How do we stop Islamic Fundamentalism?

I'm not saying, "do nothing".
I'm merely trying to imply that the pen may be a better weapon here than the sword.

perhaps if America first announced it's intentions for leaving Islamic territories as an amnesty for Bin Laden and Hussein to work this out as diplomats, and yes I know they were given the chance, but also realize they were given that option before they REALLY had their asses handed to them on a platter.
I'm not saying forgive them, I'm not saying let them go free.
I'm saying try to work it out with words instead of bullets.
**Edit** It's never too late for peace.

And saying that, I've said my piece.
I realize how badly I'm going to be flamed for this, and frankly I don't care. If it pisses you off, then I've hit a nerve. Good.
Think about what I've said please.
And don't judge all Canadian by what I say, it is my point of view and the majority here DO NOT agree with me.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

**Edit2** Also, what war did you serve in and what division? I'm a thorough person and yes, I will look it up.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

I actually agree with you.....(war is hell)...the problem with a course of inaction is clear, post sept 11

Are you willing to take the risk that nothing is going to happen?
Ask any Australian citizen who was in Bali on holiday in Oct last year
Ask the HSBC staff in Istanbul
rightly or wrongly (depending apon your perspective) sitting on our hands puts us at risk from those who choose to pray on our generous and forgiving nature.

I was a Tornado Pilot with No9 Squadron (RAF)..from April 1988....until June 1996.

I just read the last part

Am I willing to take the risk?
Yes, I can.

To my knowledge very few Canadians have been targetted. A few died in blasts, and I highly doubt it was directed towards Canadian citizens.
Apparently we are doing something right.
The only real problem we have had with any Arabs recently is the murder of one of our reporters in Iran. And that was because she was taking pictures of things she should not have photographed.
I know it's erroneous to call Canadians innocent of everything, but we really are not that aggresive as a nation.

Ok, whats the Squadron's motto?


[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

thanks...now I fly a bus

The point is.....I really hope you are right....my heart wants to agree....but my mind says otherwise.

Oh and by the way...Canada has a great bunch of talented and highly proffessional military aviators

Thank you for the kind words.

You should see the SnowBirds!

www.snowbirds.dnd.ca...

Check it out, they fly over my area atleast once a year.

Make sure to look at the "Team" page linked at the top of the page.

**EDIT** fixing spelling on "they" which was "the"

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

Originally posted by Canuck

Originally posted by Dreamz

Originally posted by Canuck
Ok, "stopping" a religion is morally disgusting.
I'm Eclectic Pagan, I'd wager most of you have never heard that term. Part of my religious belief structure is the acceptance of all religions as long as they serve the same purpose, a good, honest life. I agree

This war was not started by the Islamics, it started as soon as a foreign power put a military base on their holy land.

Think of it this way.........

You Americans, how would you feel if you woke up one morning and let's say.... England had made a military base down the block without prior consent from your government?

You'd be pretty damn pissed off!
Wrong. We put our military in Saudi Arabia because they wanted protection by the US armed forces from Saddam Hussein. We did not just decide to surprise the Saudo's at all.



I'm not taking sides, I watch the war as a neutral observer, both sides have valid reasons for war in their own opinions, yet neither can see validity of the others reason! You see a valid reason on why 2 planes flew into the WTC's and killed innocents from various parts of the world? Well, then you my friend have underlying moral issues that I can not help you with.

They need to be sat down and talked to like the #ing children they are acting like!

No they need to be shown the only way that they know how to listen, by a show of force. These people will not listen to debates or peace treaties. They want their version of Islam to run rampant throughout the world. If we don't stop them, I frankly don't see who will. Would it of been ok if we let Hitler be, and let him spread his hatred of Jews throughout the world until he owned every last part of it?

.......... Sorry, I get testy when I'm baked

I have not been able to find a list that would shed some light on American atrcocities, I have emailed Michael Moore and all the operators of his web sites to attain the copy. If your relying on Michael Moore information, that just shows me that you are a extreme left winger.

