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Two Natures of Christ....What Are They?
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Two Natures of Christ.......What Are They?
That Jesus is truly man is shown by his calling himself man and being called man. He is the "man of sorrows." He is "the man Christ Jesus." He most frequently designated himself the "Son of man." This title is given to him eighty times in the NT.
He had a material body of flesh and blood. Text"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." (Heb. 2:14) Jesus himself said "A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39) He was born of the Virgin Mary, and his body grew to maturity as do other human bodies. He was the descendant of Eve, of the seed of Abraham, and the Son of David.
He not only merely "appeared" or "seemed" to have a physical body, as was held by the Docetists, certain of the ancient Gnostics who denied the reality of his human body, but he actually had a body. But Jesus was not human only in the sense that he had a human body. He also possessed a natural human soul. He is said to have "increased in wisdom," which is possible only on the ground that he had a human spirit, for the divine spirit is omniscient.
He declared himself ignorant of the time of the judgment day, which can be explained on the ground of his possessing a finite mind. His soul was "exceeding sorrowful" (Matt. 26:38), he "rejoiced in spirit" (Luke 10:21), "feared," "groaned," "wept," all of which activities pertain to the human soul rather than to God. Possessing both a human body and soul, Jesus was truly man complete, yet without sin.
Complete Divine Nature in Christ - Jesus is also truly God.
Divine works are attributed to him. All things are said to have been created through him. He claimed authority to forgive sins. He has ever been God supreme to Christians. He claimed to be one with the Father and equally worthy of honor. He was truly God as well as truly man.
Incarnation of God in Christ - The truth of the divine incarnation is further proof of a divine and human nature in Christ. The very idea of divine incarnation is that God has come into the flesh.
No text is more worthy of citation in proof of the incarnation that is John 1:1-3, 14'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made...........And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." That the Word is a person is clear from his being God, Creator, and from the use of the personal pronoun concerning him.
Also John opens his first epistle with a statement of the great truth of the divine incarnation. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life; (for life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)" (I John I:I, 2).
Before Jesus was made in the "likeness" of men he was in the form of God. The form of a thing is determined by its nature. He was in the form of God because he was God. Also he was equal with God, implying that in some sense he was related to God. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Tim. 3:16).
The Scriptures teach a divine incarnation - not merely an incarnation of the divine nature, divine attributes, or divine principle, but an incarnation of of the personal Son. Not only the Son, but the Father and the Holy Spirit possess the divine nature; yet only the Son is said to have come in the flesh.
By use of Scripture it has already been shown that both divine and human attributes belong to Christ. But attributes must inhere in a substance or a nature. The attributes of matter are always connected with material substance, and those of mind with a spiritual nature. Christ had two natures in the sense that he possessed two sets of attributes or qualities - the human and the divine. But two natures do not always require two persons. Christ was one person combining two distinct natures in personal oneness by a unique and mysterious bond.
It is natural and not improper to seek an explanation of the problem of Christology to show how he can be truly God and truly man and yet but one person.
Personality belonged to the divine nature of Christ prior to the incarnation, but his human nature had no existence and certainly no distinct personality of its own at any time. Yet when the logos became incarnate, the personality of the second person of the Trinity must have been modified by its union with human nature. Christ possessed both divine and human facts of consciousness, yet he was one person. This union of the divine and human natures in one person in Christ was necessary to the atonement. Without it his suffering and death must have been that of a mere man. But with a theanthropic personality suffering for man's sin, a dignity is given to the offering for sin that is equal to every demand.
So what do you think? So it may truly said of man that he is both mortal and immortal, material and spiritual, of the dust of the earth and a child of God! There has been so much on ATS lately about if Christ even existed and if he existed, was he really God's Son! I don't know if this will help, but maybe it will connect with someone.
Peace to all
Grandma
That Jesus is truly man is shown by his calling himself man and being called man. He is the "man of sorrows." He is "the man Christ Jesus." He most frequently designated himself the "Son of man." This title is given to him eighty times in the NT.
He had a material body of flesh and blood. Text"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." (Heb. 2:14) Jesus himself said "A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39) He was born of the Virgin Mary, and his body grew to maturity as do other human bodies. He was the descendant of Eve, of the seed of Abraham, and the Son of David.
He not only merely "appeared" or "seemed" to have a physical body, as was held by the Docetists, certain of the ancient Gnostics who denied the reality of his human body, but he actually had a body. But Jesus was not human only in the sense that he had a human body. He also possessed a natural human soul. He is said to have "increased in wisdom," which is possible only on the ground that he had a human spirit, for the divine spirit is omniscient.
He declared himself ignorant of the time of the judgment day, which can be explained on the ground of his possessing a finite mind. His soul was "exceeding sorrowful" (Matt. 26:38), he "rejoiced in spirit" (Luke 10:21), "feared," "groaned," "wept," all of which activities pertain to the human soul rather than to God. Possessing both a human body and soul, Jesus was truly man complete, yet without sin.
Complete Divine Nature in Christ - Jesus is also truly God.
Divine works are attributed to him. All things are said to have been created through him. He claimed authority to forgive sins. He has ever been God supreme to Christians. He claimed to be one with the Father and equally worthy of honor. He was truly God as well as truly man.
Incarnation of God in Christ - The truth of the divine incarnation is further proof of a divine and human nature in Christ. The very idea of divine incarnation is that God has come into the flesh.
No text is more worthy of citation in proof of the incarnation that is John 1:1-3, 14'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made...........And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." That the Word is a person is clear from his being God, Creator, and from the use of the personal pronoun concerning him.
Also John opens his first epistle with a statement of the great truth of the divine incarnation. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life; (for life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)" (I John I:I, 2).
Before Jesus was made in the "likeness" of men he was in the form of God. The form of a thing is determined by its nature. He was in the form of God because he was God. Also he was equal with God, implying that in some sense he was related to God. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Tim. 3:16).
The Scriptures teach a divine incarnation - not merely an incarnation of the divine nature, divine attributes, or divine principle, but an incarnation of of the personal Son. Not only the Son, but the Father and the Holy Spirit possess the divine nature; yet only the Son is said to have come in the flesh.
