A Gnostic Plot to kill God in 2012? (Armageddon?)

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


Wow, quite a shot there. I find it funny that you obviously know nothing about Gnostics or our teachings yet you still find it okay to insult us. We don't claim to have any "special" knowledge, at least no more then any other Christian has. Jesus gave wisdom for anyone that wants it. It is there. It is in your Bible and the Nag Hammadi texts.

How do you propose that Gnostics would be able to "destroy" God anyway?

you can download the book for free (and/or donate to the author) at this website

if this book interests you then also read the book flicker by theodore roszak which though slow to get going, is a much better book with a similar theme & and also mentions 2012 as the year they plan to... well, you'll have to read it to find out

Oh wow. You do all know that Dan Brown writes FICTION right? If all of your ideas about Gnostisism are based on his books than I am wasting my time here.

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
Yeah, gnostic teachings are kinda funny, the old texts claim to be written by men in Jesus company (like the book of Thomas) but when examined they fail to resonate the truths in the bible, of which they (the early Gnostics) claim to expound upon. So, yes, they do want to destroy God, and glorify themselves with their own special "insights", thus distracting from the truth's that are already distorted enough in the bible by perverted translations with intent to convey specific non canon teachings. Like the trinity. Back to point, Gnostics do want to destroy God, and the start of that is the perversion of the identity of God. To claim Satan is just a misunderstood feller is a bold face lie. But the trick is, to tell you things about the bible, that aren't in the bible, and blind you with outrageous ideas, like, you don't need God, just listen to me and I can give you insight better than God.
So yes, Gnostics, want to destroy the God of the Bible (which, is the same God, OT and NT) and gain glory for themselves. Obviously, not born of love. That's why Paul had to warn Timothy to turn away “from the contradictions of the falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1 Timothy 6:20, 21)
I am not afraid to quote Paul either, as I have noticed a strong belief being purportrated to discredit him as a true disciple, implications that he was attempting to glorify himself...he was imperfect, but his ultimate goal was to keep the congregations free of exactly the things discussed here. And his teachings fall in line with the theme of the bible, and don't add to them. But that's somebody elses battle!

Yes, Gnostics want to destroy God , but it is just a want, the best they are able to do is distract, deceive, and claim higher insight than anyone else...

Gnostics believe that wisdom can be gained through a lifestyle of humbleness and seeking with a pure heart. The Gnostic text point out that the Most High Supreme One is not of the same nature of the God in the OT. If you learn the story of Sophia (wisdom, some call her the holy spirit) and her emanation of Yalbadoath (ruler of this world who thinks he is God of all and NOT just of this world)....then you can reread the OT and see where the nurturing Holy Spirit and the emanation of the ruler are more or less in conflict with eachother. The Holy Spirit (Sophia/Wisdom) was the FIRST to offer herself/theeself for the purpose of mankind. All other tales of a offering for God go back to this one belief....that something has been lost and needs to be reunited with God.

You have no more proof that the God of the OT was the True Infinite Creator then I have that he was not. I could say, since you believe in the God of the OT that YOU are the one following a false nature just the same....it makes neither one a proof of anything....but the nature I seek for and feel in my soul is not of the nature of the ruler in the OT.

One must seek all beliefs to find the core of them all, which is the same. A reuniting of a separation...a bride and groom that needs to reunite, a matter and spirit nature in conflict.

Just adding thoughts
LV

reply to post by Blue_Sargasso



If you believe you live in hell then you will live in hell, I'd say to them. Myself, I'm havin' a blast in here. Gnostics stop God like ants stop cars on the highway.

Ok, I was being a little brash and full of myself, here are some of my assumptions upon which I base my opinions on...
Do Gnostics believe that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god?
My bible does not teach that.
Also, I have read something like Gnostics teach the world is not perfect, a perfect God could not have created the world.
Again, my bible does not say that.
And obviosly putting my faith (which creates my opinion, which is all this is) in the Bible, it tells me that it is all I need...and since it has gone under so many transitions like the KJV just searching for the truth in it alone is sufficient.
That all said, in my terms Gnostics want to destroy God, and try to, by distorting who he is...
But I aslo did qualify that with the statement, "they will TRY"

Yes the things you posted are correct. I am Gnostic and I am not out to destroy God. The God you worship and the one I do are the same. Gnostics do not believe in blind faith, which is one of the major differences between Christians and us. We take the Bible, as well as the Nag Hammadi texts with a grain of salt.

