Should we have compassion for psychopaths?

I was just getting into this convo?? I swear, I must be a thread killer. I'm getting a complex here!! lol.

reply to post by Demetre


I have a feeling I may have killed the thread before you did... I provided logic and evidence. And they haven't commented back, I think I silenced them. Don't worry I can take the fall for murdering this thread.


EDIT: The main people arguing left when no one supported them and provided more evidence in support of compassion.



[edit on 4-8-2010 by Xiamara]

We have passion about psychopaths, sociopaths and APD's.
Passion is a purely emotional condition.

Com passion moves the arena of passion into action.

There are a category and class of humans that need to be either locked up the rest of their life or executed.

reply to post by slugger9787


Well I have to say that is a VERY old world view on those with mental disabilities... I don't think anyone should be executed unless proven they are a huge threat to society. Murders and rapists should be killed and I think all convicted child killers or molesters should be thrown in jail with a giant sign saying how many children they hurt.. Death is too good for them.

People with mental disabilities should be given the chance to be rehabilitated and I really think the public needs to be properly educated about mental illness. Not all people with a mental illness are dangerous, and should be locked up its not black and white, In a facility or not. People with schizophrenia are a great example. They may have periods of time lucidity and are able to be 100% fully functioning. But other times they go into full blow schizophrenia attacks and can become violent. With medication they are able to be lucid all the time and control their actions. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you need to constantly be locked away from society.

reply to post by Xiamara


Damn you Xiamara!! Damn youuuu! LOL.

reply to post by Demetre



I'm sorry Demetre... It was a murder of passion, some times you can't help but kill a thread.

Originally posted by slugger9787
We have passion about psychopaths, sociopaths and APD's.
Passion is a purely emotional condition.

Com passion moves the arena of passion into action.

There are a category and class of humans that need to be either locked up the rest of their life or executed.

So is humanity to categorize humans with another added category, label them and then execute them?

Who decides?

Medical science? When it still have not even scratch the surface of comprehension how the mind works, with everything still knowledge in progres?

Or the greedy class decides, whom protect and reserves opportunities for themselves and their kind only, throwing a bone now and then to the masses, deny oppotunities for others and enslaving them, causing their bitterness to show up and then react in an angry manner, and with that label them as pyscopaths and execute them?

NO human child is born a pyschopath. Some are just different and in that diversity creates beauty and knowledge, of what is good and bad for rationalizing and progress of societies.

Mental illness can be treated and rehabilitated if given the chance. No human must be left behind if we are to evolve and progress. Without compassion, at least until they had proven themselves guilty, commit acts against humanity, mankind will not last. The last man left alive will eventually die too.

If a person who is simply different, questions the authority on their decisions, and then gets label as pyscopath and marked for execution, then please execute ME first. I am different, for I believe a man still is innocent till proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt, have and show compassion for all, and uphold the sacred Constitution by the noble founding fathers, unlke you.

[edit on 4-8-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

Originally posted by unityemissions
We were talking about psychopaths. I have come to understand psychopaths as being inhumane people. I'm not talking about a secondary psychopath, I'm talking about the real deal.

Here's why I see them like this. To my understanding, a psychopath has the perspective that only they exist! Other people are inanimate objects meant only to pleasure their every desire. Psychopaths only act in a humane way at times, in order to avoid conflict, and getting there way.

yes. the true textbook example of what is known in psychology as "anti-social." they are anti-social not in the way of they don't like to socialize but rather that, in their world and view, there is no "society." there is only them and only they count for anything. it's literally all about them. so they have no regard for others because for some reason, they don't see others as they see themselves.

i've often wondered about such persons - what is it that has made them so different and at odds with their own race of humanity?

They have cold hearted reasoning, void of insight, and empathy. Their emotions are shallow, never truly experiencing fear, or love. From all of this, I gather they have no conscience whatsoever, and are inhumane, period!

like Ted Bundy - i remember when i first read about his whole story, and the lack of remorse he demonstrated, that he obviously had NO conscience, whatsoever!
a lack of remorse is definitely a sign of lack of conscience, in my opinion.

I don't understand why anyone should feel compassion towards someone who doesn't emotionally comprehend the difference between slicing bread, and slicing someones arm.

personally, that is why i would feel compassion for such a person - because what an awful thing that would be! even if you didn't know it, as obviously is the case, or it wouldn't be so, it is still tragic.

for whatever reason or by whatever cause, it is the height of human tragedy. compounded, also, by the hurt and suffering that is often inflicted on those who become victims.

My friend says that we shouldn't judge them for the way they are born. Well, I think otherwise. I think it's a grave mistake to assume all Homo sapiens have a conscience. I think conscience is what makes us act humanely, naturally.

yes, i agree.
and i also don't think everyone has a conscience. or if they do, it is dysfunctional or just plain broken in a small part of the whole population.