By use of Scripture it has already been shown that both divine and human attributes belong to Christ. But attributes must inhere in a substance or a nature. The attributes of matter are always connected with material substance, and those of mind with a spiritual nature. Christ had two natures in the sense that he possessed two sets of attributes or qualities - the human and the divine. But two natures do not always require two persons. Christ was one person combining two distinct natures in personal oneness by a unique and mysterious bond.
It is natural and not improper to seek an explanation of the problem of Christology to show how he can be truly God and truly man and yet but one person.
Personality belonged to the divine nature of Christ prior to the incarnation, but his human nature had no existence and certainly no distinct personality of its own at any time. Yet when the logos became incarnate, the personality of the second person of the Trinity must have been modified by its union with human nature. Christ possessed both divine and human facts of consciousness, yet he was one person. This union of the divine and human natures in one person in Christ was necessary to the atonement. Without it his suffering and death must have been that of a mere man. But with a theanthropic personality suffering for man's sin, a dignity is given to the offering for sin that is equal to every demand.
So what do you think? So it may truly said of man that he is both mortal and immortal, material and spiritual, of the dust of the earth and a child of God! There has been so much on ATS lately about if Christ even existed and if he existed, was he really God's Son! I don't know if this will help, but maybe it will connect with someone.
Peace to all
Grandma
reply to post by Grandma
Thanks Grandma...I'm listening. As a long time believer I'm always looking for ways to expand my understanding of the dual nature of Christ. You helped. Thanks!
Thanks Grandma...I'm listening. As a long time believer I'm always looking for ways to expand my understanding of the dual nature of Christ. You helped. Thanks!
Originally posted by Grandma
So it may truly said of man that he is both mortal and immortal, material and spiritual, of the dust of the earth and a child of God!
The above is true for all of us not just for Yeshua.
I think many people would benefit from looking at the roots of the messianic prophecy, it seems to me that people are applying superhero style labels that where never meant to be applied.
The child of god thing especially, its something we all are, a portion of the divine essence, it is not a reason to be exalting Yeshua above even yourself, he was mortal, don't kid yourself.
He taught a lot of things that were not widely discussed at the time, lessons contained within the oral torah which have then gone on to undergo misinterpretation or misrepresentation as they are presented and taught within the new testament.
Well as you can tell I dont think he was the Messiah.
I've always wondered, how is it that people can use a book, that isn't the book the prophecy came from, to justify the fulfillment of the prophecy, which has in fact not been fulfilled according to the original criteria.
So with that in mind lets look at the original criteria and compare it with events according to the new testament.
* Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."
I'll grant this is open to interpretation, the Jewish point of view is it relates to the reformation of the Sanhedrin. This is coming to fruition now however it certainly wasn't the state of play 2000 years ago when rabbinical jewdiasm was getting its feet wet and changing the face of the religion, before ultimately getting booted out by the Roman's.
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
Again you could argue about this, but he certainly has never been accepted as king of the people who the prophecy was aimed at, and whilst some leaders of the nations will look to the church im not quite sure that the same thing. This however was definitely not fulfilled during his life.
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
This has almost come to pass now, were actually closer to this then ever before, but still were not quite there yet, and you could say Mohammad had just as much to do with that as Yeshua.
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
There is dispute over the meaning of this, there are people who consider this one of the signs that there will be two messiahs, one after the other, with the first needing to die (not with interference by the second) in order for the second to realize their full potential and take on the king / christ messiah role. Others say its simply a family reference. I admit im not up on my New Testament family tree, I dont believe anything specific is mentioned but maybe im wrong. Some say it alludes to both.
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
This does fit Yeshuas description by all accounts so ill give you that.
* He will come from Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
So it would seem, he gets a point there.
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Yea thats why the Romans and the Pharisees essentially murdered him which required divine intervention to recover from before making a quick exit stage left. Its also why the world is in the state is today, cos this part was clearly fulfilled. That's sarcasm by the way.
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
Id give this to him, Id say that's a direct effect of his work, though not his alone of course.
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
The church has certainly attempted to do this in the time since his "ascendancy", did he do it in his life time ? No he didn't, though he was a very kind man who certainly would have given it his best shot if it werent for the whole nailed to a cross thing.
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
It says Israelites it means Isrealites (children of the line of Israel) it doesn't mean jews alone, it refers to all the tribes, and this is not even remotely close to being done now, let alone 2000 years ago.
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
This has not been done, Christians will disagree and say oh but it means eternal spiritual life, and maybe it does, but it also refers to an eternal existence where everything is raised up, this has obviously yet to happen.
And no its not about eternal life after you die, that would be pretty rubbish, as it was something already present in the texts.
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
Do I need to tell you that this hasn't happened ?
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
Now its true Jesus was a well known Necromancer but he didn't quite manage ALL of the dead did he.
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
Obviously not happened.
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Yea ok he was.
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
Haha
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
Haha
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Not 2000 years ago.
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
This means everywhere which has yet to happen ever.
* The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)
Clearly not done, though he did throw some whores out the old temple.
* Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[3]
I wish, and certainly when the rabbinical jews took power this was never to be the case.
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
Im pretty sure Jesus didnt do this.
Im running out of space, the point is that which is I AM is your LORD and DIVINE MASTER, Jesus is your teacher not some superspiritman flying around saving the day, study what he taught not what the church teaches, make him proud.
reply to post by gYvMessanger
gyvMessanger:
Peace to you! I am sorry that you missed the whole point of my thread. I was discussing the "Two Natures of Christ. About his being both a man and God in the flesh.
About some of this other stuff you brought up concerning prophecies about Christ and how nothing seems to be happening yet. I beg to differ with you. There are prophecies that have already happened. Israel is a state of their own. One only needs to look at the papers to see we are headed for a NWO. A one government and money system. A one world relegion headed by the Pope in Rome, hence, Daniel's prophecy about the Roman Empire coming to rise again.
Yes, we are in the evening times of the Second Coming of Christ. All these things that were prophecy to happen will happen all when the Lord is ready for them to happen.