I started to research, and was gonna post ya a bunch of scriptures, but that's not the point of this thread...I guess to stay on topic, i will restate my intent, it is my opinion that Gnostics want to kill the God of the Bible, by undermining his persona, and claiming He is not what He is claimed to be in the Bible, by adding "insight", and teachings not in the Bible then it could be said their goal would be to Kill God, the God in the Bible, and replace Him with their own teachings. I just went to this website www.gnosticteachings.org... and on the mainpage I notice things like..."Discover Gnosis...the ancient source of all religions and mystical traditions." and "In the Gnostic tradition, we seek to examine the practical utilization of all religious, mythological symbols, in order for us to harness the very purpose of those symbols and aid us in our own development"
Uh, as a believer in the God of the Bible, those are obvious terms to me, of things said not to do....as you are obviosly familiar with the Bible I am sure you would agree.

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


Its best to study straight from the material...dont you agree....here is a link to the Nag Hammadi.

www.thenazareneway.com...

This link came from a site called The Nazarene Way...Ill post it for others just because I think it has alot of great stuff on it.

www.thenazareneway.com...


There are also other text that circulate through certain different sects of gnostic...just as thought there are different sects of Abraham religions or Jesus based religions...ect.

I do not follow any one book, and its likely I interpret the Bible different then most.

Does one just say...because its in the Bible without thinking there may be truths in many other religions through symbolism's, similar stories, similar parallel connections between people, their meanings, places and their meanings, the repetitiveness of the same dates being used as different Holiday over and over, blood sacrifices...and lets not forget the foundations of stars meaning something about saviors or being saved or prophecies of....its more of a venture and true seeker (impo) to seek why the similarities run through all of these beliefs....instead of assuming whatever is not in the Bible is then false.

LV

LV
First I checked your links, they are good resources. But I am going to just quote you in this conversation to save some time..."The Gnostic text point out that the Most High Supreme One is not of the same nature of the God in the OT" then "You have no more proof that the God of the OT was the True Infinite Creator then I have that he was not. I could say, since you believe in the God of the OT that YOU are the one following a false nature just the same....it makes neither one a proof of anything....but the nature I seek for and feel in my soul is not of the nature of the ruler in the OT"

It is my view this topic is about Gnostics wanting to destroy God. By God I make the assumption the conversation is about the God of the OT and the NT, and clearly, the Gnostics want to add/change what he is.
In those terms, they would want to destroy him. But, you do do it with great eloquence


[edit on 21-2-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
LV
First I checked your links, they are good resources. But I am going to just quote you in this conversation to save some time..."The Gnostic text point out that the Most High Supreme One is not of the same nature of the God in the OT" then "You have no more proof that the God of the OT was the True Infinite Creator then I have that he was not. I could say, since you believe in the God of the OT that YOU are the one following a false nature just the same....it makes neither one a proof of anything....but the nature I seek for and feel in my soul is not of the nature of the ruler in the OT"

It is my view this topic is about Gnostics wanting to destroy God. By God I make the assumption the conversation is about the God of the OT and the NT, and clearly, the Gnostics want to add/change what he is.
In those terms, they would want to destroy him. But, you do do it with great eloquence

[edit on 21-2-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

Mabey my eloquence shows more of a true nature. One should always be careful of accepting anything they believe to be a 'truth'. I followed the God of the Bible for many years. I have my story and personal experiences that have led me down my path. I have reasons for what I believe.

Many are still clinching their fist around the God that demands blood shed for sins. By all means, if its working for you, stick with what you believe as Gods message brought to man through a divine book. To assume I dont have a logical or personal reason to believe something is unwise. I have grown from the wrathful and prideful god/ruler and have found the nature of Thee to be truly divine and unconditionally loving and nurturing.

Im sure we both know, only Thee will judge me on if I sought Thee's true nature...so you dont need to worry about doing that for Thee.

To many Thee will say...you do not know me, for I can not yet know you.

Best Intentions, its been great talking with ya,
LV

Xcouncil you dork! Yes I am writing to myself. You need some glasses, cause you can't see anything from up on that highhorse you're riding.
You misconstrewed the intent of the the thread didn't you.
Its not "do the Gnostics want to kill the God of the Bilbe" Like I have been tying in order to push my point of view, the question was
Is it possible to kill God/Satan
No and NO
Not for man.
The best we can due is perversion.

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


Of course its not a possibility to kill God.

So really, the whole title of this thread is wrong. Gnostics have nothing to do with 2012 nor do most care about a date for a 'happening'. Most gnostic based believers I have met or talked with are very humble people who dont want to kill anything. They may feel they have found a wisdom on how the light and darkness cycle through and work out as a function of emanations....but they dont see it as their duty to try to kill anyone!

Show me a passage from the gnostic texts themselves that shows they are wanting to kill god or that they are going to try to do something in 2012.

Peace,
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


This isn't a gnostic text but it does describe man confronting God in a showdown.

