Why was it necessary for Adam & Eve to be banished from Paradise?

Ok, this is something I've been trying to explain in words, so hopefully my point will be understood. First let me say, that if you are not capable of objectively viewing the Bible don't bother responding. I have no desire to get into a blind faith argument about this. I would love to hear any rational criticisms of my statements, however.

Upon serious consideration of the Genesis account of the "fall of man", I have come to the conclusion that the true reasons for kicking Adam & Eve out of Paradise are not told.

1. Adam & Eve are created blameless in a perfect place where they have no understanding of evil or deception or of their ability to choose.
2. They have free will because a choice (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) has been placed in their midst, which they have the option of choosing if they want.
3. They have only communicated with 1 supernatural being during their short existence, the LORD God. They know only what he has taught them, and have no reason to doubt his word.
4. The LORD God told them that if they chose against his advice, and took from the "forbidden fruit", that they would die, or be separated from him. He did not explain why, nor did he warn them not to listen to any other advice. He did not count on anyone else communicating with them or filling in the blanks that he had neglected to explain. (The serpent never lied to Adam and Eve, it just told them info the LORD left out.)
5. Since they had only heard the LORD speak to them and were, as yet, unaware of what negative (or positive) consequences were, they had no reason to doubt that the serpent's advice was just as reliable. They were never told that they would be banished from Paradise, and be forced to provide for their own survival. They had no idea what it meant to suffer as a result of making a choice, since they had never made one up to that point.
6. The serpent told them that they would gain the knowledge of and become like the LORD, whom they worshipped and adored. What human doesn't seek to become as much like their idol as possible? The possibility of becoming like the LORD, whom they loved so much, would have seemed like the natural thing to do. It would not have involved pride, since they were incapable of sinning prior to making that choice.
7. The truth of what the serpent had said became apparent when Eve did not die upon taking the "fruit", so Adam would have seen no reason to not do the same. It was only after Adam made the choice to follow suit, that they both realized the existance of their physical bodies. (What would have happened if only Eve had followed the serpent's advice, I wonder?)

At this point Adam and Eve were launched into a state of confusion. They could differentiate between their physical and spiritual existence now and they didn't know why or what to do.

When this happened, the LORD God had a choice to make himself. He could, either, understand that his creations now had the intelligence and ability to learn on a higher level, rather than just following orders, or, he could get mad that they actually believed it might be possible to become as great as the LORD, and punish them to a life of suffering and "trial by fire" to put them in their place.

A truly loving God would have taken pity on their confused state and sought to teach and enlighten them. Instead of doing that, the LORD was insolent and decided to make them suffer as a penance for making the wrong choice. We all know the rest of the story.

Now why would the LORD punish them instead of teaching them how to use and understand the new potential that they had gained?
Would you tell your child it had the option to go out into the world, but could get hurt, then slam the door in their face once they did? No, if you cared about your children, you would keep the door open, because you'd know that they will need guidance and understanding from those more knowledgeable.
The LORD could have shown Adam & Eve what the consequences of their actions would be, and then let them decide what the best decision was. That would have put the blame on Adam & Eve, if they still chose the "wrong" path. As the story is told, however, the fault for man's fall rests on the LORD, for failing to share enough info in order to allow man to make an intelligent decision.

Hopefully, the point I was trying to make got across at least a little bit. While all of this just raises more questions, I have found that by comparing the Sumerian creation story of Enki with the Genesis version, the answers start to appear. The parts that are illogical in Genesis, become a little more rational when considered from the Sumerian perspective, and vice-versa. If you want me to explain that further, let me know.

Well I can't speak for God, so I can't explain exactly why he banished them instead of helping them see. But I can say that he told them what would happen, he warned them against taking from the tree, and they did it anyway. So he punished them. They went against his word.

4. The LORD God told them that if they chose against his advice, and took from the "forbidden fruit", that they would die, or be separated from him. He did not explain why, nor did he warn them not to listen to any other advice.

5. They were never told that they would be banished from Paradise, and be forced to provide for their own survival. They had no idea what it meant to suffer as a result of making a choice, since they had never made one up to that point.

Well you contradicted yourself/answered your own question. You said that God told them they would be separated from him, then claimed they had no idea they would be banished. Well, being banished from paradise is being separated from God, isn't it?

