Buddhist Conspiracy For World Perversion

Judaism has a problem with dealing with the microcosm, and the macrocosm? Really?

You musnt be talking to teh right 'qabbalists' than, and theyre certainly not Orthodox.

The very idea of a mitzvah, is a SPIITUAL command, with COSMIC meaning, in that it refers to some archetypal relationship with G-d. The action itself merges, and combines the spiritual reality with the physical representation of it. I dont think mysticism can get any deeper than that.This is a overlapping of the two.

Also, 'macrosmic' is simply achieved by ego negation. In Judaism, this is the point. Its the point, but paradoxically, Ego must also exist. We will always have some sense of self consciousnes, in that i am something other than you or G-d himself. I am me, but my "me" projects an undiluted quality of the creator, and unity of the source itself. That is what Judaism is abot, and its pretty similar to Eastern and Gnostic thought.

Originally posted by dontreally
The talmud says something that i absolutely love, and that is: When someone is coming to kill you, you go out and kill him first. Why? To protect your life. Your life is precious in the eyes of G-d.

The greater god teaches:
"Protect your own life and also protect that of your attacker."

Likewise, my signature says "showing mercy to the cruel, is showing cruelty to the merciful".

The greater god teaches:
"Teach the cruel to be merciful."

Rabbis are so bold as to create a story that states they defeated God in a debate. The problem that I can see is that they are too dense to understand, so God just gave up trying.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
Rabbis are so bold as to create a story that states they defeated God in a debate. The problem that I can see is that they are too dense to understand, so God just gave up trying.

You mean they're like the creationists in the evolution forum?

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by dontreally
The talmud says something that i absolutely love, and that is: When someone is coming to kill you, you go out and kill him first. Why? To protect your life. Your life is precious in the eyes of G-d.

The greater god teaches:
"Protect your own life and also protect that of your attacker."

Likewise, my signature says "showing mercy to the cruel, is showing cruelty to the merciful".

The greater god teaches:
"Teach the cruel to be merciful."

Teach the cruel to be merciful.?

By all means. Ill find a cruel person for you, and ill give you some time to 'teach him to be merciful'.

Heres an experiment. Take an ignorant person off the street. One of those people who goes clubbing and watches alot of Tv. Now, try to convince him that the entire culture hes immersed in is a lie, and a form of mind control.

Do you think he will respond to your efforts? Do you think the emotional contents which command his consciousness, will be easily moved by your logic and reason?

No. They will deny and deny and deny. Egotism does that.

Likewise. One who acts cruelly is by nature, a cruel person. His entire personal unconscious is filled with forms, or 'spirits' of that nature. It pleases him to be cruel. Conversely, being compassionate is irritating and weak in his eyes. You cannot force, or "teach" a cruel person to be kind. Therefore, you leave it to G-d to teach this person, in the next world; not in this one, where he can have his opportunity to commit evil and hurt others.

It is great wisdom, that Talmudic statement. Punishing the wicked is honoring G-d. It honors JUSTICE. If you cared about justice, you would understand how that is. If we didnt punish the guilty, the cruel and compassionless, what kind of message would be sending? You can be evil, and you can get away with it. That is the ultimate injustice.

How can you disagree with this? Its logic

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by dontreally
The talmud says something that i absolutely love, and that is: When someone is coming to kill you, you go out and kill him first. Why? To protect your life. Your life is precious in the eyes of G-d.

The greater god teaches:
"Protect your own life and also protect that of your attacker."

Likewise, my signature says "showing mercy to the cruel, is showing cruelty to the merciful".

The greater god teaches:
"Teach the cruel to be merciful."

Teach the cruel to be merciful.?

By all means. Ill find a cruel person for you, and ill give you some time to 'teach him to be merciful'.

Great.
- because I believe in aiming for the best possible outcome.

I taught my father, who hated women and believed in either "conquering" or bashing them, and who used to knock me unconscious every other week, to respect women and treat them with kindness.


I taught a violent school teacher, who injured my son by throwing him across the room, to acknowledge the grief and pain driving his cruelty, and he became a great teacher who gained a reputation for his kindness and patience. Part of the deal I made with him, after personally counseling him until he was in tears and told what had happened honestly, was that he admit his misconduct to the principal and attend long-term behaviour counseling with a qualified therapist.

