Paul and Christianity

just because i have not yet put quotes up to back my claims does not mean i am ignorant of the scriptures.it just means that i am busy!! as most of my messages on here are wrote while i am in work.

and i should point out that i am not the first person to question paul's teachings.if you look,you will find!!

reply to post by jakyll
'"Peter also opposed her in regard to these matters and asked them about the Savior. 'Did he then speak secretly with a woman, in preference to us, and not openly? Are we to turn back and all listen to her? Did he prefer her to us?'"


at the council of nicea the work of jesus and the books of the bible were chopped and changed.this would be the first of many meetings when such things would happen.look up the nag hammadi scrolls.these works include the gospels of philip and thomas.(amongst many others.) definatly worth reading!'

Exactly!

J.

to jimbo999.have you read the book of enoch??

just asking because,along with the gnostic texts and the dead sea scrolls,this is a book all christians should read!!

Originally posted by jakyll
to jimbo999.have you read the book of enoch??

just asking because,along with the gnostic texts and the dead sea scrolls,this is a book all christians should read!!

Hey there - well, to begin with, I'm not a christian I'm just a person who loves to disect mysteries - and ancient history is one of my passions. But, yes, I've read the bible...long ago. But I find things like the DSS and the Nag Hamadi (Gnostic Gospels) far more interesting.

I also however, find sanctamonius, self-righteous people higly irritating Hence, my interest in your posts, and dissagreement with your tormentor.



J.

Does Paul not appear to be going against Jesus' teachings in the DSS? I recall that to be so. If not for a stroke of luck, that being the choice of the heirs of someone who held copies of the DSS to release them to the public. The copies were made when the woman agreed to never release them. It took over 40 years even though they were translated in around two years. That might be because the RCC assigned them to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly called the Inquisition, for safeguarding. They had no intention of making them public, imo.
Also, Iraneaus, excuse my spelling, picked some books and dismissed others to be part of the bible. I have the nag hammadi books, and see them to be no less credible than any one of the 10 000 versions of the bible.
Jesus was a Nazarene Rabbi, which means he was Jewish. Unpopular with some Jews, but Jewish nonetheless. So why Paul started up his own new non-Jewish church is hard for me to see. I believe Jesus told John to lead on in his absence, not Paul.
Paul was acting on his own, which is likely why my Jewish friend calls his church Paulianity.
Jesus own teachings, in the NT, seem opposed to what Paul did. Jesus saw a day Jews and Gentiles lived side by side, and told his followers he was their friend, they were not his servants, which I see to mean that he proscribed them from worshipping him.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Jesus was a Nazarene Rabbi, which means he was Jewish. Unpopular with some Jews, but Jewish nonetheless.

I agree with that.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
So why Paul started up his own new non-Jewish church is hard for me to see. I believe Jesus told John to lead on in his absence, not Paul.
Paul was acting on his own, which is likely why my Jewish friend calls his church Paulianity.
Jesus own teachings, in the NT, seem opposed to what Paul did. Jesus saw a day Jews and Gentiles lived side by side, and told his followers he was their friend, they were not his servants...

First you state that Paul started his own non-Jewish church and then you state that Jesus wanted Jews and Gentiles to live side by side - which is EXACTLY what Paul of Tarsus attempted to do

He wished to allow anyone and everyone to become a Christian, which Peter initially opposed.

There were various communities of Christians who had different interpretations and scriptures surrounding Issa/Jesus. Early church leaders and Roman emperors decided which texts should be used and eventually molded the early church into an institution that used Paul's letters as a major block in the foundation of Christianity and the Bible. In light of this, Paul DID NOT start his own church with a hierarchy of priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. Instead, his epistles became part of a future church that emerged independently of him, when he was no longer around to edit and improve upon his earlier ideas.

Paul was a missionary, not a cardinal, not a bishop, and not a pope. By classic definition, Paul was never even ordained a priest

All that came about many years after his death at the hands of the Romans.