You see I do believe that Christ is the messiah and through him we all have a pathway to the Father. Jesus said, "That who soever beleives in me, I will also believe in him." I BELIEVE
I don't worry about what all has to happen before Christ's Second Coming. I trust the Lord that he is more than able to handle that department. Jesus said, to stay alert, that he would come back like a theif in the night.
But of course if you do not believe him to be the messiah, than this really doesn't concern you and I don't know why you tried to turn my thread into something that it wasn't.
But I do thank you for your input,
Grandma
gyvMessanger:
Peace to you! I am sorry that you missed the whole point of my thread. I was discussing the "Two Natures of Christ. About his being both a man and God in the flesh.
About some of this other stuff you brought up concerning prophecies about Christ and how nothing seems to be happening yet. I beg to differ with you. There are prophecies that have already happened. Israel is a state of their own. One only needs to look at the papers to see we are headed for a NWO. A one government and money system. A one world relegion headed by the Pope in Rome, hence, Daniel's prophecy about the Roman Empire coming to rise again.
Yes, we are in the evening times of the Second Coming of Christ. All these things that were prophecy to happen will happen all when the Lord is ready for them to happen.
You see I do believe that Christ is the messiah and through him we all have a pathway to the Father. Jesus said, "That who soever beleives in me, I will also believe in him." I BELIEVE
I don't worry about what all has to happen before Christ's Second Coming. I trust the Lord that he is more than able to handle that department. Jesus said, to stay alert, that he would come back like a theif in the night.
But of course if you do not believe him to be the messiah, than this really doesn't concern you and I don't know why you tried to turn my thread into something that it wasn't.
But I do thank you for your input,
Grandma
I have some disagreements.
First off, I'm going to start with a quote from Jesus in John 3.
So this is basically the 2 natures you speak of. The flesh and the spirit.
Mary was not the virgin. The father(God) is the virgin. His flesh was born of Joseph and Mary. His spirit was born of the father, who is the virgin. People think that Mary must have been the virgin, but this can't possibilly be true, as any Jewish person will tell you, God will not bypass the laws of Nature, which is what would have happened for Mary to be the virgin. At one point he even denies Mary is his mother.
You must be born again. You must be born of the spirit. What does this mean?
So it's a matter of do you see yourself as being flesh, or do you see yourself as being born of spirit, born of the virgin, born of the father.
This is not something which can be faked. It is something you will know outright for yourself. You will experience John 14:20 for yourself. This is followed by the holy ghost who will teach you all things. This is a very important event in ones life. This event happened to me and it completely changed my life, my perspective and everything. And it all happened without religion. Just a short few years ago you would have never seen me in these types of discussions.
When this happens, then you are "born again". Then you will see and know that you are the son/daughter of the father. You will know that death is NOT real, and that only your body and flesh can die, but you and what you truly are(soul/spirit) does not die. This is why Jesus says fear not those who only have power to kill the flesh, but not the spirit. \
Many many other understandings also come when you are born of the spirit.
Those who see themselves as flesh and not spirit are called the children of the devil. When you see atheists and such talk, they do not see themselves as being consciousness, soul or spirit. They believe themselves to be nothing more than flesh.
Science completely ignores consciousness, soul and spirit. And that is where it goes wrong as well. It defines people as being flesh, not as being of spirit. Not that all science is "bad", but it is certainly avoiding the truth, and is not equipped to handle things that are outside the boundaries of logic, action and reaction.
As Jesus says, Marvel not that I say you must be born again. Flesh will not enter into the kingdom, only spirit and soul will.
I'm glad you brought this thread up, because this is something I have come to understand only recently, and I am anxious to hear other opinions. I understood being born of the father and such since John 14:20 happened to me, but in terms of the bible matching what I learned, this is somewhat new to me.
[edit on 10-2-2009 by badmedia]
First off, I'm going to start with a quote from Jesus in John 3.
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
So this is basically the 2 natures you speak of. The flesh and the spirit.
Mary was not the virgin. The father(God) is the virgin. His flesh was born of Joseph and Mary. His spirit was born of the father, who is the virgin. People think that Mary must have been the virgin, but this can't possibilly be true, as any Jewish person will tell you, God will not bypass the laws of Nature, which is what would have happened for Mary to be the virgin. At one point he even denies Mary is his mother.
You must be born again. You must be born of the spirit. What does this mean?
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
So it's a matter of do you see yourself as being flesh, or do you see yourself as being born of spirit, born of the virgin, born of the father.
This is not something which can be faked. It is something you will know outright for yourself. You will experience John 14:20 for yourself. This is followed by the holy ghost who will teach you all things. This is a very important event in ones life. This event happened to me and it completely changed my life, my perspective and everything. And it all happened without religion. Just a short few years ago you would have never seen me in these types of discussions.
When this happens, then you are "born again". Then you will see and know that you are the son/daughter of the father. You will know that death is NOT real, and that only your body and flesh can die, but you and what you truly are(soul/spirit) does not die. This is why Jesus says fear not those who only have power to kill the flesh, but not the spirit. \
Many many other understandings also come when you are born of the spirit.
Those who see themselves as flesh and not spirit are called the children of the devil. When you see atheists and such talk, they do not see themselves as being consciousness, soul or spirit. They believe themselves to be nothing more than flesh.
Science completely ignores consciousness, soul and spirit. And that is where it goes wrong as well. It defines people as being flesh, not as being of spirit. Not that all science is "bad", but it is certainly avoiding the truth, and is not equipped to handle things that are outside the boundaries of logic, action and reaction.
As Jesus says, Marvel not that I say you must be born again. Flesh will not enter into the kingdom, only spirit and soul will.
I'm glad you brought this thread up, because this is something I have come to understand only recently, and I am anxious to hear other opinions. I understood being born of the father and such since John 14:20 happened to me, but in terms of the bible matching what I learned, this is somewhat new to me.
[edit on 10-2-2009 by badmedia]
Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Originally posted by Grandma
So it may truly said of man that he is both mortal and immortal, material and spiritual, of the dust of the earth and a child of God!