You Americans ALWAYS assume your in the right and that you've been wronged. It always has to be YOUR way, or you bitch and moan until everybody says fine and looks the other way.
Yes, it was wrong to crash those planes into those towers, I don't dispute that. But your hands are no cleaner then theirs are!
We had never went in to any Arab country alone in the past. We were part of world organizations such as the UN and Nato that relied on America because we are the lone superpower left and we have more resources than others to help people with humanatarian issues and so forth. We did not choose by ourselves to go into Iraq in 1991. We did not go in to attack anyone for a flawed reason, the Kuwaiti's basically were screaming for our help.

When I have the list I'll be sure to ram it down your throat metaphorically!
Your country was born on war, you thrive on it.
Get your story straight, our country was born on the idea of a free society seperate from England at the time. We did not go to England and attack them, they came to America to attack us.

Your media sidelines stories that are decent and have actual meaning to show you murder, rape, and countless other crimes. And yes, Canada has it too. BECAUSE WE GET YOUR DAMN NEWS AND PROGRAMMING RAMMED DOWN OUR #ING THROATS!
If you show me a news, media outlet in the world that shows "good deeds" throughout their shows, please let me know. The truth is the media is out their for ratings and mass publication, and good stories just don't sell. That is not an American issue, that is a worldwide issue.

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States."
- J. Bartlett Brebner
"There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.
And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.
A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?"

Tony Parsons



Your opinion is biased, you need to take a few damn steps back and look at the ENTIRE situation, not just your own damn point of view!
You Americans can be so damn pig headed and stubborn, always assuming that your government has the best intentions for you and everyone else, grow the # up. Open your damn eyes and put a stop to the bloodshed!
Seems like I am not the one with the blood colored glasses on, seems like your hatred of America is brought about buy false notations on a country you know nothing about.

If you removed your damn troops from their land, they'd stop attacking you! It's that bloody simple!
Yes, a portion of their population may want democracy, well then they should move to #ing America or another Democratic nation shouldint they?
Quit ramming your #ing beliefs in other countries faces!
We do not ram our beliefs down anyones throat, they ram their desire to have our beliefs down our throat. Why should people have to leave their country to recieve freedom or basic humanatarian services. They cannot speak for themselves in these countries because of the laws that are put inplace. They are strict and can often lead to execution if they support freedom. Tianeman Square was a fine example, would you want to go against your government knowing you had no power to do so. America isnt turning a blind eye to these majorities, if other countries want to, fine so be it. If you think we are the ones who want to send our troops, our children to die for other people who dont have a voice to express their own freedom.....Than to you my friend, I would like to say your nuts.

The Palestineans and other Arabs have lived in this way for thousands of years, what makes you think you can just move in, put up a "Here, we like democracy!" sign and think they're going to accept it??!!Talk to any Palestinian and they will tell you they want democracy. Is it our fault Arabs have never advanced their societies, no is it our fault they ask for our help, no....is it our fault they fall behind in the world because of their reluctance to get with the times, no. They choose to keep their people oppressed so a limited few can stay in power. These people fall behind and it falls on Americas shoulders through the UN because we have the resources to help them.

Leave people the # alone!
I have a better idea, tell everyone else to leave America alone and stop relying on us to solve the worlds problems. Someday our heart may not be so big.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Dreamz]

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Dreamz]

"Throughout the night we fly"...is the Latin translation of my former Squadrons' motto

This has been rehashed but this touches on my developing, soon to be posted, thread on "4G" warfare, that is, (terrorist) fourth generational warfare and how to fight it.

Stopping Islamic fundamentalism is misguided. The only way to do that is to kill every person practicing Islam. And since Islam exists in the mental sphere, so as long the Koran exists and there is a person to transfer that knowledge, it, like any idea fighting for survivial within natural selection, will re-emerge. An interesting property of ideas is that ideas only disappear if they are irrelevant, due to neutrality. That is, if an idea, religion, or any mental concept, is revered or hated, it spreads. Attention of any kind is life sustaining, so to speak.

So if you wanted to stop Islamic Fundamentalism you would have to somehow make it irrelevant. Remove its' emotional charge.