[edit on 17-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by x0846
Originally posted by plague

All you have to do is read what Jesus says in the bible. Then read Pauls letters and teachings and his disciple timothy and you will see a vast difference, but the most common of these is the fact that Jesus says many times over that faith alone will not get you anywhere. You must uphold my fathers commandments and my commandments and perform works in order to reach heaven.

Once again a non-believer trying to understand and grasp what God has said. You can’t do it, you’re out of the loop and you will never understand His word until you come to faith.

Read chap 6 of John, you most likely won’t understand it but concentrate on what Jesus says about faith.

If you feel you’ve found a contradiction how about pointing it out so someone can comment. Just posting a general accusation doesn’t help a discussion progress. If all you can do is point without having some substance of examples is pointless. That’s grade school communication.

x0846

WOW how little you know of things. "another non believer" .... I often get into heated debates with people on ATS and it sometimes gets out of hand but I never get insulted or mad...thats not in my nature. But you my friend have really PISSED ME OFF. How can a dogmatic spiritually blind person have the nerve to call me a non believer. Why because I have read the bible and tried to track down the lost text of Jesus and the other Apostles. Which you dont even have to do to understand why Paul is not a real Christian just read the edited and warped bible. I mean they tried so hard to bury the true teachings but they couldnt bury them deep enough. WOW ok the guy did alot of missionary work but what good is it if your not spreading the truth ... just what you think is the truth and trying to say its "Christian". I guess I could start making stuff up and going from town to town calling myself an apostle and just droppin Big Js name all the time. Hey then I would be "Christian" maybe not a true christian but I think id rather be a follower of truth. What do you know of being a believer. Hey if your a believer of Paul thats all good buddy and you think with your catoract filled eyes that you understand god word thats fine too. But you dont know what sacrifices ive made in my life to follow a path to god that most people dont want to take. No im not a Christian, but Im a Vaishna ...a devotee to Krishna ...... I am a follower of KRSNA Consciousness, that is to say Im God conscious..... just as Jesus was God conscious (and anyone who teaches the truth about god is ok in my book and he was agreat Guru and its a shame that people say they follow his teachings when they dont) The scriptures we have to enjoy are much more plentiful then the jewish, christian, and muslim books combined, and are all written under authority of God. They are much more informing then the books in the bible. Actually the stuff in the bible is rather elementary and is like the basics of the Vedic coulture and thought on Gods teachings. They are untouched and unbroken, handed down not only in book but Guru to disciple (just like Christ to the apostles) and when the chain was broke GOD came himself to fix it. As a Vaishna I have 4 main vowels I must keep. No eating meat, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. There are many other rules and regulations. Chanting the holy names of the lord...16 names makes a japa and we do those 16 names 108 times to make a round..then we chant 16 rounds a day or more. I offer inscence to god when i wake up and before i go to bed. I offer my food to god (theres a whole ritual to it) when I can and im always meditating on him.I owe everything to god, my family, my work everything I own... its all because of him. So now I want you to go to the mirror and look yourself in the eyes and ask whos the nonbeliever?????
Then I want you to go sit down in the corner and reread the bible, and then go find the hidden text... Then come repost when you know something about something until then ....keep it zipped!!!!!!!

to jimbo999...you sound like me,lol.i too love ancient history and am not a christian,even though i was baptized a catholic.

i have met many religious ppl on here who won't open their minds to works that are about jesus! never mind anything else.i guess its coz their used to their faith being attacked.although,i always say...none so blind as those that will not see.none so deaf as those that will not hear!!

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
So why Paul started up his own new non-Jewish church is hard for me to see. I believe Jesus told John to lead on in his absence, not Paul.
Paul was acting on his own, which is likely why my Jewish friend calls his church Paulianity.
Jesus own teachings, in the NT, seem opposed to what Paul did. Jesus saw a day Jews and Gentiles lived side by side, and told his followers he was their friend, they were not his servants...