The above is true for all of us not just for Yeshua.
I think many people would benefit from looking at the roots of the messianic prophecy, it seems to me that people are applying superhero style labels that where never meant to be applied.
The child of god thing especially, its something we all are, a portion of the divine essence, it is not a reason to be exalting Yeshua above even yourself, he was mortal, don't kid yourself.
He taught a lot of things that were not widely discussed at the time, lessons contained within the oral torah which have then gone on to undergo misinterpretation or misrepresentation as they are presented and taught within the new testament.
Well as you can tell I dont think he was the Messiah.
[color=#FF0000]He knew all men. No other way around except "by me". "I am with you, even until the end of the age." "To the least of these, so to have you done unto me." "Love your neighbor as yourself
I've always wondered, how is it that people can use a book, that isn't the book the prophecy came from, to justify the fulfillment of the prophecy, which has in fact not been fulfilled according to the original criteria.
So with that in mind lets look at the original criteria and compare it with events according to the new testament.
* Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."
[color=#FF0000]"God is a spirit, and must be worshipped in spirit and truth." Because God says he is always living and that his actions are manifest and justified, we must look at this in word marked with action in truth. The leaders of Egypt ARE the ones ruling, just as in the beginning. Egypt means Miriam "EmitsRiam". "Out of Egypt/Mary I have called my people He will rule as God" "In that day Egypt will be first, then Assur, Then Yisrael will be third"
We are "Born in the Usa" Joseph who is still in Ameri "to this day"
I'll grant this is open to interpretation, the Jewish point of view is it relates to the reformation of the Sanhedrin. This is coming to fruition now however it certainly wasn't the state of play 2000 years ago when rabbinical jewdiasm was getting its feet wet and changing the face of the religion, before ultimately getting booted out by the Roman's.
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
Again you could argue about this, but he certainly has never been accepted as king of the people who the prophecy was aimed at, and whilst some leaders of the nations will look to the church im not quite sure that the same thing. This however was definitely not fulfilled during his life.
[color=#FF0000]He is ALL lives. " At the hand of EVERY MAN do I require blood"
This can come flowing in Red or White depending on the Orgy it is representing. Death or Life.
"He came for the REMISSION of sins" "By his knowledge HE SHALL JUSTIFY MANY". "Those who had been beheaded for the witness OF JESUS". "he shall Startle many nations"
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
This has almost come to pass now, were actually closer to this then ever before, but still were not quite there yet, and you could say Mohammad had just as much to do with that as Yeshua.
[color=#FF0000]"Israel = He will rule as God, He who prevails with God." God says he is living, where ever you go, he is there. As paul says, "We are like someone who saw our reflection then strait away forget what we look like".
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
There is dispute over the meaning of this, there are people who consider this one of the signs that there will be two messiahs, one after the other, with the first needing to die (not with interference by the second) in order for the second to realize their full potential and take on the king / christ messiah role. Others say its simply a family reference. I admit im not up on my New Testament family tree, I dont believe anything specific is mentioned but maybe im wrong. Some say it alludes to both.
[color=#FF0000]He is decended from Dood meaning "loved". Loved is an Attribute. "God regards no individual". Being all, he is the living host of our party hear.
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
This does fit Yeshuas description by all accounts so ill give you that.
* He will come from Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
So it would seem, he gets a point there.
[color=#FF0000]House of bread, "Amber waves of grain".
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Yea thats why the Romans and the Pharisees essentially murdered him which required divine intervention to recover from before making a quick exit stage left. Its also why the world is in the state is today, cos this part was clearly fulfilled. That's sarcasm by the way.
[color=#FF0000]The story is "to this day". You can't be the beginning and End if the end has not happened yet. Jesus means "Self existent salvation".
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
Id give this to him, Id say that's a direct effect of his work, though not his alone of course.
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
The church has certainly attempted to do this in the time since his "ascendancy", did he do it in his life time ? No he didn't, though he was a very kind man who certainly would have given it his best shot if it werent for the whole nailed to a cross thing.
[color=#FF0000]The only ascendancy that will ever occur is through the blood.
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
It says Israelites it means Isrealites (children of the line of Israel) it doesn't mean jews alone, it refers to all the tribes, and this is not even remotely close to being done now, let alone 2000 years ago.
This is being done now. Be blessed.
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
This has not been done, Christians will disagree and say oh but it means eternal spiritual life, and maybe it does, but it also refers to an eternal existence where everything is raised up, this has obviously yet to happen.
And no its not about eternal life after you die, that would be pretty rubbish, as it was something already present in the texts.
[color=#FF0000]This is done the moment you die or are "cast" for you will never drink of it again, at least not remembering you drank it before you won't "if you be fruitful and multiply"
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
Do I need to tell you that this hasn't happened ?
[color=#FF0000]
"It is given to a man to die once"...this goes on forever. The lord does not change for they are a very stiffnecked people. He props himself up, but you need evil and good for that or no pupit show. Once your dead, they do indeed cease.
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
Now its true Jesus was a well known Necromancer but he didn't quite manage ALL of the dead did he.
[color=#FF0000]Death hasn't been fully consumed. The only way the land will truly rest, is when all are dead. Then will the spirit be free to create a new creation.
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
Obviously not happened.
[color=#FF0000]This has happened. Judah means Celebrity. Who is the number one Icon in the world? Jesus.
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Yea ok he was.
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
Haha
[color=#FF0000]Nations means "Kin". Israel = He will rule as god. Spoken any negatives towards anyone today?
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
[color=#FF0000]People turn to celebrities every day for spiritual guidance.
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Not 2000 years ago.
He is all men. We see it in small steps, but he is taking the first and the last step and recalling all inbetween. The wheel revolves, but only one point touches the earth in 360 degrees
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) [color=#FF0000]For seven years.
This means everywhere which has yet to happen ever.
[color=#FF0000]Again, this happens all the time. We call them treaties, proliferation, and such.
* The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)
Clearly not done, though he did throw some whores out the old temple.
[color=#FF0000]Whores are the temple, can't throw them out of themselves.