What do ATS members think? Should we not judge a psychopath for the way they were born?

well, see, your thread title asks if we should have compassion.
but now you ask should we not judge.

these are two different things, altogether.

judging should not affect compassion.
i do have compassion for such people, like i said above, along with my reasoning.
my honest thought is that we should have compassion for EVERYONE who suffers. period.

judging what someone does can have a few different implications, too. i would not condemn someone for something that happened in their formation before they had any control over it, but that doesn't mean i have to put my safety or peace of mind, or that of my family, within their reach.

i can still have compassion, and refrain from judgment, yet keep my safe distance as much as possible. if i know someone like that, then i will not allow access to the point of harming me or mine.

sometimes we don't know, at first, and access is permitted. but at some point in time, it is going to be obvious, hopefully sooner than later. at that point, you must still put your safety and welfare, and your family, first.

compassion doesn't necessitate a personal relationship or approval, for that matter.

at thefreedictionary.com... compassion is defined as:

Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

we can be aware of the suffering of others and even have the wish that we could somehow relieve that suffering.

in cases such as severe and extreme anti-social psychopathic behavior, there doesn't seem to be anything that we, as regular people, can do about it. whatever the reason and/or mechanism, it is what it is and it so far doesn't seem to be alterable, not in the true sense of the word.

so if we can't relieve it, we can still wish but that's easily done from a safe distance!

reply to post by Xiamara


thanks for the link to the APA site - i followed the link at the bottom and read a very interesting article about how genetics might be involved with APD.

it's been a long time since i learned this stuff, and never used it outside of my college clinicals, and i appreciate the chance to think on certain things, again, only now from a much different personal viewpoint, having 10-15 extra years of life experience under my belt.

so it is possible that anti-social persons might be born that way - that makes sense to me but who knows what else might be found out.

i do know that from my own experience, an anti-social personality wouldn't be drawn to the field of public service, such as politics, even to reach their own ends. mainly because it is too much trouble. they can do far better in their own little world, with the people they already know how to manipulate.

that's just my opinion, though, which is just from personal and professional experience.

"Psychopath" is a rather fuzzy term nowadays. It used to be applied to a certain group of people that were later called sociopaths, because it sounded too much like psychotic. Now, sociopathy is termed antisocial personality disorder. That particular disorder involves not having a conscience, and not feeling most emotions, or at least not the way that a healthy brain does. Some studies say that as many as 1-3% of the population are sociopaths; not all of them are murderers or even that physically violent. They are, however, emotionally and mentally violent. They hurt a lot of people in their lives.

I recently read up on this because I met a person whom I believe to be very much lacking in empathy and other normal human emotions. I don't think he would be, anytime soon at least, a serial killer, and he may never kill anyone, but he is very violent and has little respect for any type of authority or moral values.

So, should we show such people compassion? Yes and no. We should not shower them with kisses and flowers, as that plays into their mental game. They will use and abuse anyone they perceive as a possible target. But, I also feel some moral intuition telling me that they can't be blamed like a normal person either, as they don't have a conscience. They are literally, mentally disabled; they lack abilities that the majority of the populace has.

So, if they perform a criminal, immoral act, they ought to be punished, but not for all the same reasons a normal person is punished. Society needs to protect itself from them, but they will never reform and they will never be sorry.

Originally posted by FrostyPhilosopher
I recently read up on this because I met a person whom I believe to be very much lacking in empathy and other normal human emotions. I don't think he would be, anytime soon at least, a serial killer, and he may never kill anyone, but he is very violent and has little respect for any type of authority or moral values.

and ultimately, i think circumstances dictate, don't you?
it all depends on where life takes him and what happens and any number of other combining factors.
but the thing is, the potential might be there.

So, should we show such people compassion? Yes and no. We should not shower them with kisses and flowers, as that plays into their mental game.

well, like i said, above, compassion doesn't necessarily require any action at all. it often drives one to act but it is more about feeling and wishing rather than actually fixing. if no rational plan can be made to alleviate the suffering of another, especially in the case of anti-social personalities, i would think that NO attention, positive or negative, in response to their manipulations, or attempts thereof, is the best choice, as well as not letting on that there is compassion felt for their situation.

They will use and abuse anyone they perceive as a possible target. But, I also feel some moral intuition telling me that they can't be blamed like a normal person either, as they don't have a conscience. They are literally, mentally disabled; they lack abilities that the majority of the populace has.

true enough, i have to agree. we feel compassion for those individuals who have to go their entire lives interacting with the adult world, looking like an adult, but having only the mental faculties of a 3rd grader.
the situation is different, granted, but you are right to say they are mentally disabled! they don't have the complete repertoire of ability that the average adult human has.

