Did the Masonic Dream Die?

reply to post by Masonic Light


The RCC and GOC are very different.

www.otweb.com...


"- In 1054, the Greek Orthodox church split from the Roman Catholic church.
- Catholics believe the Pope is infallible. Orthodox believes the Pope is fallible.
- Decisions in the Orthodox are made by a local bishops, the synod.
- Catholics believe Mary was born without sin (Immaculate Conception).
- Orthodox believes Mary was not born without sin.
- Catholics believe in purgatory. Orthodox do not believe in purgatory.
- Catholic priests cannot marry. Orthodox priests can marry.
- Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox are part of Eastern Orthodox.
- Full name of Eastern Orthodox is "The Orthodox Catholic Church".
- Orthodox is a combination of two Greek words, orthos (straight) and doxa (worship).
- Orthodox reject the idea that God can be known by human reasoning.
- Roman Catholicism places a high value on human reason.
- Roman Catholicism views the sacraments as necessary for salvation and the reception of God’s grace.
- Eastern Orthodoxy the sacraments are not seen as meritorious but instead as bringing one into the presence of Christ."

The sacramental differences alone are huge.


[edit on 22-2-2008 by RWPBR]

reply to post by RWPBR


All rather trivial though honestly.. politics is not what makes these denominations so different then the way they actually conduct Mass.

I agree with ML's sentiment as stated on the page before we pretty much have the same thoughts on the subject. Gnostic's probably where the very first Christians in an unorganized way.

Originally posted by RWPBR
- Catholics believe the Pope is infallible. Orthodox believes the Pope is fallible.

Just a minor point of clarification. The Pope's "infallibility" refers to only matters of interpretaiton of Church doctrine. This "infallibility" extends to the body of bishops as a whole, when in unity with the Pope they teach a doctrine as "true".

Catholics don't think the Pope is without sin, or inerrant on other topics, or "perfect" in any particular way. Of course, depending upon any particular Pope and any specific Catholic on any specific doctrinal topic, you might get an argument on even that narrow a context.

As for the Cardinals, they're still in St. Louis and ought to have a pretty good year.

reply to post by yeahright


This is true.. the Popes opinions on matter not associated with the Church's governing, is not taken as infalliable.

The reason that the Pope is infalliable when it comes to Church Doctrin is quite simple... hes a Monarch, and I believe ol' Louis XIV said it best.

L'État, c'est moi

Originally posted by drift393
I was going to start a post regarding Mason's and the impact that they had in the founding of America. That's when it kind of hit me that maybe the Freemason's true dream of America was never fully realized. From what research I have done it seems to me that Freemason's that were our founding father's were very open to the fact that they were Freemason's. The symbolism and wording on many documents it seemes to me that they tried to estqablish a new government for Freemason's and to try and (excuse the term) push Masonry on the rest of the population. Or at least open alot of peoples eyes to Masonry.

I would respectfully disagree. I think they built the foundation of the nation on the ideals they felt strongly about, and I agree that many of those ideals are valued and encouraged in Masonry. I do not, however, think it was ever their intent to "push" Masonry on anyone. It is an individual's journey, and during the making of a Mason, there are numerous times when the candidate is asked if they're joining "of their own free will and accord". That doesn't sound like something that would, or even could, be "pushed".

Yes I do realize that there are alot of Mason's in positions of power today. Do they flaunt it openly like the founding fathers did? Such as Washingtons Masonic funeral or that when he took his oath he did so with a bible from his own Masonic lodge? Benjamin Franklin printing the first Masonic book to be published in America.

Which makes me question if there are, in fact, a lot of Masons in positions of power today. I somehow doubt it. (Feel free to challenge that if you like, but only with those whom are publicly on record as being Masons and not unfounded speculation. Not saying you have to prove your point, just that I haven't seen evidence of it myself and am inclined to question your position.) Masonry as a whole has seen a significant decline in membership in the last 50 years, since its peak after WWII. All things being equal, if the general population of Masonry has decreased, I would think the number of Masons holding public office would have decreased proportionally, unless you can show me a strong argument as to why the decline would only be in the layman and not the "ruling class".

So what happened to the openess that was expressed from those times till now? Did the Masons's have a plan to publicly push Masonry upon the newly formed Democracy and somehow they decided to use a more subtle approach? Maybe to many applicants at one time?