Again, Done, called the Baby Boom Generation. The one "the dove" landed on...."It's freedom rock man...turn it up". All about incents and pepperments.
"They thought him to be speaking of the physical temple, yet he was speaking of the body"
[edit on 11-2-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]
For some reason whenever I try and reply to this thread it logs me out.
This is gYvMessanger.
My point and what I was trying to bring to this thread is that Jesus is not god, and therefore not the holy spirit made flesh.
As for who is and is not the Messiah, I agree we will find out soon enough.
This is gYvMessanger.
My point and what I was trying to bring to this thread is that Jesus is not god, and therefore not the holy spirit made flesh.
As for who is and is not the Messiah, I agree we will find out soon enough.
reply to post by Grandma
Beginning and End.
Savior and Destroyer.
Jesus and Judas.
Saul and David.
Moses and Aaron.
The Great Delusion and The Great Deluge.
Ying and Yang.
Heaven and Earth.
Icon and Idol.
Selfless and Selfish
Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,
Isa 45:6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else;
Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Beginning and End.
Savior and Destroyer.
Jesus and Judas.
Saul and David.
Moses and Aaron.
The Great Delusion and The Great Deluge.
Ying and Yang.
Heaven and Earth.
Icon and Idol.
Selfless and Selfish
Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,
Isa 45:6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else;
Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
I have determined and feel I have come up with some substantial proof that Jesus was God in human form. Please read on and allow me to show it with
proof of scripture. I will be referencing and writing scripture throughout this letter, and I will add a few notes also.
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Colossians 1:14-17)
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) (1 Timothy 3:16)
John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John 1:26 KJV) (John 5:18, John 1:10)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (John 2:19 KJV) (Also, refer to John 10:18, 1 Peter 3:18)
Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,"(Heb. 13:20)
Jesus' Temple (Body) was destroyed (John 19:30, Matthew 27:50)
Jesus' Body was raised up in three days (John 20:1-29, Matthew 28:7-10)
Jesus did ascend up into heaven (21:1-25, Luke 24:51, Mark 16:19), and will descend from heaven in the same manner; this is noted in 1 Thessolonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26.
Therefore prophecy was fulfilled, and he(Jesus) spoke it in scripture, and fulfilled what was said in John 2:19
God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:24-26, Isaiah 41:4)
Jesus proclaimed to be the Messiah in John 4:24-26.
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broke the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18) (Also see John 5:19-30, Deut 5:13-15)
Then said they unto him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me, nor my father: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8:19) (Also see John 8:29, John 8:42, Matthew 11:27)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him(God); and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
He(Jesus;the true light) was in the World, and the World was made by him(Jesus), and the World knew him not. (John 1:10) (refer to Genesis 1:1, John 1:26, John 8:12, Deut 4:32)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV) (Hebrews 1:2-3)
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."(Col. 1:16-17)
"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."(Job 33:4)
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."(Isaiah 40:28)
The above not only states that Jesus made the World, in the book of Genesis God claims to have made the very same World.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom(heart) of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)
I repeat,
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him. (John 1:18 NLT)
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. (Luke 10:22)
I've two exceptions to this. This is as follows, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:8-9)
And the second exception is in Genesis 18, where three men appeared to Abraham, and the Lord spoke about child bearing.
Now back to Jesus!
Now we know from commandment that we are not to tempt the Lord thy God. In the book of Matthew, Jesus once again, gives a clear indication that he is the one not to be tempted. Jesus states this after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’" (Matthew 4:6-7, Deuteronomy 6:16)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5) (refer to Deut 6:4)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and You in me, and I in you. (John 14:20) (Also refer to John 17:11, John 17:21)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater that I. (John 14:28)
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (John 15:23)
Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jesus Clearly states equality with his Father here, and Jesus states his power and authority:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. (John 10:29-30) (refer to John 10:38)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philipians 2:5-8)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him(Jesus), Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth with us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been with so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hast seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:7-11)
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:1-3)
Jesus clearly states this:
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:15)
It is clear that in John 16:15 Jesus declares that he is equal with his Father(YHWH, YHVH, JEHOVAH, the Creator, God Almighty).
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the World: again, I leave the World, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the World was. (John 17:5)
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: (Hebrews 9:24)
From the book of John at John 17:5, it may seem that from this statement that Jesus declares that him and his Father are two seperate spiritual beings. But clearly in other passages it is shown that the Father and Jesus are One in the Same, and that there is only One God. So what can be drawn from this statement? That Jesus was seperated from his spiritual Godly form due to his confinement in human Godly form. What a sacrifice that must have been for God. Even though Jesus and the Father were within one another, they were seperated between the barriers of the physical(seen) realm and the spiritual(unseen by the physical) heavenly realm. No wonder Jesus anticipated his return to his Father. A body would have felt like a prison in comparison to the freedom of being a spiritual and heavenly being.
From the yiddish proverb we surely can understand that “A half-truth is a whole lie”
We can tell from the above quoted biblical scripture that the whole truth is that Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, and that is no lie.
Now in conclusion I would like to make a few more important connections out of scripture.
God will Judge man in the Last Day. (John 12:48)
The Father delivered man into Jesus' hand to Judge. (John 5:22) Hence, God(Jesus) will Judge man in the last day. (refer to Deut 1:17)
The bible clearly states to Fear God, for the Hour of His Judgement has come. (Revelation 14:7) (Also see Revelation 19:1-2, Romans 14:10)
"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."(2 Tim. 4:1) (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."(2 Cor. 5:10, Joel 3:12)
God will dwell with man in new Jerusalem; the paradise Earth. (Revelation 21:3-7, Revelation 22:3-4)
Jesus was the word of God. Jesus was Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. The Lamb of God. The Prince. (Revelation 19:11-16) (Psalm 47:2, 1 Timothy 6:15)
Jesus is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning aand the End. Yes he had a beginning as a human being, and yes he was created as a human being, allowing him to be the only begotten Son of God; None-the-less, he existed in Spirit first, and was in the beginning with God, and if God Almighty had no beginning in Spirit(at least not one that we as human beings can comprehend), then it's likewise with Jesus Christ! Jesus was subject to a physical death, and not a spiritual death. Jesus is forevermore, eternal, always...(Revelation 22:13, John 17:5)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."(Isaiah 44:6)(Isaiah 48:12, Jeramiah 10:10)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me."(Isaiah 43:10)
"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."(Deut. 32:4) (2 Samuel 22:32, Deut. 7:9)
"...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."(1 Cor. 10
"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"(Isaiah 43:3) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)
"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."(Isaiah 45:21) (Deuteronomy 32:39, Titus 2:13, Isaiah 44:6)
Now my actual conclusion that I drew from scripture just blows me out of the water. In the book of Revelation, John clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is God! Read and learn, and you'll clearly see this. The bible interprets itself.
