Advice...self preservation and spirituality

I have been given a spiritual message.

I have been told to change. This means changing three things about myself. My issue is that it is 'self preservation' and it doesn't sit well with me. One of the challenges is fine. The other two contradict my beliefs.

Everything I do is not for the 'self' and now I have been told to do three things that effectively, preserve my existence.

I really feel this is about chosing to live and not exist. Sounds dramatic, I know, but I don't agree with the message.

Attachments keep us in a karmic cycle, so it is imperative that we lose attachments. I believe I have sorted much of this area but how can if we are spiritual beings live, thrive in this realm?

Why would I want to be extremely healthy? Why would I continue with preserving the self? MajorMalfunction interpreted a dream for me the other day and suggested an issue of self destruction.

My quandary is, if I am spiritual, why should I give a rats if I might die?

Isn't that the goal? Shouldn't we aim to forsake the body?

I have been dwelling on this ever since and I toy with the reality, that if I am self destructive, then perhaps I am 'selfish'?

I would really appreciate some feedback.

Why on earth would we forsake our bodies? They are the vehicle by which we interact with the world, and in the blink of an eye (relatively speaking) they are gone, no matter how well we take care of ourselves.

Why should you give a rat's if you die? That's an easy one -- life calls to life. Your entire biology is designed to crave life and fight for every last breath, every last beat of the heart. I should think that if there was such a thing as sin, forsaking the gift of life would be one of the worst. Not that I believe any such thing, but one life is what you get (that we know of) and every moment should be savored.

I don't necessarily agree with losing attachments. It's part of human nature -- perhaps mammalian nature -- to be attached. I am attached to my children. A wolf is attached to its pack, and its territory. At the end of life, we ALL lose our attachments, no work necessary; we shed the shell and it's over, whether you believe in oblivion, reincarnation, or something else.

Your body is a gift. Life is a gift. Forsaking the body is rejecting the gift.

Live life while you have it, enjoy it, make the most of it, it's all that we KNOW we have. There is no guarantee of anything coming after, so live for the moment and take care of the greatest gift you have been given.

Hmmm. I woke up all philosophical and stuff this morning. Perhaps I need or maybe just

Hi NJE777, the following is not advice, it is possibilities to consider. I try not to tell anyone what to do. Just tell them what they could do.

I also believe it is not possible for a person to change but to just grow.

A piece of paper can also be a letter, an aeroplane or a funnel, but it is still a piece of paper.

MajorMalfuntion is a very smart gal and I'm sure she shed plenty of light on how you could interpret your dream.

ATS Dream links

Everything I do is not for the 'self' and now I have been told to do three things that effectively, preserve my existence.

If doing things for others makes you happy, to preserve your "self" will give you the chance to continue doing those things. If you are Yellow, Red and Blue cannot make a rainbow without YOU!

I have been dwelling on this ever since and I toy with the reality, that if I am self destructive, then perhaps I am 'selfish'?

Depends what you destroy I suppose! To destroy the demons and fears is positive.....right?

from "Mankind", WWF wrestler:
Destruction can be beautiful!

from Me:
Only after travelling to the deepest, darkest abyss of our own souls can we truly look up, see the light, and begin the climb without fear and with firm footsteps

I would be interested to know where your "message" comes from, and why three things to change about you? (optional but useful)

Both of your responses I am very grateful for. You both brought a tear to my eye.

Life is a gift, sure and the pack mentality, I am up, on and in with it and the piece of paper is sheer wisdom... plenty to think about here.

Really, thanks for sharing your insight and philosophy...

Now that I am awake ... story time, illustration of what I was saying. You got it already, but I'm in a parablicious mood.

In 1992 I was diagnosed with HIV. I was told I had 3 years to live. The meds weren't what they are now, pretty much all they had was AZT, which I was very sensitive to. I found myself a support group and a drop-in center the first week.