He didn't have to warn them to listen to any other advice, he is God. They should listen to him, he created them, he is their Lord. He is their life, and they disobeyed him. Of course (well in my eyes) he has the right to punish them. He banished them from paradise, but did not leave them. He stayed with them, because if they didn't where would our religion be now? It wouldn't be here, we wouldn't have it. They left him, but God was forever with them (as we can see today, because he is also with us).

Well, I hope I kind of made a point. It's late, and I'm not sure if this is coming out right. But that's my thoughts on this deal.

Originally posted by Faisca
Well I can't speak for God, so I can't explain exactly why he banished them instead of helping them see. But I can say that he told them what would happen, he warned them against taking from the tree, and they did it anyway. So he punished them. They went against his word.

4. The LORD God told them that if they chose against his advice, and took from the "forbidden fruit", that they would die, or be separated from him. He did not explain why, nor did he warn them not to listen to any other advice.

5. They were never told that they would be banished from Paradise, and be forced to provide for their own survival. They had no idea what it meant to suffer as a result of making a choice, since they had never made one up to that point.

Well you contradicted yourself/answered your own question. You said that God told them they would be separated from him, then claimed they had no idea they would be banished. Well, being banished from paradise is being separated from God, isn't it?

They were told they would die if they "ate of the fruit", but how could they possibly comprehend what that meant. Even if the LORD meant they would die a spiritual death, that would have no meaning to a creature who had no experience with death. They would have been unable to comprehend what death, in any form, was. They also wouldn't have had any concept of bad or good, since awarness of contrasts and duality came as a result of their decision and not before it.

He didn't have to warn them to listen to any other advice, he is God. They should listen to him, he created them, he is their Lord. He is their life, and they disobeyed him.

Of course he should have warned them! Why would they suspect the serpent of giving bad advice? They had never encountered anyone of higher intelligence before, besides the LORD, so why would they assume that they shouldn't follow the serpent, just like they did the LORD? Experience or advice is how we learn what to do or what not to do. They had neither, so how could they have known?

Well you were doing OK up until point 4 and 5.

Lets look at the actual verse and see what God said to Adam.

Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

another version...

15 The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. 16 But the Lord God gave him this warning: "You may freely eat any fruit in the garden 17 except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

So:
1 He /they knew that it was wrong to eat the fruit.
2 They knew the consequences - death. How can you say whether or not they had the ability to comprehend death? That is only in the realm of God to know, and surely he would have ensured that they understood the implications of their choice.

If you made a place for people and didn't give them the choice to be in it or not, you have made a cage.

Unless Adam and Eve had the abiilty to make a choice to follow God and obey him, or not to follow God, he would have made little robots without free will, and they would be no more than caged hampsters, no matter how beautiful that cage was.

They knew EXACTLY what the consequences were of their action - death - they made their choice to disobey God, as a result they couldn't stay in the Garden.


[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by Netchicken

Unless Adam and Eve had the abiilty to make a choice to follow God and obey him, or not to follow God, he would have made little robots without free will, and they would be no more than caged hampsters, no matter how beautiful that cage was.

They knew EXACTLY what the consequences were of their action - death - they made their choice to disobey God, as a result they couldn't stay in the Garden.


[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Netchicken]

This is the point I'm trying to make, but I can't get the words right.
If a 2 hamsters are in a cage, and the door to the cage is open, but the hamsters have no reason to believe there is something more outside of the cage, they are still making a choice by not going thru the door. Now if someone could communicate to the hamsters that they could exist beyond their cage, like their caretaker does, the reason to make that different choice increases. If one of the hamsters goes thru the door and nothing happens, why would the other hamster think someithing would happen to it?

Adam and Eve didn't die when they made their choice. In fact, the serpent was the one who spoke the truth in this. Even if it were possible for them to understand what death was, Adam and Eve were misled when they were told they would die as a result of taking the fruit. The serpent simply told them what the LORD did not want them to know. They had no reason to believe that the serpent was acting in opposition to God by telling them what it did, because they had no comprehension of what opposition was. To them, everything would just "be", like the Tao. There would have been no dualities for them. No right and wrong, happy and sad, good and evil. As a matter of fact, Adam and Eve did have the chance to become immortal, but with knowledge of good/evil, like the LORD. All they had to do was take from the tree of Life. The LORD God realized this and banished them so that that could not happen. So who was the REAL deceiver of man here? The one who "took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it" (Gen.2:15) or the one who told the man that he had the potential to be more than a gardener; who, correctly, told him he could be as knowlegable as the "god" who was in power over him?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We were kicked out because the LORD God knew that man now could become like him, if he took from the Tree of Life (which was also in the Garden), and he didn't want that to happen.