In Revelation 1:1, what does John say?
God sent the Revelation to John by way of his angel. (Revelation 1:1-2)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he(God) sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all the things he saw. (Revelation 1:1-2)
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
In Revelation 22:16, what does John recollect Jesus saying?
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16) (Revelation 2:8)
Was it God who sent the angel to John, or was it Jesus who sent the angel to John? Clearly there was only one angel who was sent to John to bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ! Clearly Jesus Christ and the Father are One. There is Only One God! Jesus Christ and the Father are that One God, and They are the same spirit in unity!
God is Love, and what greater Love can be given than to sacrifice his only begotten Son, himself, the Firstborn of God, God as Man, the Son of Man, his very own beloved creation. Then, he gave his life only to take it. Only God can have such power. (John 3:15-16)
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32 NIV)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. ( Luke 18:19)
Obviously, Jesus was referring to himself as God here!
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Colossians 1:14-17)
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) (1 Timothy 3:16)
John answered them, saying I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John 1:26 KJV) (John 5:18, John 1:10)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (John 2:19 KJV) (Also, refer to John 10:18, 1 Peter 3:18)
Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,"(Heb. 13:20)
Jesus' Temple (Body) was destroyed (John 19:30, Matthew 27:50)
Jesus' Body was raised up in three days (John 20:1-29, Matthew 28:7-10)
Jesus did ascend up into heaven (21:1-25, Luke 24:51, Mark 16:19), and will descend from heaven in the same manner; this is noted in 1 Thessolonians 4:16, Revelation 1:7, Luke 21:27, Mark 13:26.
Therefore prophecy was fulfilled, and he(Jesus) spoke it in scripture, and fulfilled what was said in John 2:19
God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:24-26, Isaiah 41:4)
Jesus proclaimed to be the Messiah in John 4:24-26.
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broke the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18) (Also see John 5:19-30, Deut 5:13-15)
Then said they unto him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me, nor my father: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (John 8:19) (Also see John 8:29, John 8:42, Matthew 11:27)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him(God); and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
He(Jesus;the true light) was in the World, and the World was made by him(Jesus), and the World knew him not. (John 1:10) (refer to Genesis 1:1, John 1:26, John 8:12, Deut 4:32)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV) (Hebrews 1:2-3)
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."(Col. 1:16-17)
"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."(Job 33:4)
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom."(Isaiah 40:28)
The above not only states that Jesus made the World, in the book of Genesis God claims to have made the very same World.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:23)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom(heart) of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)
I repeat,
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him. (John 1:18 NLT)
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. (Luke 10:22)
I've two exceptions to this. This is as follows, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:8-9)
And the second exception is in Genesis 18, where three men appeared to Abraham, and the Lord spoke about child bearing.
Now back to Jesus!
Now we know from commandment that we are not to tempt the Lord thy God. In the book of Matthew, Jesus once again, gives a clear indication that he is the one not to be tempted. Jesus states this after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’" (Matthew 4:6-7, Deuteronomy 6:16)
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5) (refer to Deut 6:4)
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and You in me, and I in you. (John 14:20) (Also refer to John 17:11, John 17:21)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater that I. (John 14:28)
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (John 15:23)
Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jesus Clearly states equality with his Father here, and Jesus states his power and authority:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. (John 10:29-30) (refer to John 10:38)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philipians 2:5-8)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him(Jesus), Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth with us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been with so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hast seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:7-11)
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:1-3)
Jesus clearly states this:
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:15)
It is clear that in John 16:15 Jesus declares that he is equal with his Father(YHWH, YHVH, JEHOVAH, the Creator, God Almighty).
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the World: again, I leave the World, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the World was. (John 17:5)
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: (Hebrews 9:24)
From the book of John at John 17:5, it may seem that from this statement that Jesus declares that him and his Father are two seperate spiritual beings. But clearly in other passages it is shown that the Father and Jesus are One in the Same, and that there is only One God. So what can be drawn from this statement? That Jesus was seperated from his spiritual Godly form due to his confinement in human Godly form. What a sacrifice that must have been for God. Even though Jesus and the Father were within one another, they were seperated between the barriers of the physical(seen) realm and the spiritual(unseen by the physical) heavenly realm. No wonder Jesus anticipated his return to his Father. A body would have felt like a prison in comparison to the freedom of being a spiritual and heavenly being.
From the yiddish proverb we surely can understand that “A half-truth is a whole lie”
We can tell from the above quoted biblical scripture that the whole truth is that Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, and that is no lie.
Now in conclusion I would like to make a few more important connections out of scripture.
