become a Mason to practice and espouse the ideals that we were founded upon. They are free for all mankind.

But likewise, you do not need to buy David Icke's books to believe that an iguana sits on the throne of England and from there, rules the Vatican and all mankind. Any nutter can believe that all on his own, and there have been village idiots as long as there have been villages...

Originally posted by Schrödinger
You both have information, you charge for the information you have. period.

If you asked me I would tell you what the lessons were. Free. Gratis. No charge.

Icke seeks to free mankind of the shackles of some elite.
You seek to free mankind of his own shackles.

Masonry does not seek to free anyone from anything. The individual person has to accomplish his own self-betterment.

Incidentally, how can David Icke free anyone from anything that he can not substantiate?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Schrödinger
You both have information, you charge for the information you have. period.

If you asked me I would tell you what the lessons were. Free. Gratis. No charge.

Icke seeks to free mankind of the shackles of some elite.
You seek to free mankind of his own shackles.

Masonry does not seek to free anyone from anything. The individual person has to accomplish his own self-betterment.

Incidentally, how can David Icke free anyone from anything that he can not substantiate?

Alright I will play with you for the sake of the debate.
Would you also provide me with the literature you can get from the lodge, free of charge?
If I had 100 friends who also wanted to hear this from you, would it still be free?

In regards to the shackles you know I was using an allegory or metaphor if you like that word better.
Of course it could be said that masonry tries to free man of his own shackles.
It is a perfectly valid allegory, that my mason friends from Denmark agree with me on.
If these shackles are defined as; despair, hopelessness, immorality, unethical actions!
To me freemasonry, is a compass and ruler I can use in a modern life, where morals and ethics are hard to come by, and if your aren't religious like me that is the only place I can find that.
The brotherhood is more of a bonus!
A person has to have the will, and take the initiative to apply, after that you are SURELY helping your fellow brother enlightening and bettering himself, are you not?

I do not understand your question about Icke?
He is obviously trying to save us from the Illuminati, that much I did get from his videos.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Alright I will play with you for the sake of the debate.
Would you also provide me with the literature you can get from the lodge, free of charge?

My jurisdiction does not hand out literature. I could however go over what lessons are.

If I had 100 friends who also wanted to hear this from you, would it still be free?

If I had the free time and they had the free time I would go over it with them as well.

In regards to the shackles you know I was using an allegory or metaphor if you like that word better.
Of course it could be said that masonry tries to free man of his own shackles.
It is a perfectly valid allegory, that my mason friends from Denmark agree with me on.
If these shackles are defined as; despair, hopelessness, immorality, unethical actions!

In my personal opinion if anyone comes to Masonry looking to resolve the issues you listed above then they may be looking in the wrong place. Masonry's motto is 'making good men better', if the man in question is already 'immoral' and 'unethical' then I do not think he should be joining the Fraternity.

To me freemasonry, is a compass and ruler I can use in a modern life,

I agree/

...where morals and ethics are hard to come by,...

I disagree. Morals are easy to come by, the effecting of them may not always be so easy.

...and if your aren't religious like me that is the only place I can find that.
The brotherhood is more of a bonus!

I am also not religious (however I am spiritual) and I also enjoy the brotherhood.

A person has to have the will, and take the initiative to apply, after that you are SURELY helping your fellow brother enlightening and bettering himself, are you not?

A person has to have the will to make himself better, Masonry is only a tool for this aim. If a friend came to me on the path of self improvement and either could not or would not join Masonry and wanted to know its moral and spiritual lessons, I would help him (or her).

I do not understand your question about Icke?
He is obviously trying to save us from the Illuminati, that much I did get from his videos.

My statement was that he has zero proof for any of his theories, it is all conjecture and spceious speculation.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Okay, I will use the language card here! It looks to me like you are misunderstanding some of my points. I am sure it is unintentional. I will try to rephrase the parts I feel you misunderstood. English is not my native tongue, which should be obvious.