What do you think was better for the world, a bad teacher kicked out of teaching, which I could easily have made happen, or the "creation" of a great teacher who was an inspiration and example to the kids?
What do you think was better for my son, to experience the revenge of seeing his teacher sacked, or to have his teacher sincerely apologise and then demonstrate that a person can control and change their behaviour?


I brought a schoolkid who had been continually bullying and attacking my young daughter into my house, treated him with respect, and fed him milk shakes and cake, and talked to him and listened to him.
For all the years they attended the same schools, he became my daughter's protector and never bullied anyone again. He also learned to stand up to his violent parents and find ways to prevent them continually belting and abusing him.


I sat opposite a man who was sitting all alone on a train one night, who had frightened all the other passengers downto the far end of the carriage by waving a mallet over his head and screaming out that he would kill them all.
By the end of the journey he'd put away his mallet and was sobbing on my shoulder.


So yes, I try to help people change, and often it works.

Of course sometimes it doesn't, but there is nothing to celebrate if the situation is so bad that the lesser of two evils requires violence. When a person who is doing evil dies rather than learns and changes, that is a tragic loss to this world.

If someone is coming to kill you, are you in a situation to 'protect your enemy"?

Do you really think their going to stop in their rage, and reason with you? No. that is one of those situations where you unfortunately have to kill those who Came to kill you. That is logic, and normal. And theres something seriously wrong with your reasoning abilities if you took that attitude you have with someone who came to kill you. You would probably be killed in that case. He has one thing on his mind. I want you dead.

The real funny thing is, even though Jesus taught love thy enemy, thats an immensely impractical piece of advice in an evil world. And even deeper, its gnosticism, which has little to do with real life scenarios, of a person who wants to take your life.

The Talmud, in tractate pirkei Avot, also talks about placating and seeking peace before resorting to war. Of course this is the first route to take. But with the cruel? The cruel cannot be propitiated. They have a different attitude, uprbring, and view of the world. The cruel often justify their cruelty logically, as being ok. What on G-ds earth are you thinking that such people can be propitiated. Especially in a situation where your very life is at stake?

So, yes, you should seek to speak with a person first. But if its a situation of where you know someones coming to kill you, you better prepare yourself to kill him first. That is simple logic.

That example i gave was releavant because someone who doesnt think the way you do, is comfortable, and also egostically driven by whatever ideology, or lifestyle he leads. You are not G-d. Only G-d can break another persons ego; often unfortunately through sufferring. Hence the command to punish the cruel. Our responsibility is this world. We perform G-ds will in this world by quite logically protecting the innocent from the evil and cruel. To leave them be, is to give them license to commit injustice. When they die, theyre in G-ds hand, and he will deal with their spiritual issues.

So, while i think your intentions are noble, theyre also illogical, and self defeating. I have no problem in the real world, with seeking to make peace with an enemy. This is also a Talmudic decree, in pirkei Avot. Peace is the most precious thing in the eyes of G-d. But this refers to a different enemy, in the sense that he doesnt like you. Not in the sense where hes plotting to kill you. Such an enemy who has enough of a disdain for you that he is willing to take your life, is a very serious enemy, and unfortunately, you have to be a man, and protect yourself, and your loved ones.

Originally posted by dontreally
Heres an experiment. Take an ignorant person off the street. One of those people who goes clubbing and watches alot of Tv. Now, try to convince him that the entire culture hes immersed in is a lie, and a form of mind control.

Do you think he will respond to your efforts? Do you think the emotional contents which command his consciousness, will be easily moved by your logic and reason?

No. They will deny and deny and deny. Egotism does that.

Likewise. One who acts cruelly is by nature, a cruel person. His entire personal unconscious is filled with forms, or 'spirits' of that nature. It pleases him to be cruel. Conversely, being compassionate is irritating and weak in his eyes. You cannot force, or "teach" a cruel person to be kind. Therefore, you leave it to G-d to teach this person, in the next world; not in this one, where he can have his opportunity to commit evil and hurt others.

It is great wisdom, that Talmudic statement. Punishing the wicked is honoring G-d. It honors JUSTICE. If you cared about justice, you would understand how that is. If we didnt punish the guilty, the cruel and compassionless, what kind of message would be sending? You can be evil, and you can get away with it. That is the ultimate injustice.