First you state that Paul started his own non-Jewish church and then you state that Jesus wanted Jews and Gentiles to live side by side - which is EXACTLY what Paul of Tarsus attempted to do

He wished to allow anyone and everyone to become a Christian, which Peter initially opposed.
Paul was a missionary, not a cardinal, not a bishop, and not a pope. By classic definition, Paul was never even ordained a priest

All that came about many years after his death at the hands of the Romans.

[edit on 17-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Gentiles already existed, and starting a new church, another potential source of contention and divisiveness is hardly furthering the cause, imo.
But I do see your point about the Romans. The name is after all the Roman Catholic Church, which does suggest by the word Roman being first, that it was first and foremost a Roman, and second a Catholic Church.
I have wondered why people who revere Jesus don't become Jews? Not that they need do so, but if you are going to follow someone, it seems appropriate.

Blackguard,
I am imagine they dont become jews for the same reason they choose to follow paulianity instead of christianity. Its to hard.... take the easy way out, and Paul gives them the easy way out.... just believe...lol.....

[edit on 17-8-2007 by plague]

So likely to be the case indeed. Thinking is just too darn inconvenient so they go for the other option. Just tell me the answer, or I'll just accept whatever everybody else seems to be accepting as true, so I don't have to actually think and make up my own mind.
I will decide what I consider proof, or truth. Just telling me that it is true isn't good enough for me, I need it explained so I can understand it.
If it is not explained to me sufficient for me to accept it, I will hold off on agreeing until it is.
lol... you made me smile.

Hello and thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond.

I have two quick requests. It seems that the perceived contradictions between the teahings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul are found in extra cannonical works, such as the gnostic gospels.

So, request one: Can someone who is knowledgeable on the subject point to any contradictions between the teachings of the two that are found within the commonly accepted Bible? Thanks!

Request two: It seems that the rhetoric has gotten a bit extreme here. Certainly not my intent as the OP. I'm just trying to understand why people believe as they do.

I think that it would help if people would refrain from making judgements about the knowledge level, spiritual development or intelligence of others. It might also help to throw in a few 'in my opinions' or 'it seems to me's.

Thanks again!

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
Hello and thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond.

I have two quick requests. It seems that the perceived contradictions between the teahings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul are found in extra cannonical works, such as the gnostic gospels.

So, request one: Can someone who is knowledgeable on the subject point to any contradictions between the teachings of the two that are found within the commonly accepted Bible? Thanks!

Request two: It seems that the rhetoric has gotten a bit extreme here. Certainly not my intent as the OP. I'm just trying to understand why people believe as they do.

I think that it would help if people would refrain from making judgements about the knowledge level, spiritual development or intelligence of others. It might also help to throw in a few 'in my opinions' or 'it seems to me's.

Thanks again!

Eric

Contradiction one, Circumcision. Paul basically demanded that Gentiles and even Jews who followed Christ should not be circumcised. Read about the Judaizers. Paul did not like Christians who followed Jewish Customs.

Jesus and the Apostles though followed Jewish customs and even Jesus said to a gentile woman "I have come for the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and even forbid the Apostles from ministering to Gentiles.

These differences caused James and the Church of Jerusalem in history to part ways with Paul. The Jerusalem Church was considered by the Romans to be in fact Jewish and was destroyed in the Diaspora.

In the early Roman Church they forbid Circumcision and persecuted those who kept Jewish customs. Labeled them heretics simply because of circumcison, kosher diets, celebrating high holy days (Passover), kept the Torah, or held the Sabbath on Saturday.

reply to post by jimbo999


j.,

'If you feel you’ve found a contradiction how about pointing it out so someone can comment. Just posting a general accusation doesn’t help a discussion progress. If all you can do is point without having some substance of examples is pointless. That’s grade school communication'

The problem for you of course, is you're relying on Paul's version of events - The New Testament - which is not in any way shape or form, the original teachings of JC

Relying on the Bible for your info is like looking at the Grand Canyon thru a keyhole - you can't see the big picture - you will only see what the church WANT'S you to see...

You really need to do better than just point, give some examples of what YOU think are contradictions between Paul and Jesus.