I can not talk for your jurisdiction, but over here, there are allot of none-mandatory free-masonic literature. None of it is compulsory to becoming a mason however, but it is there, and it is for "sale"
The same with the degrees, you pay a fee, every time you rise in degrees. The same with the annual/quarterly fee associated with your membership in your current lodge/s. Then of course there are donations.

My 100 friends question was of course hypothetical. My point however was not; if you had to communicate to a large amount of people all the time, you simply would not have the time, unless you charged for your time.
(This is my postulation)

You are right in saying that if a person already was immoral and unethical, it would be to late for him! And freemasonry would not be for him. However that was not what I meant. In a world filled with despair, hopelessness, materialism and egocentrism. etc. These are shackles holding humanity down, and to free us (our fellow brothers = mankind) from this, freemasonry can help. (It is not the only thing that can help, but it is one of them)

When I say morals and ethics are hard to come by, I mean that it is hard to find it outside on the streets. I can just give you a recent scenario, and this isn't even one of the worst ones.
Last Saturday, thats 5 days ago now, our youngest sons baby carriage (worth around 1500-2000 USD) was stolen by some drunk hoodlums right out of our private stair case, and moved 100 yards down the road, where it was trashed and smashed and then thrown into a bush. I see people abusing and beating each other on a weekly basis. I experience first hand, episodes where I when I act against evil, is frowned upon, and lectured by other people! Because the norm has become; to turn away, not see, not react.

Morals and ethics are 2 pillars that are easy to come by, and most of the time easy to live by. But when I say it is hard to come by, I am talking about the subjective experience I have, when I try to find it in the world I am living in. When I try to project my own ethics and morals on the world I live, I get no reflection.

Much can be said about David, but some of his theories are taking a basis in facts, its all the other crap he tells that got him into this pain!

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Okay, I will use the language card here! It looks to me like you are misunderstanding some of my points. I am sure it is unintentional. I will try to rephrase the parts I feel you misunderstood. English is not my native tongue, which should be obvious.

I did not know. Your command of the English language is exceptional, you have a very good proficiency with grammar and syntax.

I can not talk for your jurisdiction, but over here, there are allot of none-mandatory free-masonic literature. None of it is compulsory to becoming a mason however, but it is there, and it is for "sale"
The same with the degrees, you pay a fee, every time you rise in degrees. The same with the annual/quarterly fee associated with your membership in your current lodge/s. Then of course there are donations.

This is where things differ radically. I took you for someone who resided in the United States and wrongly assumed you were refering to 'American' Masonry. There are no fees everytime you advance, there is only an intiation fee and a small yearly dues charge which is used for the maintainence of the lodge building itself. Donations by their very nature are voluntary and I do not factor them in to the equation.

My 100 friends question was of course hypothetical. My point however was not; if you had to communicate to a large amount of people all the time, you simply would not have the time, unless you charged for your time.
(This is my postulation)

Of course, but then I would happily refer them ton a friend (or friends) whom would also gladly help. Obviously I would be happy if many more men joined the Fraternity but as Masons we are charged to help all mankind and I would include the lessons taught therin as part of this charge.

You are right in saying that if a person already was immoral and unethical, it would be to late for him! And freemasonry would not be for him. However that was not what I meant. In a world filled with despair, hopelessness, materialism and egocentrism. etc. These are shackles holding humanity down, and to free us (our fellow brothers = mankind) from this, freemasonry can help. (It is not the only thing that can help, but it is one of them)

I understand your point but I do not think that Masons should try to admonish anyone (execpt fellow Masons, as this is part of our oath) from behaving in this fashion. We should however extend our help to those who wish to change of their own volition.

When I say morals and ethics are hard to come by, I mean that it is hard to find it outside on the streets. I can just give you a recent scenario, and this isn't even one of the worst ones.
Last Saturday, thats 5 days ago now, our youngest sons baby carriage (worth around 1500-2000 USD) was stolen by some drunk hoodlums right out of our private stair case, and moved 100 yards down the road, where it was trashed and smashed and then thrown into a bush. I see people abusing and beating each other on a weekly basis. I experience first hand, episodes where I when I act against evil, is frowned upon, and lectured by other people! Because the norm has become; to turn away, not see, not react.

