Is music, universal?

reply to post by spellbound


there may be millions of alien races, and they may listen to music, but i was referring to the most frequently reported type, and the consistency of those reports thats all. I did say specifically the grey type of alien in my original post. I think it's highly interesting that these creature have no apparent creative side, again based on reports that can't be verified. this is all speculation, but what isn't when it comes to aliens?

reply to post by liquidsmoke206


I didn't mean any offense.
It was just an odd statement. To first tell someone that doesn't know what a major chord is, that they need to understand a major scale. Most people, who haven't been trained formally, will learn major chords before they understand a lick of musical theory.
So to simplify a chord by refering them to a scale is a little weird, is all. Scale patterns themselves can be daunting to someone learning music.

Eh, like I said, no offense meant.

Anyhow, like I said initially, I believe that music is something that IS ingrained in the very fabric of the universe. Not something that is written into it, per se, but a natural by-product of how sentient beings understand the universe.
Pattern recognition is how we learn.

There is no reason to suspect that any other intelligent life would learn without it.

I would even imagine that races of aliens exist that don't have a sense of hearing, but instead, just a sense of sight.
I would also imagine they have their own sight-based music.


[edit on 30-10-2009 by JayinAR]

reply to post by JayinAR

It was just an odd statement. To first tell someone that doesn't know what a major chord is, that they need to understand a major scale. Most people, who haven't been trained formally, will learn major chords before they understand a lick of musical theory.
So to simplify a chord by refering them to a scale is a little weird, is all. Scale patterns themselves can be daunting to someone learning music.

true, but i figured that even if you've never studied music that you are familiar with the major scale( do re mi...everyones heard it.) and since the post was about frequency and vibration I thought maybe the tones that make up the chord would be of some relevance even to those who are not educated in theory.

Anyhow, like I said initially, I believe that music is something that IS ingrained in the very fabric of the universe. Not something that is written into it, per se, but a natural by-product of how sentient beings understand the universe.
Pattern recognition is how we learn.

this goes back to my thought about music itself not being created but discovered...a song can exist in some abstract form before its ever heard...

There is no reason to suspect that any other intelligent life would learn without it.

which is why greys confuse me...but i dont wanna beat a dead horse...

I would even imagine that races of aliens exist that don't have a sense of hearing, but instead, just a sense of sight.
I would also imagine they have their own sight-based music.

yeah it gets tough, and i don't wanna rack yer tiny little brain again(just kidding) or mine for that matter so if you really wanna discuss what I'm attempting to say it'll have to wait till I'm a little more collected. I saw a movie once about a DJ named frankie wilde who lost his hearing...completely....he ended up putting out some of his best stuff after he was deaf...he did it by feeling the vibrations that his speakers and such made....so yeah music ids definitely not all about sound.

Assuming "aliens" are real, not demons/devils and the creators of some crop circles, I'd say yes. For more insight google "crop circle music"

Try to imeagine how music effects other intelligent species on other planets who have not heard music or our music before.Some may be so amazed they just cannot believe it.Some may get scared and run for cover.Some may show a surprise expression on there faces when they hear a song for example,amazing grace played with the bagpipes.They may seach for answers but cannot find out where the music is coming from.Another species may just love to hear classical music and another may love the sound on metal wind chimes blowing in the wind.Just imagine for a minute how just how much reaction one song spread though out many different intelligence species would bring.You could get trillions of orders for just one cd of music.

Originally posted by spellbound
In the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind music was used to communicate with the space ships.

I always liked that part!! Steve Vai applied that sequence of notes
in a song called "Little Green Men" on his first record. The words
that he added to the notes were, E T I O U...
Just thought it was worth noting. Funny song..

Here are the lyrics:

We know ya came a long way
We hope that your ship is O.K.
We hope you’re gonna stick around
Maybe to save the day

Liw, Liw, Liw, Liw, Liw Liw, Liw

You look - a real keen
Even though you are green
With those big large heads
Something off of the movie screen

Liw, Liw, Liw, Liw, Liw Liw, Liw

Little Green Men, they look so funny
Funny green men
I want one to have and to hold and to
Silly green men
Where do they come from?
Should we run away, should we start to pray
Or is it a movie that they’re filmin’?

Are the people on your planet
Usually in a frantic panic like they are here most of the time?
(Bla... I’m freakin’ out...)
Wait a minute you, is it true
About Einstein’s theory and Darwin’s too?
What about war, the soul, the mind
Love, Death, God, Divine?