I honestly believe that the reason we're not seeing our leaders espouse Masonic dogma openly is because our leaders are not Masons. I don't consider it a matter of security through obscurity, but simply a fact that these men have not studied the same teachings that their predecessors may have.

[edit on 3/12/2008 by JoshNorton]

[edit on 3/12/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by RWPBR
From where I stand Catholic and Christian are 2 very different things. I dont meant to offend anyone it is just how I view the 2 faiths.

So are any two protestant churches different from each other. You could take any two non-catholic churches and compile a list of differences just as you have done with the RCC and GOC above.

For example, the "Christian" Churches as you have grouped them here ( being all of those which are not Catholic) are divided into Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian, which is a HUGE difference in dogma, bigger than many of the differences you have listed above. How could these be more similar than Catholic and non-Catholic Trinitarian churches?

JoshNorton thanks for your replies I think the word "pushed" was the wrong one to use I had a feeling when I typed it that it was. Maybe I should have used influenced. Maybe you hit the nail on the head so to speak with stating that Mason's do not have as many influencial members as they once had in positions of power, something that I will take a look at. In no way am I an anti-mason or trying to mason bash. This is not a all masons are the spawn of satan wanting to dominate the world thread. More of an I am curious as to what I percieve as a decline of power or influence questions. Thanks

Some interesting thoughts on this board! I hope you will indulge a humble newbie a few thoughts:

To resound some of my brothers' comments, the United States is not a Masonic state. Instead the United States was shaped by the same Enlightenment ideals that gave rise to Masonry itself, and at a similar time. There are volumes written on what Masonry did for republicanism and democracy in the latter 18th century and not all authors agree. But one may venture to say that natural law, the concept that man is worthy of improvement for his own sake, and tenents of representative government are evident in both the republican movement and Masonry.

I would also suggest that there is no "Masonic Dream," except spreading the principals of Masonry to more men, and they need not be political or business leaders for them to make good Masons. If Masonic ideas help a man be a better dad, that's achievement of a Masonic dream. If a man takes a leadership position in his lodge when he's never done anything of the kind and gains self-confidence in his public speaking abilities, that's achievement of a Masonic dream.

For all the pomp and pageantry of our rituals, they are simply the foundation of what Masons believe, and an important shared experience. When a brother takes something positve he learned from the ritual (or other brothers in lodge) and puts it to work in his daily life to improve himself, his family or his community, that is the Masonic dream.

Originally posted by RWPBR
Freemasonry fostered the idea of Liberty but the men who founded the United States where not doing it for Freemasonry. They were also Christians but did they found the U.S. for Christians ?

The founding fathers fathered the US for Satan.

It doesn't matter if they were masons or christians, as both follow lucifer the light bringer.

Some call him Jesus others call him satan.

The idea is the same, spead evil by declaring yourself supiror to your fellow human beings and make them dance to your tune. Control, manipulate, decieve. Freedom from the illeterate masses by deceit and skullduggery.

The more intelligent forceful type A personalities dominate the rest of thier weaker more manipulatable brothers by use of mental force.

This is your truth.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by In nothing we trust


I find statements like this are usually an expression of some sort of hatred for the larger government, and not at all based in reality and fact. I love how people chirp in with utter self-righteousness to tell us what is truth. For these are the people who are blinded most by political ideology and emotion - in this case, rage and hatred.

So long as different people disagree on how to govern, there will be conflict. Period. No, we just can't all play the idealized pacifist and self-righteously attack everyone who uses conflict - because there will always be at least one party in a disagreement that is both willing and able to use force.

Whether or not the United States was founded on Christian principles, it was certainly founded on principles of religious freedom for all people. However, at the time what was considered a "person" was extremely narrow. It was wrong, and things have changed, but its certainly not founded on "satan." Much of the founding ideals of the nation were shared by masons, but not because masons were trying to implement a "masonic dream." It just so happens masons believe in many things that others agree with: like freedom of religion. The concept is not masonic, but masons do believe in it.

This is your truth - this is reality. The brethren are not exploiting anyone. Face it.

I disagree. I feel that Masons as a whole never felt the need or want to push it on anyone. I think th ones on the same level that recognized the true benefit also agreed on the fact that it is more for the finders almost as if a heraldry not by blood.

As far as a majority application, I suppose it would depend on majority insight. Many will disagree that there is a majority thought on many areas in freemasonry but I think there are quite a few things it is applied to in modern society.