You remember when you were a kid and you wanted attention from your parents, so you'd stomp and cry? What if your parents ignored you. Sure, eventually they'd pay attention to you and feed you. But what if they didn't? What if every adult ignored you. As a child you would eventually starve and die. Hence, much like a child requiring nourishment, attention and care supports Islamic Fundamentalism.

But we can't ignore 9/11. We can't ignore the quagmire in Iraq. This is because we can not ignore our terminated loved ones. Or, at least, I can't. But can we make extremist violence, somehow, irrelevant? Can we defend against such tactics?

Here's where the notion of "generations" exist within warfare. From the October 1989 Marine Corps Gazette, by William S. Lind, Col. Keith Nightengale (USA), Captain John F. Schmitt (USMC), Col. Joseph W. Sutton (USA), and Lieutenant Colonel Gary I. Wilson (USMCR):

"First generation warfare focused tactically and operationally (when operational art was practiced) on the enemy's front, his combat forces. Second generation warfare remained frontal tactically, but at least in Prussian practice it focused operationally on the enemy's rear through the emphasis on encirclement The third generation shifted the tactical as well as the operational focus to the enemy's rear. Terrorism takes this a major step further. It attempts to bypass the enemy's military entirely and strike directly at his homeland at civilian targets. Ideally, the enemy's military is simply irrelevant to the terrorist."*

Notice how each generation of warfare is more cerebral than the last? How do we fight on a battle field that is our own soil? How do we defend against improvised weaponry, something benign at one moment and fatal in the next? Improvised weaponry creates a combinatorial offensive that is impossible to completely guard against. When I can kill you with my fingernail, laced with a nerve agent, how can you stop me?

I'm afraid, directly, you don't. As in each generation of warfare, you have to somehow out-maneuver and strike at the enemy. What weakness is the enemy exploiting? The increasing centralization of society.

The defense, which becomes offensive by reducing terrorist ability to harm, is found in efforts to de-centralize. Crucial infrastructure and access needs to be distributed. Decision making, too, must become distributed. The more we mimic the decentralized aspects of terrorists, the harder it is to hit us.

The Bush administration half heatedly realizes this in giving guns to Air Marshals. On plane guarding is a form of decentralized access and decision making. Several other efforts by the Bush administration are characterized by decentralization. But a literal war on Iraq, or in the Middle East, is not appropriate. You can't fight 4G with 3G.

Anyway, I'm going to think more upon this and see what possible economical methods of defense and offense there are. (in a different thread).

ktpr


* see www.parapundit.com...

you can stop terrorist ( well ok you should be able to cut it down ) by stopping interfering in other peoples countries!

The US and I would think likely the UK have always supported dictators, funded terrorist groups, or governments hell bent on killing their own people. I think that this is pretty much the root cause of terrorism.

I think we all know why we have to play around in other countries. If only Oil wasn`t so important to the west we might live in a peaceful society. Well ok, Oil and extreme wealth. You wouldn`t want big corporations having to pay for products being made by people who are paid a decent wage! thats crazy, might aswell just pay them peanuts.

At the end of the day the only way anyone can attack the US superpower is terrorism, its a very powerful weapon.

So to sum up, leave other countries alone, don`t support dicators and we would be somewhere towards peace.

and ditch bush and the neocons obviously

Are you kidding !!!

There 100's all over the internet.

And I hate to sound like I am plugging, but seriously go to World Wide Views and check out the 'Views' section regarding North America. You'll be overloaded.

~Messiah~

I'm going to have to agree with wwviews, the Palestine issue is responsible for a large portion of the fundamentalism and violence in the world today. Solve that, and the levels of fanaticism will sink to nominal levels.

But I'm afraid that even solving that problem won't stop fundamentalism now. By going into Iraq, we have just created another hotspot for them to rally around. We've just made another Palestine for the fundamentalists to use as a source of anger.

The backlash might take years to manifest. After all it will take 10 of 15 years for some of these angry young muslim children, who've watched the bombing of Iraq on Al-Jazeera, to grow up and join a terrorist organization.

As for killing all the terrorists....there's no way we can do that. You can kill and kill and kill until you've killed millions there'll always be more. In a way, it just fans the flames. We have to find some other way. (See above).