At the group I met this woman, E. She became a great friend of mine. We had much in common. She'd kicked heroin. I'd kicked speed. We were of an age. We hung out together, were able to feel normal together. when I was diagnosed, I could feel a huge gulf between me and people who weren't "positive." It felt like I was outside of life, looking through a thick transparent wall, and could see it, but not touch it. I basically just waited to die.

E. fought pneumonia several times. She got thin, started losing her hair. She looked about 20 years older than she really was. the last time she got pneumonia, she ended up in the hospital. We had the same doctor (I still have her). I was close with her family by then, so when they called me and said she was dying, I was welcome to come and sit the vigil.

By the time I got to the hospital the last time, she was in a coma. She had a durable power of attorney that specifically said she was not to be resuscitated, and she didn't want her life prolonged if it seemed hopeless. She wanted to die. She was tired. She'd had enough.

But despite what her mind wanted, her body hung on. And on. And on. It seemed like I was in the hospital forever.

I'm not going to mention my doc's name, I don't want her in trouble for doing something merciful. When it seemed that E. wasn't going to go, the doc gave her a massive dose of morphine to end the suffering.

I was crouched by the side of E's bed, holding her hand. Her family gathered all around. We watched her pale, sallow face. At one point her eyes opened, she took a deep breath and let it out, and stopped breathing. From where I was, I could see the pulse in her neck, her heart still beating strongly and regularly, but no one else could see it. Someone said, "She's gone. Close her eyes," and before I could say NO! Don't! her brother in law reached for her face, and her awareness crept back and she started breathing again.

It took another ten minutes before she finally, ultimately, let go.

Her mind wanted to die, she was tired. But her body wanted life, and it would not let go until it had fought the morphine and the pneumonia, and the death wish.

It made such an impression on me, the one who used to be suicidal, who went out and subconsciously acquired this horrid virus purposely, to end my life without having to do it by my own hand. Passive-aggressive suicide.

I saw that the body fights. Whether the mind knows or accepts or even wishes for death, the body fights. The body does not want to die. the body knows that when it stops, it is finished, forever.

The body is a vessel for our consciousness. But it also has its own desire to live. As part of us, that part needs to be honored as much as the thinking part and the (theoretical) soul. Forsaking the body is forsaking yourself. It is our home, and it is ourselves.

Whether there is a soul or something beyond the curtain of death, nobody really knows. But we do know the body. It is here, it is now, and it is all we really have.

the body is the pinnacle of evolution so far. It is a masterpiece of natural design. Why should it then be forsaken? Billions of years of evolution is behind each and every one. That alone should make it worth respecting.

Now I hope I haven't depressed anyone. All I can say is that, being told you have three years to live puts a whole new spin on the idea of living. It opens your eyes. It makes you realize that life isn't so bad after all, no matter what hell you live in for a moment. The wheel turns, life moves on, we go up and down the wheel as it turns. It is all as it should be and the body is the important anchor to the wheel.

Without the body we cannot grow, we cannot learn, we cannot live. Forsaking the body and things material is not logical. Each life is a gift, and the only life there is for each individual. Even if there is such a thing as "soul" and something beyond life, it will not be the same being as that which lived on the earth, in a body. The body is part of the life, without the body, there is no life. If there was a soul, it would be completely changed by being set free of the body. So the person one is NOW and HERE is all the person there is, and even if part carries on somewhere and somehow, it is not going to be the same. As water evaporates outside of a container, perhaps the "spirit" evaporates too. It changes into something else, the essence is there, but the form and function have changed.

OK I'm done now. or wisdom, only you can say if it fits for you.

Originally posted by NJE777
My quandary is, if I am spiritual, why should I give a rats if I might die?

Isn't that the goal? Shouldn't we aim to forsake the body?

Well .. no. We need the body to do God's work while we are here. Without an able body, and a sound mind, we can't convey the message, do the work, or even receive the message when it comes to a sound mind.

