Remember Easter 1916?

First time on this board. I need to rant about blatant, cynical deflection by the Irish Government and the Media.

Ireland is, so we’re told, in serious financial trouble because of the “recession”. The present incumbents (not for long come the next general election) have, in my opinion, systematically made pariahs of the public sector workers and are in the throws of docking their wages yet again (second time this year).

First pay cut was a “pension levy”; this time, after relatively short Union negotiations and the threat of another one day stoppage, we have been told there will be no “pay cut”. What there will be is ten days per year unpaid leave inflicted virtually across the board.

Erm, isn’t that a pay cut but dressed up differently?

And besides that, this new fine – and that’s basically what it is being presented as – will not only lessen wages, it’ll also take workers out of services that are already stretched and performing at the ends of their tethers. Brilliant idea, Brian Cowen, just brilliant. I hope your 5 million euro pension is snug and safe.

And the absolute doozy of the latest low blow in trying to apportion blame? It has been leaked that the public sector will be hit for a third time in this year’s Budget; another 5% pared from wages.

Can you now see why I’ve put this thread on the Disinfo and Deflection board?

The fact is that the Irish Government, when times were lucrative and easy, spent and spent and spent while all the time neglecting to save a damn cent for any possible hard times ahead. We’re now borrowing up to 500 million euro a week to bolster the economy. When times were good, the public sector was authorized (there was never a mention of pay cuts then) to carry on as it had always done; running the country.

Yet, now the crap’s hit the fan it was apparently not the fault of the bureaucrats and financiers and bankers and builders and the elected government that the country is in a sorry state. It was the public sector all along.

What complete rubbish.

The media constantly reports the uproar from public sector workers and unions with the use of a single, provocative word; disruption.

When they go on strike, the country is disrupted.

Education is disrupted.

The Health services is disrupted.

The Garda and Fire service are disrupted.

Let’s look at that word; disrupt – upset, disordered, disturbed. What is the point of using that particular word? It suggest to the populace that the public sector is exercising what is at the end of the day its constitutional right to protest almost as a deliberate form of sabotage.

And it’s working.

Day after day we hear about how easy the public sector have it, how safe their jobs are, how well paid they are. Well, the truth is this; these jobs weren’t handed out as favours. The current public sector employees are doing their jobs because they had the commensurate level of skill, education and dedication to public duty to do specific jobs.

And no matter how much it might stick in the craw of those who are falling for this government inspired, media sustained witch hunt, you should be proud of the fact that the average public sector worker continues to educate your children, help the sick and protect the public despite continued cutbacks and poor management.

Now can you see the deflection? The country is being deliberately made to focus and apportion blame anywhere but where it belongs.

The Irish government were perfectly happy to pay the people who do the ground work for their policies when things were good.

No one told those workers that they were actually going to be a “savings fund” for when things were bad.

Remember Easter 1916, Ireland? That was only a few generations ago and is still in living memory.

That spirit of fairness hasn’t gone away, has it?

I’m not advocating rebellion,but it has to be noted that constitutional incompetence can easily be covered up if it is let.

Ok, rant over. And, by the way, from an Englishman.

Deflection being the operative word there,
Typical Bankers and politicians blaming the the little man again,
Well these public service jobs have to have higher wages to survive because of outrages prices "Down south",
Traditionally civil employees stuck these jobs because of better perks and not the monetary gain,
It seems the jobs for life scenario is under threat and "bully boy" management is using this tactic to keep wage negotiations down IMO..
Your right about a possible revolution, I was talking to some Railway workers when i was in Dublin and they were ready for a lynching mob,
they were sick and tired of being bent over.!!
The republic administration has gotten way over its head and is trying to blame the "little man" IMO

reply to post by foxhoundone


Hi foxhoundone, and thanks for the reply.

Yes, perks were, in the past, a selling point for public sector employment, but then again, who wouldn’t want to be employed in a job that had side benefits?

It seems the jobs for life scenario is under threat and "bully boy" management is using this tactic to keep wage negotiations down IMO..

See, this is the misconception about “jobs for life”; they are not only under threat, but they are on the way out.

After four years continued service, civil employees are entitled to a contract and, therefore, protected employment. However, employers often break employee’s service after three years, so no contract can be given. It’s called “churning”. And as to those whose jobs are guaranteed; many pay reduced prsi stamps, therefore if they left public employ are not entitled to the dole or other government benefits including pension and health care.

Your right about a possible revolution…

I really don’t want to discuss that, as it may seem inflammatory and this thread is purely about showing that government will shamelessly use “spin” to deflect blame away from itself.

However, I truly don’t believe the fire of confrontational civic reform has gone from the Irish belly…

Your main problem is your understanding of what we think of as a public sector worker.

If you are at the bottom of the ladder you are not to blame but you do forget that you have it far easier than say a factory worker. When times where good you got a pay rise you had or have an index linked pension.