Little, little, little, little, little, little, little

Ladies and gentlemen of the world, it is my utmost privilege to announce to you that these Little Green Men actually do exist, for they are part of the eternal past and venture from all regions of our galaxy to find homage in our earth’s center. Governments of the world have been very good at concealing these little visitors and preparing the public with loving movies and pleasant melodies (ya see, like that one -- did ya hear that? -- yes). Controlled media has to cushion the impact of the arrival of our little friends. You see, throughout history many people have claimed to see strange lights in the sky.

(Oh No)

Well, the truth of the matter is that these lights, and beings, will only reveal themselves to those who are pure of heart, for these enlightened aliens leave permanent imprinted information on the psyche of those chosen humans only to be revealed to our deteriorating planet at the point in which our civilization shall enter the new age of Light Without Heat.

Little Green Men about four foot one
Maybe they want to have some fun
Little Green Men about four foot two
Maybe he wants to mate with you
(Ooh, Ah, Eee, Etc...) [Simulated alien sex sequence]
Little Green Men about four foot three
Maybe they want to be set free

We’re hoping that the human race will become part of endless time. We love you all and want you to know that in your heart and in your soul there is power bigger than the world.

Little Green Men about four foot
Maybe they wanna kick some butt
MO FO
UUUU, AAAA, EEEE, GRRR...

(Chorus repeats)

E.T.I.O.U. E.T.I.O.U.

Ba-v-ni-ni na-ni-new
Ba-nu-ni-ni-na-ni-new Bda-da
Ba-nu-ni-ni-na-ni-new, Bra-da-di-dat

Exo-galactic Rap and Country..... this alone would be enough to make me not want any form of life to show up here


On a serious note, I would imagine that any higher form of life would have "music" in some form or another. Albeit, it may not be what we call music, but nonetheless music is sound, sound is waves, waves is math, the one thing everyone has in common.

Just my 2c


( my sound = math analogy is very simplified )

reply to post by Optix


If you watch the full video it states that music is not entirely universal. Also, the participation of the audience is more based on cues that the 'instructor' is giving the audience and not any seemingly inherent thought of oh snap I gotta get in on this sweet jam going on.

Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
another interesting note....

all matter does vibrate and certain frequencies...and I don't know how true this is, but my music instructor actually told us that our solar system vibrates as a major chord. Which universally as far as i know is considered a "sweet" or "happy" chord by all cultures on earth.

and for those who aren't educated in music theory, a major chord is comprised of the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of the major scale played simultaneously.

Sorry to go off topic, but if someone isn't educated in music theory, how do you suppose they're going to know what the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the major scale are?


Anyway... I don't think music is a universal language. i think its an extremely unique way to communicate, between other humans, and other life forms - surely - but not universal.

also... how does our solar system vibrate to a major chord? and which major chord, because c major has a different vibration than c# major etc...

also yes i believe that all matter is just vibrating energy, but has anyone considered alien life forms which don't listen to 'sound waves' as such but instead 'listen' (or perceive...) gravitational waves or something? imagine making music that involved gravitational waves that's like... complete control of reality right there

reply to post by Sacrosanct

Sorry to go off topic, but if someone isn't educated in music theory, how do you suppose they're going to know what the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the major scale are?

someone else had the same complaint....and I addressed and explained why I was attempting to explain a major chord in as simple of terms as possible without leaving out what i thought might be relevant information....so go back and reread the thread if you wanna know why I posted that.

Anyway... I don't think music is a universal language. i think its an extremely unique way to communicate, between other humans, and other life forms - surely - but not universal.

could you clarify? it almost seems as if you're contradicting yourself. if it's a way to communicate between humans and other life forms does that not make it universal?

also... how does our solar system vibrate to a major chord? and which major chord, because c major has a different vibration than c# major etc...

Like I said, this is just something my music prof told us, so I don't know if its true, but she was no dummy. As for which major chord? it doesn't matter. c and c# are different tones, but the chord is still made up of the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of their respective scales. Cmaj= C E G, C#maj= C# E# G# Either way it's gonna be do-mi-sol, played together by changing the root note(c or c# in this case) you're just changing keys, the intervals between the notes is still the same. Is it now becoming a little more obvious why I mentioned the 1st 3rd and 5th notes originally...of course if that was over yer head everything I just typed must sound like chinese...sorry.