I believe it is you who’s looking at the word of God through a ‘keyhole’ and can’t see the harmony through out all of His word. – so you only see what YOU want to see! So come on and pony up with some evidence supporting your ‘theory’ otherwise you’re just a gossiper. [not a dis ]

x

reply to post by jimbo999


Jim, come on man....examples! You do have some don't you?

x

reply to post by jimbo999


Believing that only YOU understand what 'God' is saying in the Bible is a sure sign of arrogance. You only seem to have any understanding of a heavily edited, re-written, censored book - so what gives you the right to judge 'God's' word exactly? That's too funny for words. Try reading the Gnostic Gospels to begin with - when you have a grasp on those - come back and tell us all about it, because only then will you have a measured, open opinion (hopefully)


So, are you saying that you’re arrogant? All I hear you say is the Scriptures contained in the bible are not Gods word. Which tells me you are a non-believer and being a non-believer you will NEVER understand Gods word. Do you know what a sure sign is when someone can’t back up their accusations about Scripture? They manipulate the words of the person that calls them on there statements. I never said that only I understand what the word of God is saying.

reply to post by plague


WOW how little you know of things. "another non believer" .... I often get into heated debates with people on ATS and it sometimes gets out of hand but I never get insulted or mad...thats not in my nature. But you my friend have really PISSED ME OFF. How can a dogmatic spiritually blind person have the nerve to call me a non believer……..


Nothing like contradicting yourself, well, now that you’ve gotten that off your chest I hope you feel better. So you are a non-believer [as in you don’t believe the Scriptures are Gods word] and I do believe you are a believer in a god, many people believe in a god. There aren’t any contradictions in Scripture it is Gods word not a gods word. When I said you can’t understand and grasp Gods word is because……

God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2)

Get it?.......................................probably not.

Originally posted by x0846
reply to post by plague

 

WOW how little you know of things. "another non believer" .... I often get into heated debates with people on ATS and it sometimes gets out of hand but I never get insulted or mad...thats not in my nature. But you my friend have really PISSED ME OFF. How can a dogmatic spiritually blind person have the nerve to call me a non believer……..


Nothing like contradicting yourself, well, now that you’ve gotten that off your chest I hope you feel better. So you are a non-believer [as in you don’t believe the Scriptures are Gods word] and I do believe you are a believer in a god, many people believe in a god. There aren’t any contradictions in Scripture it is Gods word not a gods word. When I said you can’t understand and grasp Gods word is because……

God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2)

Get it?.......................................probably not.

hmmm...how did I exactley contradict myself? Ok so i see youve decided to twist my words in order to win an argument after you had been served on your limited knowledge. Thats fine it doesnt change the fact that you know very little and will probably be lost on your path forever dogmatically thinking that you know everything of the word. Thats fine but you should have taken my advice.

As for Corinthians....
Yet again I do not feel the need to listen to Pauls teachings. Yes he was a great speaker and had some knowledge of the teachings of Jesus but that doesnt change the fact that he did not preach Jesuss teaching but his own agenda.
As for me understanding the quote....lets see.
Well hes speaking of the fact that the Jiva is of unlimited knowledge of god and the spirit soul and its plans. Yes we are born into the material world with full spiritual knowledge but due to coming in contact with Maya or the material energy of god we become ignorant to our own eternal knowledge.
Now as long as we stay on the material platform of thinking or worldly thinking we can not understand the word of God. But as soon as we surrender our selves and understand that we are spirit soul just like god is spirit soul then we will begin to think on a spiritual level and will start to understand the word of God and his plans. In a nut shell Pauls saying that only those who are of a spiritual nature can be in contact with and understand the words, spirit and plans of God.
If I remember correctly he was telling the essembly of people that he must talk to them in a worldly way because they dont understan the spirit or words of god and that he came to them with just Christ in his heart and spoke plainly and that he can speak much more deeper and spiritually to those who are more advanced spiritually. Basically he was saying to teach according to time, place, circumstance and knowledge. Yet again he was teaching on an elementary level. My question is did you understand it???You got anymore for me riddle master?