Revelation 19: 19-21

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Pretty good huh?

reply to post by jackflap


Well, I appreciate you pointing out to me a verse in Rev. but really...what does that have to do with the topic. I dont believe that God brings word of fear for it defeats the true purpose of why one should come to Thee or seek Thee. If Revelations has any merit of truth, then I would say it is describing two things. First, would be the order of the cosmos and how they do cycle to bring catalysts to the Earth and second, it tells the repetitive history of man not being ready to rejoin their original essence, remaining or being reborn into flesh (fire)...becoming a part of the next emanation. I think there is a knowledge of the cycles of the stars and the warnings have evolved from ancients knowing that there are certain times when the order of the stars brings catastrophes to Earth.

Rev. tells people Jesus will come by force with a new order. This again, goes against the divine nature. What good is it to force something onto a place and tell them, TIME IS UP, sorry you didnt figure this all out by now.

When man is placed in the divine essence, God can not be denyed, one see's that denying Thee would be denying themselves as well. When one is in the presence of this divinity, all is obvious and all is known.....one then judges themselves, knowing how the divine nature see's them and knows them. Its not so much about denying God when God comes, but saying, many do not reach the point of understanding while in the flesh to seek this very nature within ones self. Accepting yourself while in the flesh, with a humble heart, brings a truthful heart before Thee, who see's the pure heart and humble seeking. If this is not done in someones life, they will relearn and be reborn.....becoming spirit within matter once again. I feel that when religions talk about being born of the fire, they dont understand this is being born of the flesh...as many times as it takes.

But this is just my personal view point, I dont really care for Rev. much as you can see....at least not to how others care for it.

Im also not a big fan of prophecies coming from the Infinite Creator. It just makes no sense to me....but anywho.....just some thoughts

LV

Some thought of the creator of this world, aka the demiurge, to be evil, but most modern gnostics rather view it as imperfect I'd say. The group mentioned in that book are the Rosecrusians (sp?) which are really dualistic and came about much later that the gnostics that wrote the nag hammadhi texts. There's a lot of variety in gnosticism so to group "gnostics" together and speak about them is sort of tough.

But no, how could someone kill (or whatever word) the demiurge? Basically, I'd say it'd have to be reincorporated back into its source, which came from Sophia. This unification is what I would say gnostics work towards.

God IS dead

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
LV
First I checked your links, they are good resources. But I am going to just quote you in this conversation to save some time..."The Gnostic text point out that the Most High Supreme One is not of the same nature of the God in the OT" then "You have no more proof that the God of the OT was the True Infinite Creator then I have that he was not. I could say, since you believe in the God of the OT that YOU are the one following a false nature just the same....it makes neither one a proof of anything....but the nature I seek for and feel in my soul is not of the nature of the ruler in the OT"

It is my view this topic is about Gnostics wanting to destroy God. By God I make the assumption the conversation is about the God of the OT and the NT, and clearly, the Gnostics want to add/change what he is.
In those terms, they would want to destroy him. But, you do do it with great eloquence

[edit on 21-2-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

But we believe Gnosticism predates Christianity...Maybe it is you that seek to destroy God?!?

This whole gnostics killing OT god and stuff is funny at the lest.I have studied the nosis.it very simple,the all know one of everything is a being of light and eternity.Dimurge is one of his first creations,but Dimurge thought he could make a world better then that of gods,and made the material universe.The material universe is flawed by the embuement of discord,wich is the essesen's of dimurge.
Basicaly the kindom of heaven is the kindom of light,and the discordian kindom is matter.

To use todays tech tp explain it.it is a know fact the light as we know slowly tears away all matter it meets,this is how sunlight generates heat,it must hit matter first.light corrodes matter,albeit it take long periods of time,but what is time to light?
and we go full circle to jesus,and his kindom of light,and the clay vessal of the body.
gnostics would never kill there father,the whole basis of the faith is to worship and find the creator with in you,the spark of life given to you by the unamed one,inside lies the doorway,this is where the father is most reachable to us.Gnosis is the practice of turning inward for god,not oward,somewhat like buddist.In truth buddisim and gnosis have a very many things in common.Jesus is the perfect man,the one to me aspired to,he was the one of our brother that was so perfect in the fathers eyes he took up the mantle of his father and the son became the father.A prime exapmle of the inner search gnosis teaches,is akin to when jesus went to the desert and was tempted.He went seekign his father alone,and within,this is the path to truth,and sophia,wisdom..
may all of you.my brothers and sisters,remember you do have a father,and he is closer then you think.

Me personally, I like MatrixProphet's angle.

Good and bad.... are like counterbalances. Why is Lucifer considered "the light bringer"? Is it that Lucifer directly brings seemingly great things to you like comfort and love and a feeling of self-importance? Or is it that Lucifer rips all those things away from you.... so you are left essentially bare, with only this "thing" that you are observing the horror and the beauty of it all.... and you have no good to seek comfort in, and evil has become mundane..... what is left to know?