When you've done what you've come here or were sent here to do, then you may die. Then the flesh matters not. But until that point, your body is your vessel, it contains your soul. If it cracks and leaks, your soul will become shallow, or weak. If you dont care for yourself, your soul wont have its "tools" at its' disposal to do its' mission.

So we should aim to preserve the body. Then when its our time, our flesh dies.

And to majormalfunction. dont feel bad, we're all former junkies here! :w:

I kicked opiates, i once dabbled with the brown stuff, but typically the pharmaceutical version. And i'm sure my liver will stop functioning when I turn 40, no doubt. Good thing I dont drink! But I was heavily addicted/dependent.

I kept failing. I kept trying to quit and kept relapsing halways through my taper or my withdrawl, if i was going cold turkey. But I realized i didnt want it bad enough to endure the torture long enough to actually make it out of the tunnel on the other side, weary, but clean. weak, but clean. needing to relearn some things, but clean. sensory rawness, as i put it, but being clean.

So I went all out and said to hell with it, its me or this, my hole is big enough, am i going to lie in it or am i going to climb out? And i endured the torture to myself, taper.. withdrawl..post-withdrawl depression. And then trying to fix all the crap you screwed up when you were a junker .. oh dear, i could go on for hours about the shame felt.

But when i was at my darkest moments.. sick as a dog... depressed beyond all, pupils so big i couldnt read text, much less write anything. chills and sweats and every muscle feels like its tore or pulled. and the cramps.. and the bathroom sickness.. shutter just to think about it.

At those moments.. i had nothing left, and one day in the shower I was crying for no apparent reason, because i was so depressed, my chemicals were so off from everything, and i was crying and crying. And for once i called out to God and I said I was so sorry for all i had done to myself and everyone else i hurt in any way, that i wanted to do right, i wanted to walk in the light, i wanted to serve him/her/it with all of my purpose, to just give me the strength to get through my situation. It was a sort of personal baptism, in hindsight.

From there-on, i still felt crappy, but days went by and i began to be able to see again, started reading the Old Testament right away, I wanted to know the biblical history in detail. And it went from there.. ever since, i feel like its my covenant with God almost. I do his bidding and his work, I obey his commands, and his blessings will rain down upon me, hopefully. But if i go back to my old ways which i swore against and asked for help to defeat, well then .. who knows. God would take me back again, but i'd have to be one sincere ass person. I dont plan on allowing that to happen.

[edit on 5/29/2007 by runetang]

Firstly, I gave you a WATS.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

In 1992 I was diagnosed with HIV.

Farout, I just woke up, drinking my coffee and clicked onto read the responses and your brutal honesty just slapped me in the face.

Who puts their hand up and says... I have HIV?
I, like most of society am guarded about what I share. I can't thank you enough for your honesty. I do feel it is contagious Honesty, that is.

when I was diagnosed, I could feel a huge gulf between me and people who weren't "positive." It felt like I was outside of life, looking through a thick transparent wall, and could see it, but not touch it. I basically just waited to die.

I can't even begin to comprehend what you have been through. In life, you meet people who give you advice or share things, sometimes it is baseless, there is no depth to the advice. Its like a abled bodied person having an opinion about being paralysed. Your story is one that makes me sit up and want to listen and learn and gives me the courage to be open and share. Thank you.

But despite what her mind wanted, her body hung on. And on. And on. It seemed like I was in the hospital forever.

My best friend died of a brain tumor, my ex Father in law died from cancer of the spine and I saw them both 'hanging on'. I always felt it was the mind/emotions that hung onto life. Both of them clung onto life and it medically defied explanation.

It made such an impression on me, the one who used to be suicidal, who went out and subconsciously acquired this horrid virus purposely, to end my life without having to do it by my own hand. Passive-aggressive suicide.

oh wow, this resonates with me. Two of the things I have been told to stop doing is based on addictions. My reasoning was quite simply, "whatever gets me by..." If I need a crutch, even if its a closet crutch then "its fine with me". But, I know now with my test results that it is killing me and will kill me. So, I am concsious of it, it is passive-aggressive suicide.