But the serpent did lie, he said "you certainly not die but your eyes would be opened." Not a direct quote but you get the drift. The fact that Adam walked with God, got to know him, he shouldn't need any other warning than what God had said.

"The day you eat of it" is not a literal day, same as creating the world in 6 days.

The rest was put best by Netchicken.

Bottom line they ate, they croaked.

Ahhh ... Jezebel I think you are you are missing the point about what life is "now".

This is a life of death, all things decay and die, in the GoE, nothing did, it was an immortal place, based on innocence.

They knew that outside of the GoE was death, and if they went there, via eating the apple, they would die, which infact is the case for them, and for us all.

It wasn't a world of 2 choices, gee do I pick the pink, or the blue, it doesn't really matter. It was a world of one choice, life, or death.

Do this you live, do that you die, the world they were kicked out into was a world of death, and eventually they grew old and died. In the GoE they didn't.

God told the exact truth in his words.

Think of it like this, you have a friend you love who is wondering if he should inject smack.

You say "Do this and you will certianly end up on a slab".

He has a friend who says "Try it man you reach a new reality".

Dummy does, he finds friend is right, he does have amazing highs and enjoyment, but then ultimatly you are right, the friend dies, "every junky's like a setting sun" (5 points to whoever knows this ref).

Same applies with the Devil and God senario, sure the devil may have had an element of truth, but God's truth was greater, and more ultimate.

they broke the rules so they had to pay. simple as that.

Originally posted by Netchicken
This is a life of death, all things decay and die, in the GoE, nothing did, it was an immortal place, based on innocence.

Precisely! Innocence is the freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil. How would they have known what it was to die or suffer or age? How would they have understood anything that was non-existent in their world? If nothing in our reality aged, felt pain or died, what would it mean to us if someone told us "Don't do that or you'll die"?

They knew that outside of the GoE was death, and if they went there, via eating the apple, they would die, which infact is the case for them, and for us all.

How did they know what was outside Paradise? Did I miss the verse that mentions their awareness of an undesireable existence beyond the Garden? I thought God just said they would die, without any further explanation.

It wasn't a world of 2 choices, gee do I pick the pink, or the blue, it doesn't really matter. It was a world of one choice, life, or death.

It was a world of 1 choice, consisting of 2 options...one of which they had no real understanding of, since they had never witnessed or experienced it.

Do this you live, do that you die, the world they were kicked out into was a world of death, and eventually they grew old and died. In the GoE they didn't.

Or they hadn't as of yet. The LORD said they would be immortal if they took from the Tree of Life. This would have made them truly equal to him/them, so the way to the Tree of Life was blocked from the living. It never says that they were immortal before "the fall". That is just an assumption.

God told the exact truth in his words...

Same applies with the Devil and God senario, sure the devil may have had an element of truth, but God's truth was greater, and more ultimate.

Was it now? Let's compare them, shall we...

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
That's the extent of the LORD's input on the matter

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
compare this to the LORD's final word on the subject:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Seems to me like the LORD intentionally left out information, and the serpent was just filling in the blanks.

As I said before, why would they have had reason to think the serpent was acting in opposition to the LORD? And why didn't Eve feel the effects before Adam did, since she took of the "tree" and then sought out Adam? Wouldn't she have felt it immediately, like he did?

You are looking at the bible through the eyes of a lawyer, or legal system. It didn't go, God created man, page 1, God created woman, page2.etc.. God saw that Adam needed someting, woman, that takes time. Therefore they spent TIME together, knew each other. Hell, he made a mate for Adam without need for a woman, haven't been able to do that till now. I think it's safe to say that he knew God, knew what he could do and trusted him.

I'll throw out a "what if" for you. Adam has news from God, a being he knows and trusts, that if he eats whatever he's going to die. Now this is vague to me, I'm not sure the serpent talked to Adam, but through Eve, he hears the opposite. He knows God, it is a conscious decision to go against God. I don't see a problem there. I know what you're saying, he didn't know that it would be like this or that, it doesn't matter, death is pretty concrete, and I think even Adam got the death thing. I think God gave him more than enough incentive to LISTEN.

Oh dear, I can see that we are not going to find a meeting on this.

The primary issue is NOT the A&E bit, its that you ascribe characteristics to God that he doesn't have.