How can you disagree with this? Its logic

edit on 6-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

And where does your logic come from? Experience or hypothetical thought gained from others? This very example you used could be one of my friends, in fact it could be me, and I assure you change is possible. One does 'cruel' and unjust things because of his conditioning from society and his environment in which he was raised, not because he is inheritantly an evil person by way of spirit. That is not only ignorant to say but it also shows a real lack of compassion and wisdom. Not only can I assure you that I myself have went from someone you may have considered 'cruel' or ignorant into someone who has devoted their entire life to helping others and being morally responsible, but I can assure you many of my friends and young men I work with have as well. All it takes is a single moment of clarity into what you described as our entire culture being a 'lie', and then have someone who has compassion and understanding for your faults, offer you their help and respect. Time and time again I have seen former gangbangers and drugdealers have this happen to them. In fact, many times these people turn out to be the greatest contributors to our society because they understand a much broader spectrum of life than say a person raised solely in a righteous and privilaged environment.

Your theory of moral and social justice has been implemented throughout the history of mankind, and nothing has changed, wars and murder is still prevalent amongst our world. 8000 wars have been waged throughout the history of man, most in the name of peace, many in the name of religion seeking that peace, and nothing has changed. Divisions have grown stronger, ignorance and hatred has become more wide spread. I say it is time to try something new, that being compassion and understanding.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

not because he is inheritantly an evil person by way of spirit.

I never meant it as being something inherent in his being. Look at it as this. When i do something, i condition and habituate myself to that behavior. Therefore, unconsciously, a corresponding abstract (i called it spiritual) form is created. Depth psychology calls this an emotional content. Whatever term you use, it has numinosity, and it exerts a certain force over the personality. Each of us is made up of such forms, and they form the basis of who we are as people. This is why Judaism puts such an emphasis on Action - whether in Action, in Speech, or in thought. Each level is its own degree of action, and serves as a 'garment' for the soul.

So what one does, it essentially an expression of who one is, spiritually. This does not imply that that person cannot change. Not at all. The whole basis of Judaism is Teshuva - Return to G-d. At any moment, one can achieve claity, and his soul can shine through - even despite the many layers of shells which hide this brilliance.

But nonethless, those shells still exist. A person who is convinced that this world is completely fine, and that people who think 9/11 was an inside job are conspiracy weirdos, are not easily convinced, at all. trust me. I was at another board filled with people like this (you can go and test it for yourself. The site is calld MMTO. Its popular amongst the toronto youth - club goers. Highschoolers, university students, basically people from 16 -30) and it is just simply impossible. Its not up to me to change people. Ive tried. Its another statement of the Rabbinic Sages not to try in Vain. Basically, if someone shows a proclivity or an ability to appreciate something, than you can broach what it is you want to say with them. But if you know it'll only end up in an argument, its vain to pursue that course. Its pointless and it'll only make the situation worse.

There are differing types of people. When i say "cruel" i mean evil, corrupt people. People who have done evil things, and who are completely desensitized to the truth and beauty of righteousness, kindness and love. They are so far from this attitude that you could very well say they hate it. Such people exist. Everywhere. Theyre in the government, military, in prisons. They can be a mean asshole you may work with who if you tried to 'speak kindly' with him, would only mock you. These people exist, and kindness to them is actually pointless, and infact depreciates the good you mean to show them.

There are also people who are good, but have very negative traits. People like this i wouldnt call cruel. They may sometimes do cruel things, but they are not cruel by nature (in that, ideologically, they do not consciously revel in being cruel). Such people you CAN reason with and talk to. And indeed, you should. This is about teshuva, and Judaism believes all people, no matter what they have done, can return. That does not necessarily mean that you should approach all people with this attitude. That is presumptuous and dangerous. And if you care for your own wellbeing, you should take caution.

The statement in the Talmud that "one who comes to kill you, you go and kill him first" is just plain logic. I dont care who you are. Every normal human being acknowledges this as a normal response. Theres a reason why, lifeisenergy, why for 8000 years people have never thought differently. Cause if someone actually means to come and kill, youre perhaps crazier than he is to respond to his belligerence with love. It doesnt work. It wont ever work. Only in fairy tales, and make believe land, does a raging psychopath filled with hate and malice, respond to a hug or "calm down, lets have a philosophical discussion". I cannot understand how you or anyone could reject this solid piece of advice. Maybe because its Jewish?

As for the Jewish maxim. " showing mercy to the cruel is being cruel to the merciful". I think that also is 100% true and justified.