My spirit guide illustrated a point to me...Imagine someone swapping their heart with you? They look after yours and you look after theirs. It changes things somewhat. You are responsible for that and must cherish it. You can't abuse it. Its ok if I abuse mine but someone elses?
Imagine you have someone elses body...would you look after yourself differently? What a great illustration, well it certainly made me think about the little regard I have had for my own body.

The body is a vessel for our consciousness. Forsaking the body is forsaking yourself.

I really liked the vessel idea. Really. Thank you.

It is here, it is now, and it is all we really have.

I like this, but I don't believe the last bit. I am very spiritual and see much in other realms. I know that this realm isn't all there is. Imagine someone gave you the insight to understand this realm. That would change the perspective.

Now I hope I haven't depressed anyone.

No, far from it, you have inspired me.

All I can say is that, being told you have three years to live puts a whole new spin on the idea of living. It opens your eyes. It makes you realize that life isn't so bad after all, no matter what hell you live in for a moment. The wheel turns, life moves on, we go up and down the wheel as it turns. It is all as it should be and the body is the important anchor to the wheel.

Fantastic analogy.

Without the body we cannot grow, we cannot learn, we cannot live.

We are in a constant learning cycle. I guess, my negative view sits around this issue. If I have had enough of the cycle, if I want out of it, then why can't I? And that is completely selfish... maybe there is more to learn, but maybe there isn't. What if I don't like the university/institution? I should be free to come and go as I please. None of us are free while we are in this realm. I don't want to put my negatives on anyone. Your perspective is healthy and perhaps mine isn't. lol

Each life is a gift, and the only life there is for each individual

If life is a gift, then a lot of people didn't get a very nice gift. Some open the box and starve to death. Some become war fodder, some are raped and murdered. All for the sake of learning on some grand conscious scale?

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and personal experiences with me. At times I felt like I was sitting opposite you chatting over a coffee.
You invited me into your home in sharing such truth.

cheers Nat

Originally posted by nerbot
If doing things for others makes you happy, to preserve your "self" will give you the chance to continue doing those things. If you are Yellow, Red and Blue cannot make a rainbow without YOU!

That is very sweet. Thank you. I exist for my children and that is really the truth. What if you can't help people, others? Oh that is so ruddy negative. But, what if you can't make a difference? What if it doesnt really matter if you do or you don't? What if we continue to perpetuate an error? What if there is a collective outcome and it is the outcome regardless of what you do or don't do?

Is there any colour that is not in the rainbow? lol

A WATS? For me? Thank you.

Originally posted by NJE777

Who puts their hand up and says... I have HIV?

I, like most of society am guarded about what I share. I can't thank you enough for your honesty. I do feel it is contagious

Honesty, that is.

Well ... me. And others I know.

You're welcome for the honesty, but that's just the way I am. And in a way it is one of my very fatal flaws. I don't keep enough to myself, I'm open as a book. The wrong kind of people read me that way. And I also tend to see other people as being this way too, which is not usually good. Because there are a lot of people out there who are bald-faced liars and sociopaths like my ex, and I take them at face value because I have trouble conceiving that many other people are not so open. And that some people wouldn't recognize the truth if it showed them three kinds of picture ID.

Part of it was my upbringing. If I lied, I was beaten worse than if I just 'fessed up. Punishments were always bad, but lying seemed to be the real bugbear to my mother.

Now that I'm an adult I just find it easier to keep track of the truth. I don't know how people can weave a web of lies and leave every one in place. I don't know how to be guarded even in the way of people who are NOT selfish and destructive.

Within one week of being diagnosed, I went to the drop in center on what happened to be their weekly art class day. And ended up on the evening news, which was there interviewing for some human interest story or other. Back when we were to be pitied for the great evil death that was hanging over us. I was young, red headed, not too bad looking. Great camera fodder. A fresh face when the HIV community was dominated by gay men. So I was pretty much out from the beginning.