So, if they perform a criminal, immoral act, they ought to be punished, but not for all the same reasons a normal person is punished. Society needs to protect itself from them, but they will never reform and they will never be sorry.

right.
there is no means for preventing any negative activity they might decide to engage in, now or in the future, since mostly our society attempts to maintain order with things such as rehab, prison (questionably not a reforming experience but the principle was there when it came into being), and guilt/shame when faced with one's guilt.

xiamara's link to the clinical criteria for APD links to another article, here. here is a good explanation of what i mean, in this paragraph:

In psychoanalytic terms, he said, this suggests a physiologic marker for the presence or absence of a superego. “If you are anxious about doing something wrong or afraid of hurting someone, getting caught, or being the subject of parental disapproval, you would have a higher autonomic response,” he said. “Somebody who is physiologically different probably does not have that kind of anxiety in response to doing something criminal.”

this doesn't work for those truly afflicted with anti-social personality disorder.

what recourse is there, then?
perhaps a transition from uselessly trying to stop drug use by locking up everyone who breaks drug laws, and in the process incarcerating a bigger percentage of adults in the US than in any other country...
and using some of the funds regained for creating institutions that are more like protective habitats for those who cannot function in society, rather than prisons...

a prison environment wouldn't help control their behavior or make their lives the best that is possible, but maybe something more humane that allowed interaction with each other but not society, would be beneficial for all.

what would it be like if APD people could only interact with other APD people?
it might be rather interesting to observe!

reply to post by FrostyPhilosopher


I respect and hear what your saying but wonder why 'they shouldn't be blamed like a normal people'? What's ur mindset? Why should they not hold blame like anyone else who'd commit wrongdoings? Its not like they're mentally handicapped, emotionally yes, mentally, no. You can't manipulate the way they do and be mentally deficient. If you haven't, please read my posts her, think about it and then explain to me why this person should hold blame if not like 'normal people'?

You're really overestimating their emotional capacity. They don't love, they don't feel remorse or regret. They don't understand suffering or sympathy and they certainly don't know compassion themselves. They aren't tormented or have trouble dealing with anything they do to others. They have no conscious to make them feel bad it guilty. If you have no guilt or remorse for your actions you don't suffer. They actually feel justified in what they do,even proud afterwards. I can't give compassion to someone who will continue abusing and taking advantage of everyone around them. I'd feel compassion for someone who acknowledges their mistakes and tries to change and amend things, definitely not for someone who commits the same horrible acts over and over.

Your compassion would be wasted just like any love or affection you'd offer. They feel nothing inside. They're a shell of a human, a walking, talking, soul less husk. They want to destroy anything good by just about any means.

If you haven't read my posts on this thread, please do so. Read it and mull it over and then please, tell me why they shouldn't carry blame like every other person.

Kim

how can compassion ever be wasted?

none of us know if someday it won't be us in need of compassion - for any reason whatsoever. if we don't give compassion, we won't find any coming our way when we need it.



[edit on 8/5/2010 by queenannie38]

reply to post by queenannie38


APD people meeting could be really good or really bad. I think it all depends on the factors at play the only borderline APD case I've seen is my own cousin who has a multitude of other neurological disorders that are NOT treated; ADD (attention Deficit Disorder) OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and a few other minor social disorders.

At one family event he and another one of my cousins, who also has OCD and ADD (treated), ended up in a near physical altercation because of a minor thing. Though its not two APD cases I'm sure that it would be the same. It could go very well at first but a minor thing like who ate the last piece of pizza would set them off. APD cases are very intriguing because one moment they can be cool and collected and perfectly decent then the next they can be attacking you because you didn't agree with them. So you can imagine the carnage left after two APD cases are left in a room together. Can you say cage fight?

On a psychological stand point It would be fascinating to see two APD cases in the same room and watch their actions, my guess would be the non violent cases, which are harder to detect. On a sociological standpoint it would be even more fascinating because they cannot judge social norms. It would be and insight as to what the world would be like without the social norms and acceptable actions. Just Pure human instinct. Hmmm I wonder if I could get an ethics board to allow me to do this for my PhD thesis... I hope so to be the first psychologist to study this would be a dream come true. Only problem is no ethics board would let me. All patients must come in and leave the same, damn you ethics preventing me from studying potentially non ethical people *shakes fist*

Also I'm Glad people are reading my article and now using the term APD instead of psychopath or sociopath.. My work on educating even a few people is done. Hopefully others will spread this new knowledge and we can be more accepting to those suffering from this disorder.

Xiamara

Still looking for a good thesis....

Xiamara:

Do you know how to get rid of all mental disorders, and personality disorders??
I DO.









































Get completely rid of all psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Dear Mr. Seeker of Truth,

Your age is written all over your post.
Never the less.