Factory workes and other minimum wage works never got a pay rise as such just a change in the minimum wage that was in no way linked to inflation like the wage rises the pubic sector got when times where good.

The people near the top of the chain are the ones we are against, in saying that whinging because times are not good won't change it. Did you think that your particular gravy trian would ride forever?

Get over it times are tough and if your not at the top you can bloddy well suffer along with the rest of us or do something to move up the chain like we have to as well.

Lets throw some gas on the fire.


France (and the World) pretty much screwed ya'll out of a TON of money when they cheated at the World Cup position game. That would have been a nice bit of commerce had yall made it further (maybe the top)?

Btw, I'm not an Irish natl. leage fan. German Natl. league. Just hate when things are beyond not fair-bloody crooked.

Oh well. Gotta keep the Irish down somehow.

reply to post by jpmail

Your main problem is your understanding of what we think of as a public sector worker.

I have no problem with understanding what a public sector worker is. I am married to one. It’s your archaic viewpoint that is at fault.

If you are at the bottom of the ladder you are not to blame but you do forget that you have it far easier than say a factory worker. When times where good you got a pay rise you had or have an index linked pension.

Easier than a factory worker churning out goods, doing overtime etc. when the Celtic Tiger was at its height and foreign firms came to Ireland en masse? Maybe you should question governmental policy regarding tax incentives to try and keep those businesses here.

You seem to be of the same mind as the government in that public sector workers are, somehow, special. They’re not.

They applied for their job, the same as you.

They had the correct qualifications, the same as you.

And they go to work doing a job that may well be stressful, hard, done without thanks, or just plain repetitive the same as you.

And excuse me, but their pay wasn’t performance linked, so even when times were good, they didn’t benefit. Where do you get your ideas from? My wife paid her own way through college to get her Honors Degree to better her performance at work. She is more qualified than her boss, yet gets paid far less.

She has such a high ratio of students to staff that even yesterday an foreign (UK) external panel noted to a management board that the ratio was unprecedented, and potentially destabilizing. Will anything come of it? No.

She has no productivity bonuses, nor Christmas bonus. They do now, and always have, paid for their own Christmas party.

Factory workes and other minimum wage works never got a pay rise as such just a change in the minimum wage that was in no way linked to inflation like the wage rises the pubic sector got when times where good.

Are you telling me that not one manual worker got productivity bonuses? Right…

Once again, your prejudices skew your understanding. The Partnership agreements were negotiated openly at a national level between Unions and the Government. Did you see any demonstrations then by the private sector, suggesting that, say, this was unfair? Or was it a simple matter that everyone was doing well and on one was concerned, as there was, apparently, nothing to be concerned about?

Now, the government is holding the public sector to account for earning a fair wage that the government sanctioned. Can anyone say the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing?

The people near the top of the chain are the ones we are against…

Then focus on them and not the ordinary workers who still have to pay mortgages, feed families, pay for crèches, and all on reduced wages, wages that were not high in the first place.

…in saying that whinging because times are not good won't change it. Did you think that your particular gravy trian would ride forever?

Gravy train? What world are you living in? How many nurses do you see travelling to work in luxury cars? Or admin staff jetting off to their villas in the Caribbean? Get a grip. Public sector workers are just that; workers. They’re not privileged.

Get over it times are tough and if your not at the top you can bloddy well suffer along with the rest of us or do something to move up the chain like we have to as well.

You’re not employed by the Oireachtas, are you?

Times are tough for everyone, but it’s not everyone’s fault that the times are tough. And if you’re happy to let one section of the populace take the brunt of mismanagement and professional negligence, then fine.

Shows where your allegiance lies.


[edit on 2-12-2009 by Beamish]

And here we have the template for TPTB to be wary off..
Taken from Fortean times.uk

Interesting article, one minor omission the UWP (Ulster Workers Party) strike in Northern Ireland which paralysed the region. The army/police stood by and let this happen despite the Wilson governments desire to see the strike ended.

Chris Mullan alludes to this in 'A Very British Coup' ....

Sir H Wilson, the then PM for the UK stood down not long after this.
It was the straw that broke the camels back,

Your right Beamish, We still have "a fire in our belly's" ......

Twas down the glen one easter morn
to a city fair rode I
those armour bands of marching men
in squadrons passed me by
no fife did hum nor battle drum
did sound it's dread tatoo
but the angeles bell o'er the life swell
rang out through the foggy dew



and back through the glen I rode again
and my heart with grief was sore
for I parted then with valiant men
whom I never will see no more
but to and fro in my dreams I go
and i kneel and pray for you
for slavery fled o glorious dead
when you fell in the foggy dew


(we should never forget)

reply to post by foxhoundone


Thanks for the reply.

The recent one day stoppage, and the demonstrations through Dublin, I fear will only be the start.

It may, for some, be unpalatable for someone else to complain about the public sector being made the current scapegoat for the present government’s failings, but just wait and see what the rest of the country says when the budget hits in December.