I spoke on one of the local speaker's bureaus for a while, until I'd come to terms with what I had, and I learned to live and let the virus be something in the background and not run my life. Everyone I know, knows I have HIV. It's not anything I hide. It's not anything I'm ashamed of. It's just part of who I am. Both of my children are negative -- hooray for Western medicine. I have gone, in 16 years, from having three years to live, to being told I will live a normal lifespan so long as I stay on my meds. It's now a chronic disease instead of an automatic death sentence. Just like diabetes. So what's to hide? For me, at any rate, nothing.

Is there any colour that is not in the rainbow? lol

I know of at least two: infrared and ultraviolet. Well, technically they're in the rainbow, but we can't see them. Does that count?

What if you can't help people, others? Oh that is so ruddy negative. But, what if you can't make a difference? What if it doesnt really matter if you do or you don't? What if we continue to perpetuate an error? What if there is a collective outcome and it is the outcome regardless of what you do or don't do?

How do you know that just by living and being yourself you are NOT helping others? Does help have to be major, does it have to make a splash, or front page news? Does it only count if it's the local news channel's human interest story of the week?

Or is it the little things? Listening when a friend or family member needs an ear. A smile at a neighbor in passing, instead of nothing. A heartfelt thank you to someone who has just done something for you, perhaps served you at the store. Speaking to people on the internet.

Life is life. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Sometimes you're up and sometimes you're down. Sometimes we make terrible mistakes that hurt someone else. Sometimes other people hurt us. Sometimes wonderful things happen. But you can't have one without the other, and you can't live life in fear that you'll do wrong.

I don't know if you're familiar with him, but I recommend reading Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet. The chapter on Joy and Sorrow is particularly poignant, and may answer this question for you.

Your heart knows what is right for you to do, here and now. You need to listen to that. Much of what led me down the thorny path I chose for myself was being cut off from my heart. Not listening to it when it warned me, blocking out danger signals it tried to send.

And you keep calling yourself selfish. Don't be so hard on yourself. Selfishness has such bad connotations, but some self-interest and self-care is good for you. Otherwise your self-esteem suffers and you end up snuffling around in the gutter unwilling to lift your eyes six inches to the curb above it all, and climb out. If you don't take care of yourself, you cannot take care of others.

And now it's late, my soapbox is being put away in the closet, until tomorrow.

You can be sure of NOTHING in this life except yourself. Trust in you the rest will follow.

*hugs*

Nat, I had some things to share with you from personal experience, but then this crossed my path and it seemed to be suited just for you and your question.

If you are wise, you will forget yourself into greatness.
Forget your rights, but remember your responsibilities.
Forget your inconveniences, but remember your blessings.
Forget your own accomplishments, but remember your debts to others.
Forget your privileges, but remember your obligations.
Follow the examples of Florence Nightingale, of Albert Schweitzer, of Abraham Lincoln, of Tom Dooley, and forget yourself into greatness.

If you are wise, you will empty yourself into adventure.
Remember the words of General Douglas MacArthur: "There is no security on this earth. There is only opportunity."
Empty your days of the search for security; fill them with a passion for service.
Empty your hours of the ambition for recognition; fill them with the aspiration for achievement.
Empty your moments of the need for entertainment; fill them with the quest for creativity.

If you are wise, you will lose yourself into immortality.
Lose your cynicism. Lose your doubts. Lose your fears. Lose your anxiety. Lose your unbelief.
Remember these truths: A person must soon forget himself to be long remembered. He must empty himself in order to discover a fuller self. He must lose himself to find himself.
Forget yourself into greatness. Empty yourself into adventure. Lose yourself into immortality.

William Arthur Ward

I do feel these words are tried and tested and have been found by many to be truth.

I love you!