You and christians like you have this 'only love is good' attitude. If theres anything that the Jews and Muslims agree upon, its Fear. All things are based on either love and fear. Whats so important about fear? Well, fear helps one be careful. Fear also promote humility. When one is cautious that G-d is his source of being, he wants to do his will, and ONLY his will - that is, not confuse his own will for G-ds will. When one thinks this way, he builds a boundary. Earlier, i related fear to the abstract concept of limitation and contraction, in contrast to expansion. Limitation is an ingrdient of creation. Its the Yin, to the expansion of Yang. Love is a product of the right and expansion, while fear is a product of the Left, and contraction. Life is about a balance of these two forces. These two forces are necessary in creation, to create a finite reality, and also to provide bounty, good, and prosperity within a finite context.

So, showing love to those who dont deserve love, who havent sacrificed their egos and who havent made any effort at all to deserve kindness (and im referring to only the most evil and malicious of people) mock the very kindness you show them. Its not right, and its not befitting, that G-d, and the Truth of Good, be degraded and mocked in that manner. By punishing such people youre expressing G-ds attribute of Gevurah - which is what fear derives from. This is a holy and proper use of the severe function in creation, and on the contrary, those who show kindness to evil, cruel people, are really approving and condoning the very evil ways they pursue.

reply to post by dontreally


No, you look at it this way! This is not some belief which I aquired from reading a book, or from some religious jargon, or from some internet forum, this is my REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE! You can spend as much time as you want reading religious books and writing on internet forums about how you KNOW what is right, I have witnessed this for my own eyes growing up in urban cities where people are dying and suffering daily! Those are my friends and family! So stand on your religious high horse and preach down to us about those 'evil-doers' but you are living in a fantasy world, You are living in nothing but delusion and fear! I refuse to sit around condemning others and claim righteousness over them, when I am them, when we are them, when they are us. I refuse to build walls and live my life out in fear so I can cherish my self-loathings. I refuse to promote or support any war that results in the death or defranchisement of any human! That in itself is a Nihilistic view of life, and it shows a serious lack of compassion and wisdom to your fellow species. And I am not a Christian, or any other thing you wish to label me as, get that right!

I'm through arguing with you!

1) Defending yourself when someone comes to kill you is wrong. Is INSANE. Good effing luck. If i could i would bring a few death row prisoners and give you a crack at 'converting' them to your belief. Just as you rage against my beliefs, so to will they be just as obdurate, or even moreso, with yours.. Thanks for proving my point. People are stubborn, and egotistical. . Now if reasonable people, like you and me can knock heads, imagine a cruel, evil, compassionless person.

I dont even know why im asking this. I think you would consider such a person as not having a problem at all.

Or are you saying punishing evil people, who have committed offences against other creatures, is wrong?

What a special idea. Seriously. That is special. When the messianic era comes, and i hope and pray it comes soon, people like you are going to have correct that belief. This nihilism, and existentialism, and regarding evil as normal, and good, and evil as contributing something, or as not something to be desired, is simply stunning.

Atleast Judaism defends itself with logic. Whats the logic behind this? Im being self righteous? So insuring that this world is free of evil people, and thus protecting the innocent, is evil to you? What kind of demented, screwed up logic is that? That is just FRIGHTENING.

Its people with YOUR attitude who the Jews have been fighting against. Its that nihilism, and that 'the end justifies the means' attitude, which the elites use. And no. Even if G-d came down from Heaven and told you guys to serve him, you would have the pagan arrogance to give him the middfle finger, and tell him to "screw off" "we will not Serve you. We will serve the MOTHER! PURE PAGAN earth which gives US all we desire!!!!!"

Hence in the movie Avatar, they permute the holy name of G-d, YHWH as HWYH - Eywa. Thats how its pronounced, and thats what it means. Its a feminine permutation, which actually corresponds to the sign of Aquarius. You are like those people, and im sure you take much pride in that.

I also take it youre a fan of theosophy, and Djhwal Khul - the "great" tibetan teacher of alice bailey.....