If I witnessed this myself i would have most likely intervened. Not as a Mason, but as a human being who does not tolorate such behavior in my neighborhood. I am sorry that this unfortunate incident happened to you and your family.

Morals and ethics are 2 pillars that are easy to come by, and most of the time easy to live by. But when I say it is hard to come by, I am talking about the subjective experience I have, when I try to find it in the world I am living in. When I try to project my own ethics and morals on the world I live, I get no reflection.

This is a rather profound and introspective perspective. I can only say that my own approach is to be as moral as possible and hope that my actions lead others to the same path.

Much can be said about David, but some of his theories are taking a basis in facts, its all the other crap he tells that got him into this pain!

Agreed.

Feel free to message me if you have any questions regarding Masonry's lessons. I would prefer not to derail the thread by discussing them here.

Fair points We have an accord.

I agree, that we are derailing this thread more than necessary Will take it out of this thread for now.

reply to post by JonDeath


....................doubt it




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While I agree completely that Icke is totally, 100% full of B.S., I'm not sure I would call him a fraud because I think he truly believes what he is preaching.

I don't think he is certifiable, but I think the concussions he suffered have had a deleterious effect on his cognitive abilities. He is seeing patterns that aren't there, connections that don't exist and he has the world view of a footballer with a smack on the head.

The end result is the same. His spiel is baloney. But I think he genuinely believes it.

You know she talks about Jonbenet Ramsey during the interview with David Icke. I don't know if she is who you say she is but it's interesting you mention this and I remembered this interview where she speaks about Patsy Ramsey's daughter Jonbenet.

Just visit David Icke's website and see how few people visit or post in it yet he can pull 10s of thousands to his shows , i have read a few of his book's over the year's but they bore me big time he constantly repeat's the same point book after book and pushes his children on his website big time .

Big fail with me i am afraid

In reply to the original poster ... The woman in the Icke interview video was Arizona Wilder aka Jennifer Greene and not Patsey Ramsey ... I don't understand how some people say they are the same person ... Well they are NOT !!

The aged Arizona Wilder (one in the Icke interview) looks totally different than the aged Patsey Ramsey.
Check both woman in youtube . There's huge difference in their facial features .

Patsy's aged face has a close resemblance to pictures of her youth.
Square/Round shaped Jaw . The fold like lines above her lips & around her mouth, especially when she smiles.

Whereas , Arizona got a long face , with very large eyes . Arizona's face in the Icke interview not at all resembles Patsy's youth pictures.
Therefore , i totally disagree with you .

I'm no David Icke fan . Nor i'm trying to defend him . I try to keep an open mind to all informations .
Maybe Icke is a con. But one thing's for sure ... it was not Patsy in his interview.
And he definately didn't make Patsy strip-off from her excess weight, so he could use Patsy as Arizona as you claimed lol .

At least everybody is welcome to join David ickes club. the same is not true of masons.

originally posted by: andy1033
I think christianity has helped mankind so much.

That one line negates anything else you have to say. Everything out of your mouth after that doesn't matter. For someone to hold this belief in light of what we NOW know about religion is just plain naive.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
At least everybody is welcome to join David ickes club. the same is not true of masons.

That is correct. To join our FRATERNITY you must be male, and not a criminal. Other than that, all you have to do is ask.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


Except that once your graduate you can actually get a job with what you learn at a university. Try appyling with what Mr. Icke 'teaches'.

Yeah, people forget that icke has a secret
money tree in his garden, so does not need to
make some sort of living from his books,
talks etc

This argument is so week, because anyone
dedicating all there time to this, would do it
for money too, if you say you would not, then
you are lying.

As for the OP
They do look alike, but I can tell its not the
Same perso