God will Judge man in the Last Day. (John 12:48)
The Father delivered man into Jesus' hand to Judge. (John 5:22) Hence, God(Jesus) will Judge man in the last day. (refer to Deut 1:17)
The bible clearly states to Fear God, for the Hour of His Judgement has come. (Revelation 14:7) (Also see Revelation 19:1-2, Romans 14:10)
"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."(2 Tim. 4:1) (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."(2 Cor. 5:10, Joel 3:12)
God will dwell with man in new Jerusalem; the paradise Earth. (Revelation 21:3-7, Revelation 22:3-4)
Jesus was the word of God. Jesus was Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. The Lamb of God. The Prince. (Revelation 19:11-16) (Psalm 47:2, 1 Timothy 6:15)
Jesus is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning aand the End. Yes he had a beginning as a human being, and yes he was created as a human being, allowing him to be the only begotten Son of God; None-the-less, he existed in Spirit first, and was in the beginning with God, and if God Almighty had no beginning in Spirit(at least not one that we as human beings can comprehend), then it's likewise with Jesus Christ! Jesus was subject to a physical death, and not a spiritual death. Jesus is forevermore, eternal, always...(Revelation 22:13, John 17:5)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."(Isaiah 44:6)(Isaiah 48:12, Jeramiah 10:10)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me."(Isaiah 43:10)
"He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."(Deut. 32:4) (2 Samuel 22:32, Deut. 7:9)
"...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."(1 Cor. 10
"For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"(Isaiah 43:3) (1John 4:14, Zechariah 13:9)
"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."(Isaiah 45:21) (Deuteronomy 32:39, Titus 2:13, Isaiah 44:6)
Now my actual conclusion that I drew from scripture just blows me out of the water. In the book of Revelation, John clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is God! Read and learn, and you'll clearly see this. The bible interprets itself.
In Revelation 1:1, what does John say?
God sent the Revelation to John by way of his angel. (Revelation 1:1-2)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he(God) sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all the things he saw. (Revelation 1:1-2)
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
In Revelation 22:16, what does John recollect Jesus saying?
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16) (Revelation 2:8)
Was it God who sent the angel to John, or was it Jesus who sent the angel to John? Clearly there was only one angel who was sent to John to bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ! Clearly Jesus Christ and the Father are One. There is Only One God! Jesus Christ and the Father are that One God, and They are the same spirit in unity!
God is Love, and what greater Love can be given than to sacrifice his only begotten Son, himself, the Firstborn of God, God as Man, the Son of Man, his very own beloved creation. Then, he gave his life only to take it. Only God can have such power. (John 3:15-16)
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32 NIV)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. ( Luke 18:19)
Obviously, Jesus was referring to himself as God here!
reply to post by onehappyangel
Hello. I just wanted to bring spirit and truth up for a refresher in regards to the many nice scriptures you put up.
Spirit as understood by the Greek writers therefore, the same understanding that the Hebrew should have.
[color=#336666]Spirit
G4151 pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from G4154;
a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a
spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental
disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's
spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590
Spirit as understood by the Hebrew, which is the same understanding that the Greek should have. You will notice how the Hebrew forgoes any mention of Demons, Angels or Divine Beings. Keep that in mind.
[color=#339999]
Spirit
H7307 ruwach roo'-akh
from H7306;
wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;
figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by
resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and
functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X
side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).
It is my personal opinion, that what is stated originally would be the truth, since that was what was intended and meant to be conveyed. I would go with the Hebrew understanding if I were trying to perform the standards of that which I am conforming to and becoming.
Now lets take a look at what the common English reader understands the word spirit to mean. Again, if we were dealing in Truth, the next word we will look over, all of the meanings would be one. Anyway, on to Merriam-Web Dictionary's definition, the one most commonly understood and identified with.
1spir·it
Pronunciation:
\ˈspir-ət\
Function:
noun - person, place or thing
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, espirit, spirit, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date:
13th century
1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2: a supernatural being or essence: as acapitalized : holy spirit b: soul 2a c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible ; specifically : ghost 2 d: a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated
4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person b: an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood
6 a: a special attitude or frame of mind b: the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something
7: a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9: a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness
10 a: distillate 1: as (1): the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash —often used in plural (2): any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) —often used in plural b: a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a: prevailing tone or tendency b: general intent or real meaning
12: an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance
13: enthusiastic loyalty 14capitalized Christian Science : god
Now I understand, that everyone probably has a different take on what spirit is, and they should, it's a personal experience that will truly define that for them.
On to truth, the other side of the scale.
This time I'm going to start with the Hebrew. On to truth.
H571
אמת
'emeth
BDB Definition:
1) firmness, faithfulness, truth (noun feminine)
1a) sureness, reliability
1b) stability, continuance
1c) faithfulness, reliableness
1d) truth
1d1) as spoken
1d2) of testimony and judgment
1d3) of divine instruction
1d4) truth as a body of ethical or religious knowledge
1d5) true doctrine
2) in truth, truly (adverb)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: contracted from H539
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116k
And Strong's:
H571
אמת
'emeth
eh'-meth
Contracted from H539; stability; figuratively certainty, truth, trustworthiness: - assured (-ly), establishment, faithful, right, sure, true (-ly, -th), verity.
Then the Greek
G225
ἀλήθεια
alētheia
al-ay'-thi-a
From G227; truth: - true, X truly, truth, verity.
Now to the Dictionary. The common understanding. Atreu'
truth
Pronunciation:
\ˈtrüth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural truths Listen to the pronunciation of truths Listen to the pronunciation of truths \ˈtrüthz, ˈtrüths\
Etymology:
Middle English trewthe, from Old English trēowth fidelity; akin to Old English trēowe faithful — more at true
Date:
before 12th century
1 aarchaic : fidelity , constancy b: sincerity in action, character, and utterance2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b: a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true c: the body of true statements and propositions3 a: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality bchiefly British : true 2 c: fidelity to an original or to a standard4capitalized Christian Science : god
— in truth
: in accordance with fact : actually
Seek in spirit and in truth, speak in spirit and in truth, realize WHO is in your midst, meaning the middle of you, who bears all. He says, "No more, never will I eat of this food until it is full filled IN the Kingdom of my God" "The kingdom is inside of you" "In a building not made with hands"
Remember God is Living, not Dead, otherwise none of his words are true. See the light and that it is good, before a night comes in which no man can work, because no man knows that hour, not even the son of god, who is "in your midst"...the middle of you.
"You will go in and out no more, but shall have rest"
Peace
Hello. I just wanted to bring spirit and truth up for a refresher in regards to the many nice scriptures you put up.
Spirit as understood by the Greek writers therefore, the same understanding that the Hebrew should have.