The only thing left to know is.... who is God? Is God good? Is God evil? Is God up there or down there or in some other spatial reality? What does God want us to know about Him?

What is this? Who are you? The answer does not alleviate pain and suffering from experience. The answer does not turn you into some super-being with superpowers. The answer simply puts all into perspective. Gnosis is not complicated, and it is not a religion. All you self proclaimed "Gnostics" are floating in your own private sea over there, but be rest assured....the sea and the ocean are one. You see borders, and you mistake it for something different.

The truth is that you cannot ever transcend matter. There is no existence which is denser or higher or lower. There is no "good" or "bad". There is no "us" VS "them". There is only ONE! All else is an illusion of the one. "We" are God. Material existence is God. Spectral, etherial, spiritual existence.... all of these vague and meaningless terms are God. Anything outside of any of these terms is God.

You cannot kill God. You cannot pinpoint which God is true, or which God is false, you cannot know right and wrong. You cannot judge. In reality, all we are MEANT to do with this existence, no matter what color of the spectrum it is or was or will be, is be it. Don't question it too much. Just accept what is in your heart... even if what is in your heart is considered "evil" or "crazy" or "wrong" to everyone except you.... the heart finds a way because it is the way. Each facet is interconnected in this illusion called existence, and each facet is equally as important. The illusion is not good nor evil. It is just something to experience.... and all facets are there to be experienced in all ways.

If somebody kills your entire family... give thanks. If someone gives you a meal in a time of food shortage, give thanks. If someone rapes and pillages a nation in the name of freedom and justice, give thanks. If a baby is born, give thanks. If a baby dies, give thanks. If anything.... give thanks. Appreciate it all, my friends. Let it all be. Let your personality play out exactly how it will.... let your physical and mental struggles become.... let it unfold.

It happens without force, without effort. Things present themselves when the order dictates... and your job as an "I am" is to receive these things, whatever they may be...in whatever way you receive them, you are receiving them regardless. It is all a gift, even the worst possible things you could imagine. Give thanks for it.

This is the gnosis. To understand. Not to play along with beliefs in understanding or put things on pedestals higher or lower than one's self. I don't preach in my normal life. I doubt anybody would recognize this writing as being related to the guy they would see typing it. I doubt even if I spoke, that my actions and my words would mesh in the eyes of the people.... but what is far more important is that the gnosis isn't an ac tion, a belief, or a way of life. It is ALL actions, beliefs, and ways of life... and even thee man who goes against all words he preaches should, once in a while, be able to speak of it because it is within his/her/its own being that the gnosis lies.

The liar speaks the truth, the truth speaks lies, the sin is holy, the holy is sinful, the lover hates, the hater loves, the is isn't, and the isn't is....

I can't think of any number of words spoken over any stretch of time or space that could galvanize truth into the eyes of the blind....

It is something that exists regardless of your thoughts. Those who seek to destroy it.... perhaps they don't understand fully... but I doubt this world would exist without the persistence of ignorance. I give thanks to that.

Cheers!

"Before enlightenment, go to bar and get very drunk. After enlightenment, go to bar and get very drunk."

If you speak of understanding as though you understand, then you don't understand. As you can see, I speak very vaguely about "God" and "understanding" and I don't give specifics into what this understanding is, what God is, why killing God is ridiculous, yada yada.... because I understand that words cannot reflect this understanding. I can only say that.... at some point on your journey, you will understand.... and when you know all there is to know, you will realize why it has been that you never understood before.... and the whole cycle will repeat.

There is no eternal "God". This vagueness we refer to as "God" is constantly changing.

Perhaps what this sect of Gnosticism as an ideological branch is referring to
is civilization. I believe one of my Satanist friends once said that Satanism is actually about killing the material "God" of humans.... which is civilization and culture and society and all pre-conceptions about the permanence of reality.

Satanism just takes this lesson teaching to a very uncomfortable extreme.

Buddhism, in contrast.... is as effective of a tool in showing impermanence, oneness, natural order, the nature of consciousness/reality as Satanism.... but I guess could just be called a much kinder and more peaceful approach.

Gnostic Satanism uses masochism and sadism.... the material/physical force... to try and transcend and "destroy" materialism, or "God" in the eyes of many.... and my personal opinion is that Satanic Gnosticism as an ideological tool of eventual transcendence is a very very very inefficient method which requires lifetimes and lifetimes of being caught in the darker shades of existence in order to truly transcend.....

That, I do not agree with. We, as a world, are not in harmony with that method of transcendence. You can kill your Gods much more effectively through compassion, reason, and open-mindedness. No need to cause an imbalance and destroy a world by adding an excess of unneeded pain and suffering. No need to waste more on teaching a lesson than the lesson is worth.