You could tell the difference between a c and c# just by listening, but thats a skill called perfect pitch, and you have to be pretty much born with it(can be learned to some degree, but not like being born with it), something only 5% of people can do that.

also yes i believe that all matter is just vibrating energy, but has anyone considered alien life forms which don't listen to 'sound waves' as such but instead 'listen' (or perceive...) gravitational waves or something? imagine making music that involved gravitational waves that's like... complete control of reality right there

very difficult to conceive...is there a way to apply some of the theoretical concepts of music to this idea for clarity? it sounds interesting.

What if music that really is just sound that humans find either, smart, or barbaric patterns of frequency in? Sometimes i think that it is, musicians thrive to hear these patterns and frequencies and thus that is what drives them to want to make music.

Frequent - Frequencies. they are just noises that vibrate really fast in the air that make patterns to our minds.

but then you have to think, we would have to have evolved or been made with these frequencies, so we have would have had to recognize them at some time way back even in cell stage which would make all existence have to hear it too, otherwise, where would it come from?

reply to post by scghst1


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've never studied music....



aaaaaand I'm right...as usual...

come on bro I'm taking this thread very seriously...and i would love to go a few rounds with you just to attract more attention....you dont know what the #%$^*(* yer talking about....

reply to post by liquidsmoke206


I have never studied music? i have been playing guitar for 6 years now, come on man. maybe its just you who cannot understand what i am trying to say.

Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
reply to post by Sacrosanct

 

Sorry to go off topic, but if someone isn't educated in music theory, how do you suppose they're going to know what the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the major scale are?

someone else had the same complaint....and I addressed and explained why I was attempting to explain a major chord in as simple of terms as possible without leaving out what i thought might be relevant information....so go back and reread the thread if you wanna know why I posted that.

Anyway... I don't think music is a universal language. i think its an extremely unique way to communicate, between other humans, and other life forms - surely - but not universal.

could you clarify? it almost seems as if you're contradicting yourself. if it's a way to communicate between humans and other life forms does that not make it universal?

also... how does our solar system vibrate to a major chord? and which major chord, because c major has a different vibration than c# major etc...

Like I said, this is just something my music prof told us, so I don't know if its true, but she was no dummy. As for which major chord? it doesn't matter. c and c# are different tones, but the chord is still made up of the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of their respective scales. Cmaj= C E G, C#maj= C# E# G# Either way it's gonna be do-mi-sol, played together by changing the root note(c or c# in this case) you're just changing keys, the intervals between the notes is still the same. Is it now becoming a little more obvious why I mentioned the 1st 3rd and 5th notes originally...of course if that was over yer head everything I just typed must sound like chinese...sorry.

You could tell the difference between a c and c# just by listening, but thats a skill called perfect pitch, and you have to be pretty much born with it(can be learned to some degree, but not like being born with it), something only 5% of people can do that.

also yes i believe that all matter is just vibrating energy, but has anyone considered alien life forms which don't listen to 'sound waves' as such but instead 'listen' (or perceive...) gravitational waves or something? imagine making music that involved gravitational waves that's like... complete control of reality right there

very difficult to conceive...is there a way to apply some of the theoretical concepts of music to this idea for clarity? it sounds interesting.

I appreciate what you say, however, a c maj and c# maj vibrate at different frequencies that would be like... having a universe that vibrates in ALL major frequencies and somehow i just don't think that's the case.

I am not contradicting myself because it can be used to communicate universally between humans - but you're implying aliens and extra terrestrial life forms... read the book "The World in Six Songs" and "This is your brain on Music" by (i forget the authors name buit this might be it..) Daniel Levitin. These books are about music and its importance to humanity - we have as scghst explained actually evolved to 'listen' to music.

Music ain't nothin' but noise. so in THAT regard yes anything that can perceive sound waves can hear music, but not necessarily LISTEN to it so it's not a universal 'language' anymore than a cats meow is a universal language.

I don't know.
I just sorta' envision music as being one of the building blocks for creative thought in a species' mind.

And I don't think that it would be human-specific at all.

I don't think that humans would be anywhere near where we are today without music.

Music predates nearly everything that we still hold true today. Except for maybe drawing.

I'm sure it can be taken back even much further than playing music for music's sake.
I saw a video not too long about about an orangutan (I think) using a blade of grass as a whistle.
An alert call.

I would imagine that is how it started for humans also.

And probably any other species of higher brain functionality struggling to survive in a world they have not mastered yet.

I think it would be like a prerequisite for higher civilization complexes.

Of course, as a being achieves higher and higher and higher brian functionality, their "music" will become more and more complex and therefore less likely to be understood by a being that isn't as "evolved"...

Play music for a cat. They couldn't care less about your music.
Yet give a simple repetitive tap on a wall with your fingernail and the cat becomes very curious indeed.