Bailey herself said "death is great cure". Im sure you agree with her. Yes. Judaism, which seeks to make things equal, not in a assimilative way, by making everyone the same - no, other cultures, peoples and traditions will exist. But ensuring that we all govern ourselves and our animal natures. THAT is the point of life. Not what pagans say. Our point is to know G-d - both muslims, Jews, and Christians get this, and to raise the physical, coarse animal nature, up to the divine, spiritual realm. Maybe in such a world, your buddhist, taoist, hindu, gnostic beliefs are completely disproved, and that means the end of those philosophical systems. No, it shouldnt. You still have respectable and lovely cultures. Things that are worth saving. Just get the fact that we are created creatures. And the only way for the divine - the infinite, and incomprhensible, to become manifest in human life, is through following his will - a moral obligation. Follow g-ds will, and the Keter - His wil, becomes revealed in Malkhut - this world.

That is perfectly good and fine.

Shalom.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by dontreally

 

No, you look at it this way! This is not some belief which I aquired from reading a book, or from some religious jargon, or from some internet forum, this is my REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE! You can spend as much time as you want reading religious books and writing on internet forums about how you KNOW what is right, I have witnessed this for my own eyes growing up in urban cities where people are dying and suffering daily! Those are my friends and family! So stand on your religious high horse and preach down to us about those 'evil-doers' but you are living in a fantasy world, You are living in nothing but delusion and fear! I refuse to sit around condemning others and claim righteousness over them, when I am them, when we are them, when they are us. I refuse to build walls and live my life out in fear so I can cherish my self-loathings. I refuse to promote or support any war that results in the death or defranchisement of any human! That in itself is a Nihilistic view of life, and it shows a serious lack of compassion and wisdom to your fellow species. And I am not a Christian, or any other thing you wish to label me as, get that right!

I'm through arguing with you!

It looks like you and I have really upset him.

He doesn't want to see that people can change, or that even cruel people can have goodness inside.

One day he might even see that his own self-righteous, executioner attitude is just blindness and cruelty, and might change himself.

I've learned that each person has a hidden perfect being inside, and if you can love them enough to communicate with that inner being, it strengthens the inner being so it can grow. Then they have the choice of changing, and many do.

OP, your thread is, without question, the dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

Really.

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by dontreally

 

No, you look at it this way! This is not some belief which I aquired from reading a book, or from some religious jargon, or from some internet forum, this is my REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE! You can spend as much time as you want reading religious books and writing on internet forums about how you KNOW what is right, I have witnessed this for my own eyes growing up in urban cities where people are dying and suffering daily! Those are my friends and family! So stand on your religious high horse and preach down to us about those 'evil-doers' but you are living in a fantasy world, You are living in nothing but delusion and fear! I refuse to sit around condemning others and claim righteousness over them, when I am them, when we are them, when they are us. I refuse to build walls and live my life out in fear so I can cherish my self-loathings. I refuse to promote or support any war that results in the death or defranchisement of any human! That in itself is a Nihilistic view of life, and it shows a serious lack of compassion and wisdom to your fellow species. And I am not a Christian, or any other thing you wish to label me as, get that right!

I'm through arguing with you!

It looks like you and I have really upset him.

He doesn't want to see that people can change, or that even cruel people can have goodness inside.

One day he might even see that his own self-righteous, executioner attitude is just blindness and cruelty, and might change himself.

I've learned that each person has a hidden perfect being inside, and if you can love them enough to communicate with that inner being, it strengthens the inner being so it can grow. Then they have the choice of changing, and many do.

Yes. clearly i was the one who got upset.

I like the way the two of you conduct yourselves in an argument.

In Judaism, this sort of 'ganging up' in conversation is looked down upon, and it should be. Especially when the two other parties are knowingly trying to mock, and demean him.

I never said once, that i didnt have a love for people. And i had said plenty of times in earlier posts that Love is the most important thing there is. In Kabbalah, Echad - One, has the same gematria as Ahava - love. Love is the feeling of oneness.

Love is why G-d created the world.

To describe me as having " an executioner attitude" is insulting and a complete distortion of what i believe, and how i have tried to convey my beliefs.

With normal, decent people, you approach them with love. In only one situation did i say Killing others is ok. And thats when theyre coming to kill you. I made comment about that awhile back, and you buddhist 'peace lovers with no ego' have pounced on me like rabid dogs. Thats a NORMAL response whether you realize it or not. I hope youre never put in a situation where you have to defend yourself, by killing the other party; its either you or him. And if you appreciate this goft of life, you will protect yourself against the aggressor, and the one who deserves to be killed, for wanting to take your life, unjustly. This is a normal cause and effect relationship. You know, what you do comes back to you? If youre seeking someone elses life, its only right that they be the one to take you out. They had nothing against you, and ONLY desired peace.