[color=#336666]Spirit
G4151 pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from G4154;
a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a
spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental
disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's
spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590
Spirit as understood by the Hebrew, which is the same understanding that the Greek should have. You will notice how the Hebrew forgoes any mention of Demons, Angels or Divine Beings. Keep that in mind.
[color=#339999]
Spirit
H7307 ruwach roo'-akh
from H7306;
wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;
figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by
resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and
functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X
side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).
It is my personal opinion, that what is stated originally would be the truth, since that was what was intended and meant to be conveyed. I would go with the Hebrew understanding if I were trying to perform the standards of that which I am conforming to and becoming.
Now lets take a look at what the common English reader understands the word spirit to mean. Again, if we were dealing in Truth, the next word we will look over, all of the meanings would be one. Anyway, on to Merriam-Web Dictionary's definition, the one most commonly understood and identified with.
1spir·it
Pronunciation:
\ˈspir-ət\
Function:
noun - person, place or thing
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, espirit, spirit, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date:
13th century
1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2: a supernatural being or essence: as acapitalized : holy spirit b: soul 2a c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible ; specifically : ghost 2 d: a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated
4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person b: an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood
6 a: a special attitude or frame of mind b: the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something
7: a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9: a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness
10 a: distillate 1: as (1): the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash —often used in plural (2): any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) —often used in plural b: a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a: prevailing tone or tendency b: general intent or real meaning
12: an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance
13: enthusiastic loyalty 14capitalized Christian Science : god
Now I understand, that everyone probably has a different take on what spirit is, and they should, it's a personal experience that will truly define that for them.
On to truth, the other side of the scale.
This time I'm going to start with the Hebrew. On to truth.
H571
אמת
'emeth
BDB Definition:
1) firmness, faithfulness, truth (noun feminine)
1a) sureness, reliability
1b) stability, continuance
1c) faithfulness, reliableness
1d) truth
1d1) as spoken
1d2) of testimony and judgment
1d3) of divine instruction
1d4) truth as a body of ethical or religious knowledge
1d5) true doctrine
2) in truth, truly (adverb)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: contracted from H539
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116k
And Strong's:
H571
אמת
'emeth
eh'-meth
Contracted from H539; stability; figuratively certainty, truth, trustworthiness: - assured (-ly), establishment, faithful, right, sure, true (-ly, -th), verity.
Then the Greek
G225
ἀλήθεια
alētheia
al-ay'-thi-a
From G227; truth: - true, X truly, truth, verity.
Now to the Dictionary. The common understanding. Atreu'
truth
Pronunciation:
\ˈtrüth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural truths Listen to the pronunciation of truths Listen to the pronunciation of truths \ˈtrüthz, ˈtrüths\
Etymology:
Middle English trewthe, from Old English trēowth fidelity; akin to Old English trēowe faithful — more at true
Date:
before 12th century
1 aarchaic : fidelity , constancy b: sincerity in action, character, and utterance2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b: a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true c: the body of true statements and propositions3 a: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality bchiefly British : true 2 c: fidelity to an original or to a standard4capitalized Christian Science : god
— in truth
: in accordance with fact : actually
Seek in spirit and in truth, speak in spirit and in truth, realize WHO is in your midst, meaning the middle of you, who bears all. He says, "No more, never will I eat of this food until it is full filled IN the Kingdom of my God" "The kingdom is inside of you" "In a building not made with hands"
Remember God is Living, not Dead, otherwise none of his words are true. See the light and that it is good, before a night comes in which no man can work, because no man knows that hour, not even the son of god, who is "in your midst"...the middle of you.
"You will go in and out no more, but shall have rest"
Peace
reply to post by gYvMessanger
gYvMessanger, where did you get the interpretation that there will be two messiahs, and the first must die?
gYvMessanger, where did you get the interpretation that there will be two messiahs, and the first must die?
reply to post by badmedia
badmedia:
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I have been thinking about what you said "being born again" of the virgin. You said that Mary was not the virgin, the Father was. Am I right so far?
Anyway, I must tell you that I think I agree with you. That we are born again of the Father. It all makes sense to me and feels right with my spirit.
Thank you for you input
Peace to you,
Grandma
badmedia:
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I have been thinking about what you said "being born again" of the virgin. You said that Mary was not the virgin, the Father was. Am I right so far?
Anyway, I must tell you that I think I agree with you. That we are born again of the Father. It all makes sense to me and feels right with my spirit.
Thank you for you input
Peace to you,
Grandma
reply to post by Anonymous ATS
no, Yeshua is not YHVH. he is Elohim, but he is not YHVH. he controls everything except for YHVH... so hes high up there, a little higher creature than the angels, but not God.
in Yaakov it teaches (james) that man cannot be tempted. in mattityahu (mathew) and mark it teaches that Yeshua was tempted.
just know that although he is not YHVH, that does not mean he is not the mashiach. HE IS THE MASHICH>>> HE DID HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD and>>> HE WAS BORN OF MARY, BUT NOT YOSEF.
my views on this have changed trmendously, but herre you have it.
no, Yeshua is not YHVH. he is Elohim, but he is not YHVH. he controls everything except for YHVH... so hes high up there, a little higher creature than the angels, but not God.
in Yaakov it teaches (james) that man cannot be tempted. in mattityahu (mathew) and mark it teaches that Yeshua was tempted.
just know that although he is not YHVH, that does not mean he is not the mashiach. HE IS THE MASHICH>>> HE DID HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD and>>> HE WAS BORN OF MARY, BUT NOT YOSEF.
my views on this have changed trmendously, but herre you have it.
reply to post by gYvMessanger
DO YOU FORGET, my dear man, THAT HE SAID HE WAS COMING BACK. he is not done fulfilling th prophecies, especcially not the ones of mashiach ben david. you spent way to much time for an argument built on sand of the sea shore by simply ignoring a core christian doctrine.
DO YOU FORGET, my dear man, THAT HE SAID HE WAS COMING BACK. he is not done fulfilling th prophecies, especcially not the ones of mashiach ben david. you spent way to much time for an argument built on sand of the sea shore by simply ignoring a core christian doctrine.
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