You can't fight terrorism with the freaking military! Why do people believe that? When has that ever worked? Special forces units maybe, but not the regular army! Looking back, it seems to me that the only way nations have gotten rid of terrorism through money. By that I mean economic stability and a little bit of prosperity for the masses. I don't know how that could solve this situation though....

PS- Stop using 9-11 to justify everything. It's annoying. As if that's the worst thing terrorists could do.....right. Anyway, if you'd actually read any of the 9-11 conspiracy threads on this board you'd know that things might not be what they seem. If a missile hit the Pentagon like many of you think, it certainly wasn't Al-Qaeda that fired it....

I didn't bother to read the thread so these things might've already come up.

Fundamentalism, and by extent terrorism, basically rise from poverty and disappointment towards the society. Let's look at the Arab world, most of it is ruled by authoritarian regimes and poverty is widespread. When you combine that with the general lack of education an average Arab citizen has, it's apparent that the ground for terrorism is fertile.

When there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel, where do people all over the world turn to? Religion. In most cases it's all good, religion provides the individual solace from the problems of everyday life. But it could go the wrong way, too.

Dammit, I had a long post thought out but I lost the thought
. So basically what I'm trying to say is, terrorism is also a social problem and it can't be defeated only with the "fight fire with fire" principle. Bush's idea of bringing democracy to the Middle-East is basically a very good idea and if executed right, would bring much needed wealth and stability to the region. I just don't agree with the means that the Bush administration is currently using to "export" democracy to Middle-East.

Originally posted by heelstone
Thats easy. Remove the current U.S. administration.

You must be a young child, unaware of Islamic history and terrorism directed at the west for decades.

This is why it is impossible to have a logical discussion around here.

There is a clash of cultures going on. Historically, the stronger culture wins, and the weaker becomes assimilated, Spear. While we in the West may seem stronger and more advanced, are we culturally stronger, and are we protecting ourselves properly?

[Edited on 30-11-2003 by Thomas Crowne]

Don`t you think that the best thing to stop all the killing to to stop killing people?

America was attacked and 3000 killed, so to stop terror they attack 2 countries and kill I would think upwards of 10000. How exactly is that going to work? Why do people think that fighting fire with fire is the solution?

Say you were say in your house in Bagdad. Just a regular day.. all of a sudden.. BOOOM! everyone in your family is killed.. don`t you think that your going to feel pretty much like the people who lost someone in the Towers? If you were that person what would be your thoughts.? ooh the western people have a right to kill my family? Do you think they might want to strike back?

If you really want to work it out you`ll have to research all the conflicts throughout history and find out who fired the first shot. I think since a lot of the middle east has been ruled by the west at some point I bet I know how might have fired.

To destroy Islamic fundamentalism, you also have to destroy Judeo-Christian fundamentalism.

Have the U.S. treat the Israelis and Palestines far more even-handedly than they have in the past.

This would make HUGE strides to establishing a worldwide peace.


jako

You don't stop Islamic Fundamentalism. If you try to you only make it stronger.

The differences between the religions Christianity/Judaism/Islam in their base belief systems aren't that different. The difference comes in interpretation and practice.

The last time the West openly attacked a religion it was the persecution of the Jews by the Germans in WWII. In many ways it was this action against a ideology that put us where we are now. (it's easy to blame all the world's ills on Hitler)

From the Muslim perspective they feel attacked by the West everyday. It's not a bullets and guns thing but a erosion of their basic belief systems.

The West espouses gender equality, greater social freedom, service based government, seperation of church and state and democratic ideas. All of these are foreign to the fundametalist muslim.

The fundamentalist muslim sees their women being educated, interaction with the west, women working, politician not religious leaders in key government positions, democracy (at least forms of it) being introduce to their nations and they see in these actions a great Evil. The West is their equivalent of the Devil.

interestingly enough if you look back on european history much of what Islam is going through now is what the Church and its subsequent splinters went through a 500-1000 years ago...

Probably the most effective way to destroy Fundamentalist Islam is the indirect way. Educate their people in the west. Introduce them to social power, education, government, fashion.

To quote a popular movie: "Free their minds, so they may free themselves."

Bullets make for martyrs..

hrxll