There are simply too many reasons, and too many iterations of this truth for me to elucidate. Its true, and if you cant see that, than you should follow the advice of Jesus "Get the Plank Out of Your Eye Before You Want to Help Another With His Speck"..

And as for Fear. Read up on Kabbalah.

Why should everything be ok? Why does Fear, which implies restriction of thought behavior and speech, have to be a bad thing?

The kabbalists relate this to a work of Art. For a piece of art to exist, and become manifest on a physical parchment, the artist first had to contract his magnifient vision. He has to limit, and indeed only take a part of what he percieves spiritually, to make that art a reality.

Likewise, we Human beings have complete freedom of expression. G-d asks us that we limit, and contract our will, to only certain behaviors and actions which are in line with the 7 laws of Noah(the 7 colors of the rainbow allude to these laws - noah made a covenant with g-d, and the rainbow stood as a sign for it).

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, namely adultery, certain types of incest, anal sex between men and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Do not punish by these lessons

Each law is related to one of the 7 lower sefirot. Each is the restriction, and contraction needed to bring about the rectified spiritual reality which exists up above, down below.

1) Anytime you act in anyway which contradicts the unity of G-d - the fact that G-d is completely one, in this world and the higher ones, by placing in front of yuor consciousness an intermediary - which in reality means any achetypal power, or any power in general, which you percieve as having power; when you attribute anything to anything other than the one G-d, youre guilty of idolatry. This a completely proper, and righteous attitude, that i know many buddhists, Native americans (i know this for sure, since im in correspondence with 2 cherokee indians in oklahoma who acknowledge the truth of the Torah, and the rabbinic tradition) etc. that refuse to look at the world other in a way of complete unity. G-d is one, and he is truly the source of everything. It is only right, and proper, that we honor this understanding, instead of creating a counterfeit philosophy which says g-d manifests equally in all areas, and it makes no difference whether we consciously act this way or not. That is sheer laziness. I dont care what anyone says. When you do that, you do it cause its comfortasble, and convenient. Whereas the former forces you to make your will as his. Its demoting you from a demigod, as buddhists see themselves, to a child of G-d. Just like any child, he has to obey the will of his father. We are children. And we can only be considered "grown" by followng our fathers will, and than through this become realized in a holy (separate) context. The idea above all is to not allow oneself to be offset by limitation, which paradoxically, is how we achieve the infinite.

If you dont agree with me, thats fine. Im interested in diologue, not demonization. There is nothing evil, or immoral about Jewish philosophy. Most normal people are impressed, and inspired by the simple joy of serving G-d in this way. Its a true transformation of self. From a natural person, born into the context of this world, to tranform himself and realize himself as a refined reflection of his divine source. Unlike animals, our job doesnt come naturally to us. We have understanding and knowledge of the divine. They do not. Each kingdom of creation is defined by its own strengths. Animals have no self consciousness (that is, consciousness of themselves being a separate being, as opposed to just acting, unconsciously). We do. We know we exist. We know and can reflect on that fact. We can reflect on our actions, which is a natural response for us. Thus, the natural approach to spirituality, for human beings, should be in dualistic; discerning one thing from another. But not duality for the sake of dualism. No. A duality for the sake of the soul - which is the root and source of ones being. One is involved in bring heaven down to earth.

Look at a dog when youre thinking about something philosophical, and theyll tilt their head in confusion. Its a beautiful sign. Dogs are beautiful creatures, at THEIR level. Humans are completely different, and were exhorted in the torah to "rule the animals", that is, not succumb to their nature, but show our own infinite ability to change, and transform ourselves. The idea of Judaism ultimately is to change the physical, and natural, and have it accept and recieve the light of the infinite. This can only happen when we, being created in the divine form, make this happen by subjugating our own animal natures, to the will and reality of the soul. The soul thus uses the body as a Rider its horse. The Vehicle serves the will of he who controls it. Thats how it should be.