"Medical science? When it still have not even scratch the surface of comprehension how the mind works, with everything still knowledge in progress?"

We have no treatment for RABIES. The best thing to do with a rabid dog is to shoot it.
You would demonstrate compassion to a rabid dog, can we ship the RABID dogs to your house so you can be compassionate?

There are certain Dx'es APD that there is no treatment for, so compassionately either lock them up for the remainder of their life, and if circumstances warrant, execution.

Slugger9787,

Your ignorance is astounding. Remove psychologists, and such will remove mental disorders... Its like saying removing doctors will ensure. The problem will still exist but people wont know how to treat it. People with schizophrenia will be deemed possessed by the devil and burned as witches.

Also for your information APD is manageable, the DSM IV is soon to become outdated as the DSM V comes out I believe in 2010-2011 It will be updated with new treatments on many disorders including APD. At this point in time APD is treated with therapy and those with an aggressive tendency are treated as most aggressive patients are with mood stabilizers.

Not all APD patients are aggressive or need to be locked up. The link I provided shows the symptoms that they have they don't NEED all of them, just a few and some of them like inability to feel guilt or unable to hold down a job and such are non aggressive symptoms.


EDIT:

as for rabies umm ever taken your dog to get their rabies shot to prevent rabies? also humans can contract rabies and there is a cure so your analogy doesn't quite work out... Sorry buddy

[edit on 5-8-2010 by Xiamara]

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Unity_99

 

I fully understand that the naivety and heart of some people will prevent them from accepting that some people are BORN evil and will REMAIN evil no matter what we do. Furthermore, they will USE any bit of sympathy via compassion you provide towards them.

I've said this too many times on this thread. Broken record.

Sociopathy/secondary psychopathy is acquired. Primary psychopathy is not, it is fully genetic.

Very hard to reconcile this truth for the spiritually inclined individual, hence the point of this thread.

Just because we really wish something is not, doesn't make it so..

No one was born evil. Our souls mainly have the memories sealed and all are equal and innocent at birth. Though all here are not perfect, and are in school/prison. Yet, sociopaths were beautiful little children, facing horrible conditions. Pscyhopathy/sociopathy is a process that is done, and its akin to what the Nazi's did to break people.

Akin to M'Kultra. The black ops and cia work hard at this systematic program to turn out controlled psychopaths.

And they work hard at creating such an ugly world this is the reality.

The truth is, do not judge, and feel strong love for every soul here. The truth is, this is all a test, and every day is a test as well, and in this school, compassion and love and not judging is a part of what it takes to progress.

The truth is, our Higher Selves are very strict with us, and those who seek not to judge others and desire equality, and a loving free world without hunger or homelessness, with healthy healed children and no one living in despair, who do not judge others at all, but wish healing, well this is how we'll go through our reviews as well.





[edit on 5-8-2010 by Unity_99]

reply to post by queenannie38


I dont think you've been in a situation to where You've had to deal with someone with this. You might know someone or come across them but to be subject to them without choice is more than some can understand. Whether people are 'born evil' or not, I dont know?? I do know that it takes an evil person to do the things she's done. Would you feel compassion for those who torment and torture others because they can? I dont feel compassion for someone who's done the things they have, it is definately wasted on some pple. I have no compassion for molesters or parents that beat their children resulting in a lifetime of seizures. like she did my brother. Especially those theyre supposed to protect and love.

I spent 30 yrs of my life forgiving and giving compassion to someone who has no idea how to be a decent human being. I've begged for love and acceptance where it should be a given. I've made excuses for her over and again. She has no regret, there is only her in her f'ed up world. That is how compassion can be a waste. I have compassion for those who suffer, those who want to change their ways and are sorry for the things they've done. I havent any for cold hearted, down right rotten ppl who take advantage of and abuse those who cant protect themselves. Theyre okay with it, they havent a problem with the pain they cause others and even enjoy it. She's autonomous, a robot, who doesnt suffer because she's unable to.

Are you really okay with molestors and child beaters? Do you honestly feel sorry for those who allow their kids to be abused sexually? Those who drop off and leave their 10 yr old to take care of a 7 year old and a 6 month old, days, sometimes a wk or 2 at a time? Thats when I think compassion is wasted. Place that compassion with the victims, with my brothers, not some shell of a person who doesnt care to accept the help thats offered. You can only say what you'd do hypothetically. With all respect intended, honest, live it and get back to me.


I'd like to add that I wish no harm to her, She's my mom. I mourn for the mother we've never had and deserved. I dont want her locked up or executed but help should be forced upon her, for her sake and everyone elses. Who knows, she might even become decent to the other lives around her. My brothers and I liken her to the Grinch but her heart never did grow. Gotta make jokes where you can, sometimes thats the only way you can deal.
Kim

[edit on 8/5/10 by Demetre]