This from Sinn Fein’s website (not something I’d normally quote from…My emphasis added):

For most of 2009 the Government has been attempting to soften up the public for a savage Budget this December. Never has a Budget been more dreaded. The Government has made clear that it will base its Budget on cuts in social welfare payments, cuts in public services and cuts in public sector pay as well as axing health, education and capital building projects.

“Once again the poor, the unemployed, the pensioners, the low paid workers in both private and public sectors and families struggling with massive mortgages will bear the burden.

“With social welfare cuts it seems that the Government is determined to get blood from the stone. But when they are challenged to tax the super-rich we are told there isn’t even a stone!

www.sinnfein.ie...

So, even now, in these last few days before a drastic budget hits, the Government are planning to tax the underprivileged to make up for their own lack of management.

Political rhetoric abounds in days such as these, but the truth is that the mistakes of the fortunate few are about to be paid for – literally and figuratively – by the toil and sweat of the many.

Where’s the accountability for governmental laxity, and what seems to be the willful abandonment of the duty of care and protection of the welfare of the State?

Oh, I forgot. It may be their fault, but you are going to pay.


[edit on 3-12-2009 by Beamish]

reply to post by Beamish

I have always advocated that, When at wage negotiations that all wages be paid in cash like it was years ago..
That would see the bank managers at "the back gate" on there knees begging you to put monies in there banks, Maybe even paying YOU !!
That would be a good start to sorting some this mess out... IMO,

I think it is fair to say .. that when the country is in a bad spot everyone should help out.

If they were being fair .. then they would use a percentage of the salaries as a basis:
... ... ...
"Perhaps prorated at a "very small" amount .. because those used to larger checks do have bigger debt, usually, but not much of a prorate, because the issue is "the problem affects everyone and everyone has to chip in".


Those on tighter budgets are living more hand to mouth .. they have little ability to save, and they put a greater percentage of their money back into the economy! ... These are not the people to cut ... these are the retired, and the disabled, and some others perhaps.

Those with big checks can contribute the most, and they should!!
It is not "me", "mine" .... it is "our country" -- "our survival as a nation, as a people, as a culture".

The first job is to level and clean up the mess (I hope you can, we seem to fail this first step all the time);
the second is to stabilize the base for the future, and
the third is to begin building again.

You truly got a bad go with that banking business ...

Here Bush-inc wanted to privatize Social Security .. make it ride on the Stock Market, and when that was not set to 'rip the carpet from under the baby boomers' (who are a cause of social security angst) ... then we had the bailout mania, and the bank debacle. I suspect it was known for a long time, he just did it at the very end.

The thing they really, really fear is losing the dominance of the Dollar ... and what will happen when the new base currency of the World is the Yen? .... Give you any ideas?

Evict the rich rent strike now, was a great bit of graffiti I used to see on my way to work in the 80's, the bankers made bad bets let them all go bankrupt, we'll make new ones to replace the old, it's all just a scam to give value to "stuff".

edit for debts to bets

reply to post by Serendipity7

I think it is fair to say .. that when the country is in a bad spot everyone should help out.

True, but at what eventual cost? How much damage will this cause in the long run? It’s already been mooted that the Irish will be paying for this colossal debt for several generations.

Where’s the innovative ideas to drag us from this mire?

Where was the balanced leadership when times were good?

All they did was spend. And for spend, read waste.

Not one cent saved for the future.

You truly got a bad go with that banking business ...

And there’s my original point; the whole damn thing was the fault of the present government who happily went hand in hand with the bankers as they lent larger and larger amounts to greedy developers.

We’re still paying (literally) for the incompetence of those few developers – apparently only twenty businesses – that’s ultimately twenty individuals – who caused this collapse.

The practice of lending larger and larger amounts of money to purchase land almost became a game here. At one time, parts of Dublin became the most expensive real estate on the planet.

Ridiculous.

And no one in power thought to step in and stop that lunacy.

And the scary thing is, those incompetents are still in power, and we’re still spiraling.

And we’re still reluctant to stand up and say enough is enough. All that is happening is that the major political parties here see the current crisis as an opportunity to slag each other off, as opposed to pulling together and doing something positive.

I wonder more and more (theoretically) about just how far you have to go before incompetence becomes sabotage…

I wonder if I’m living in a fantasy world where logic prevails and where everyone will muck in and help when danger threatens…

…and what will happen when the new base currency of the World is the Yen? .... Give you any ideas?

Well, China seems to know what it’s doing.

With the help of massive government stimulus action, China is now leading the world economy out of recession, according to a new OECD report.

China can afford the extra spending as its public finances remain strong. Gross government debt amounted to only 21% of GDP in 2008. The stimulus measures, which nevertheless dwarfed those of other countries, are expected to increase this debt ratio by only 3% of GDP in 2010. By contrast, gross public debt in OECD countries is projected to almost reach their total GDP this year and even exceed it in 2011.

www.thegovmonitor.com...