As for not showing mercy to the cruel. G-d created the world with judgement, and mercy. Those who perform their purpose in this world with honesty, and integrity, and sincerely tries to do good. Why should a person such as this be punished? They shouldnt be. They deserve mercy and G-d commands that we show mercy to such worthy and meritorious people. But habitual criminals. People with no moral standard at all? G-d forbid the situation arrive, because i wouldnt want to kill anyone, but their evil testifies against them. The works of their hands speak against what theyve done to others. And this person SHOULDNT be punished? I dont mean cutting hands off, btw. That is wrong. I mean death penalty for murderers, rapists, child molestors, habitual thieves, and other people who routinely spurn the law of heaven.

Either way, dont Easterners believe in Karma? IS that not a law of justive? Thus, is there not a intelligence or force, dispensing such justice?

I would please ask that yuo forgive my earlier language or tone. Im trying to be civil, and honestly just to have a conversation about these differing views. So, please cool it with the smack talk - and i will too. And show the mercy you claim to see in all people.

Originally posted by dontreally

If you dont agree with me, thats fine. Im interested in diologue, not demonization. There is nothing evil, or immoral about Jewish philosophy.

You say you are only interested in dialogue but then you go on the attack again. I will now post some things that are immoral in Jewish philosophy and law. These are only some of the items.

1. Gentiles are likened to animals
2. A Gentile is not considered a 'neighbor'
3. Jews are allowed to hate Gentiles.
4. Jews should curse a Gentiles grave.
5. Jews are allowed to defraud a Gentile.
6. A Jew who injures a Gentile is not liable for damages, but a Gentile who hurts a Jew can be put to death.
www.come-and-hear.com...

This is only a very small listing of many things that are immoral and some would say evil in Jewish law and philosophy. And yes, Jewish law also allows sex with children. We can work through the whole Torah and Talmud and I will list many more things that are immoral if you wish.

reply to post by BillfromCovina

Credit where credit is due, though.

A Jew is permitted to save the life of a gentile on the Sabbath if it's done in the course of saving the life of a Jew.

- And the race did produce Jesus. That says something for them.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina

Originally posted by dontreally

If you dont agree with me, thats fine. Im interested in diologue, not demonization. There is nothing evil, or immoral about Jewish philosophy.

You say you are only interested in dialogue but then you go on the attack again. I will now post some things that are immoral in Jewish philosophy and law. These are only some of the items.

1. Gentiles are likened to animals
2. A Gentile is not considered a 'neighbor'
3. Jews are allowed to hate Gentiles.
4. Jews should curse a Gentiles grave.
5. Jews are allowed to defraud a Gentile.
6. A Jew who injures a Gentile is not liable for damages, but a Gentile who hurts a Jew can be put to death.
www.come-and-hear.com...

This is only a very small listing of many things that are immoral and some would say evil in Jewish law and philosophy. And yes, Jewish law also allows sex with children. We can work through the whole Torah and Talmud and I will list many more things that are immoral if you wish.

Why.. cause you read an english book on the subject?

The Talmud is 70 volumes. It is written in Aramaic. It is long, and incredibly abstrus at times.

The format of the Talmud is written as give and take between the sages. It begins usually like this. A false statement is made, which id disproved by the subsequent conversation. This is the point of its dialctic; to correct assumption and perceptions in logic.

There are also many kabbalisitc and mystical allusions that those who arent aware of the theology, wont understand. For instance, the Talmud refers to Goy as animals. And yet in other places in the Talmud (since youre such a buff, you would know this) gentiles are called bnei Adam - children of Adam. That is obviously an allusion to them being human beings, no?. In other areas gentiles are called HaAdam. Adam is the quintessential Hebrew word for Man. Theres also Ish, Gever, Enosh. But Adam means a spiritual being. ADaM by itself, refers to one man. The Jews alone are called ADaM. What the Talmud means by this, is that Jewish people are one spiritual whole. That is, theres solidarity and connection between each of them, unlike with the other cultures of the world.

Indeed, if there wasnt so much fighting and contention, all of us could be called "ADaM". Simple, singular. One spiritual being with one collective consciousness. But when theres separation, men are not called ADaM, but HaADaM (hence why gentiles are called this in the Talmud. Of course those antisemitic websites wont list these other instances which disprove their theoriers that Jews consider gentiles animals - which is completely untrue) or BNei ADaM (children of Adam)

Thats how this subject is explained, exegetically. If it doesnt satisfy you, im sorry. Thats how Talmudic students learn it.