You have painted him as a manipulative liar, who doesn't care for his creations but plays sadistic mind games on them. On the other hand you have protrayed satan as a truth teller, freeing people from their maipulative God.

In such a situation there appears to be no true discussion until the basic attributes of the two entities are established.

BTW the Hebrew for the part about "you will surely die" can also be translated "in death you will die".

A&E not only entered death and decay when they left eden, but they also began to decay, their celluar bodies broke down, they aged and eventually died, the process started the moment they left eden.

Not only that, they endured the worst of all, spiritual death, separation from God, so God's words were fulfilled in a manner that was total and final.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Oh dear, I can see that we are not going to find a meeting on this.

The primary issue is NOT the A&E bit, its that you ascribe characteristics to God that he doesn't have.

You have painted him as a manipulative liar, who doesn't care for his creations but plays sadistic mind games on them. On the other hand you have protrayed satan as a truth teller, freeing people from their maipulative God.

I have not painted God as anything at all. I have, however, pointed out aspects of the LORD God that are commonly ignored. I have not mentioned satan in my posts either, but I dont think anything I have said about the serpent is errant. I have left out the sugary assumptions typically added to the story, hoping it might be seen from a different perspective, but that is all.

In such a situation there appears to be no true discussion until the basic attributes of the two entities are established.

This is what I was hoping someone would notice. Genesis is told from the perspective of the ancient Hebrews. The story of the Annunaki is told from the perspective of the ancient Sumerians. Yet both accounts are remarkabley similar. The biggest difference is the characterization of Enki (symbolized by a serpent) as the benefactor of man instead of the deceiver. Since I can find no reference to the serpent in Paradise being a liar or deceiver, I see no reason to assume that it was. I also can't help but notice that in Genesis 1, God creates the male and female at the same time.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

Then in Genesis 2, the LORD God creates Eden and makes Adam to care for it, but Eve is not made until after everything else. For some unexplained reason, the LORD God isn't sure what kind of mate would be suitable for Adam.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Now the typical Genesis defense of the dual accounts of the creation of man/Adam, is that the first time was a summary and the second time was detailed. I hope to offer an alternative to that assumption. That the LORD God and God are two separate entities, and that the LORD God may not have been as benevolent and loving as he is believed to be. In contrast, maybe the serpent was not the epidomy of evil, as it is portrayed.

If you only read the Bible without taking into account any other related ancient writings, I feel, you are only getting part of the real story. If you consider the Genesis account and Sumerian account together, they compliment and start to clarify each other's inconsistencies.

I challenge those who are truly seeking answers, to read them both, in light of each other. (If you have already set your mind on one specific theory, and reject all other possibilities, then you are not interested in being objective and this is nothing more than a blind faith discussion. )

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
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GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later
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GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

hmmm i do believe there are enough inconsistancies in the Bible that we may never find out.

If God had let them off with it he would then be a liar...He said eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and you die...they did die. They began to die at that moment. They were kicked out of the garden of Eden which means heart of God. Away from the presence of God is death. Before the creation of the world God set down the standard for eternal life...faith in Him and His Word...they didn't do it they believed Satan and the lie...God said you'll die, Satan said no you won't you'll be like Him...and ever since man has been trying through their own efforts to be like God. He gave that standard to Moses on Mt. Sinai, basically saying if you want to be like me then DO IT...these are the terms. Christ had to come to free us from that law because no one could do it...only Christ. You can't say that death didn't occur...every graveyard will prove you wrong.

God walked and talked with them daily they had every opportunity to ask Him anything they wished....so the 'ignorance' plea doesn't wash.

Satan went to the woman because he knew that she would always want more than she had, and she would convince her husband to eat by using her womanly wiles and if that didn't work she would withdraw herself from the man emotionally and physically. And it works...come on girls...we do it all the time. If all else fails we resort to these tactics. Put some flesh and blood on the bible, these people were just like us.

Sapphire,
God Had already created the birds and animals before Adam's creation what you are reading in ch 2 is when He brought them to Adam to be named, naming signifies authority over that which is named. God named Adam, Adam named all living things...but Adam never named Eve until after the fall.
Remember that Moses wrote this book when God revealed to him all the creation including the earth and all in it. Moses is filling in the blanks in ch 2...going into more detail. Adam was created first, then Eve was created out of his rib. God was pleased with His creation as it was created, he became displeased with men because of their wickedness.

I'm sure a 10 year old could read these chapters and understand them...unless they want to be controversial.