As for all those other calumnies.. Simply read the Pirkei Avot - ethics of the fathers, which has many references to how Jews should conduct themselves with gentiles. Everything you said is contradicted in that tractate. Also read the Shulchan Aruch. Again, Gentiles are people, and humans, and Jews do not consider them like animals, or god forbid mistreat any of them. Does the Torah not say, the resident alien must be treated like any other citizen? In other words, they may not be Jewish, but their granted the same G-d given human rights that all human beings have equally. So no. Nothing youve written is true, and all of it is a fabrication and smear.

And as for the animal reference itself. An animal is limited by its natural feelings. Were each born with an ego. Those who dont learn to overcome, and rise above their ego, are termed animals in the Talmud. Because there is so much fighting and aggression in the non Jewish world, thats whats meant by their being called "animals". Yes, it could be a little offensive. Remember, the Rabbis were living in Roman occupied lands. These people were Barbarians and if they wanted something, they took it, no questions asked. They had no sense of morality, and the morality they did had benefitted them in some ways. The Talmud does not refer to RIGHTEOUS gentiles as animals, only unrighteous gentiles; and that btw applies equally to the secular Jews of today, who are simply no different from the gentiles they live amongst.

reply to post by dontreally

You seem to postulate that in these modern times we can not go to the original sources and have a correct English translation. That in the over 2000 years of discussions by rabbis in various languages, one can never know what they are talking about. This is a lie. Do you still maintain that you are not a Jew or will you admit that you are?

What I posted about Judaism was not the questions in their discussions but their conclusions. As you know Jews are not required to follow the Kabbala or its various philosophies.

I will now pick out one topic and lets see if you can stick to it without trying to confuse the issue. I will also compare it to Buddhism. If you do not like my translation, please offer an alternative mainstream translation that is accepted by Jewish scholars.

Let us start with the most controversial. Human sacrifice to the Jewish God and other gods is accepted according to the Talmud and Old Testament and was once widespread. Yes children were sacrificed. Buddhism views all killing as wrong and is against killing for gods.

In Judges 11:30-40, Jephthah makes a vow unto the Lord to make a sacrifice if he is given victory over the Ammonites. He vows to sacrifice as a burnt offering the first thing that greets him from his house. The Lord knows his vow. After his victory his only daughter greets him first. He is upset that his daughter is the first, but his daughter seems to have no problem accepting. It appears he planned to sacrifice one of the servants and it sounds like it was common practice. She is allowed to prepare and Jephthah follows through. God does not stop it.

In 2 Samuel 21:1-11, David is told by the Lord to satisfy the Gibeonites request in order to stop a famine. The request was for a human sacrifice at the beginning of the harvest season. David follows through.

In Leviticus 18:21 there is a prohibition on allowing ones seed to pass through the fires of Molech. Here is how the Talmud interprets this.

MISHNAH. HE WHO GIVES OF HIS SEED TO MOLECH INCURS NO PUNISHMENT UNLESS HE DELIVERS IT TO MOLECH AND CAUSES IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE. IF HE GAVE IT TO MOLECH BUT DID NOT CAUSE IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE, OR THE REVERSE, HE INCURS NO PENALTY, UNLESS HE DOES BOTH.

Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64a
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 437

There is no prohibition on human sacrifice. It does not prohibit Molech worship or sacrifice to Molech or other Gods. As long as the Jewish god is put first it is allowed. Burnt offerings to Molech would be allowed if it were not from your seed. Seed meant living offspring. If you killed your seed first, you incur no penalty. Living Gentile burnt offerings are allowed.

In your discussion please answer why this English translation is wrong. Again this is from the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64a.

When we are done discussing human sacrifice I am willing to discuss how Judaism justifies sex with children and babies.

ok whatever you say billfromcovina...

Im a non Jew. If you want the precise term for what i am = Bnei Noach

I am a non Jew, who studied various religons, Judaism impressed me, for its morality, simplicity as well as depth, so ive decided to accept upon myself the "yoke" of Torah. The talmud explains the role of the non Jew - myself, and it is essentially the 10 commandments more or less squeezed into 7 commandments, which parallel the 7 colors of the rainbow. The Covenentant G-d made with Noach was a 'rainbow'. This is what it entailed. There were terms to the actual covenenant, other than a rainbow. This is a case of 'as above so below' idea. Every 'thing' has a spiritual, conceptual parallel in the 'heavens' or, the psyche.

You can go on believing what you do.

Can i ask you where you have read all these things?

What sites, books? Is this something you picked up from Texe Marrs?