US NAVY punked by upstart Third Worlders!

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Thanks for all the info lately. I used to be infatuated with subs as a kid, life caught up and I couldn't study up as much, now that I've got an opportunity I'd love to pick both your brains for anything new to get me all excited about subs again.

I still got a feeling that there are more reasons to not using active sonar than that. Although a small ping could probably be heard all the way across the globe. Not a good thing.

The cutthroat seems to be up to something. It's hiding some really interesting tech that they are being really vauge on. Magnetic motors, and Physics experiments besides a whole slurry of other things. Magnetic Motors-Advanced MHD or even more profoundly cooler? Physics experiments-remotlessly recharging batteries from halfway around the planet?
Ehhh...Am I getting warmer, or just another victim to disinfo?

I thought I would bump back up a thread for your enjoyment. It has been a long while since I posted on it.

It is titled "American Mystery Sub" It is only two pages long. Of intrest to you will be the pictures on page 2. These were posted by a member named West Point.
At the time he posted them I was not even aware they were available on the web so it was somewhat of a surprise to me.

As to what they are doing with the CUTTHROAT... I will leave that to the designers and engineers. THey are way up there in those lakes in Idaho...they dont exactly encourage visitors out there.

I will also tell you that I have had the opportunity to go on sea trials several times....not intrested. I get plenty of excitement working on them. I can assure you ...plenty!! Aircraft carriers too. Plenty of excitement. Boring and stable is just fine with me now days. A cold drink and my Lazy Boy recliner is just fine. Those in these rooms who have spent time in uniform and or had some close calls can attest to the attraction of a Lazy Boy recliner and the stability of boring. This next war..I will be glad to sit home with the women and kids.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by darksided
The Indian Navy Akula's are still rumors, but mostly speculated to be a sure thing. The Indian Navy is making a lot of headway in blue ocean deployments, whether it was the 4 ship group that not only tracked Chinese Sovermenny class deliveries but also made a worthy appearance outside Lebanon for evacuations this summer, to the eastern pacific excursions to monitor Australian peacekeepers in East Timor. Nuclear power will help these types of Surface Group deployments, because their Kilo's, while formidable, aren't really built for long patrols.

Yep.. rumors they are, but for very obvious reasons, the sale/purchase of nuclear subs, is not something either the seller or buyer would want out in the open. It would obviously go down badly with members of the NSG who are to decide whether India should be allowed access to nuclear fuel w/o being a member of the NPT.
It is unsure whether the Akula II leases are precursors to final purchases or training environments for IN sailors that will man the indigenous SSN(ATV) when it is deployed.
The indigenous SSN has reached the stage where the minaturised reactor has finished most of the dry dock testing and now is mostly ready to be tested within the SSN chassis.

I am not current on the Indian Navy Scorpene purchase, but as of March 06 I thought I saw somewhere they were looking for AIP on their last three Scorpene's, specifically the MESMA AIP system used in the Agosta 90B PN.

True, the MESMA option is open to India, and infact it looks like India will take this for 3 subs.

I imagine 3-4 knots would be hard to stomach against the IN, which can field multiple fast moving surface action strike groups that would be nearly impossible to run down without giving away the subs position. Think about it, at 4 knots it takes almost 8 days to go from Karachi, Pakistan to Panaji, India. That would be hard to stomach during a shooting war, but the PN captain would have to do it if he wants to have enough power to remain underwater, unheard, and blockade that port under stealth. As you can see, the tactical challanges don't get easier with AIP, but with patience, the tactical options can be more flexible than their Diesel Electric counterpart.

Carrying out a raid on Indian ports by any PN asset, submarine or not, would be a feat in itself, but thats not my primary concern.
My concern is that the IN probably loses the unquestioned ability to blockade Pakistan by sea in the event that such action is required. W/o AIP I doubt the PN or PAF would be able to do much to prevent a blockade even with their Mirage III/Orion
Harpoon arsenal.
This is simply because the entire Pakistani coastline(and bases within) come under the eye of Indian surveillance and quick response assets;namely MiG21 interceptor bases along the Gujarat coastline for immediate rapid response and Phalcon AWACS(a probable deployment zone).
Note the MiG21 interceptor bases have shown recent rapid response by downing a PAF Atlantique. Link
AIP subs is something that a naval blockade cannot be guaraanteed safety against.

Although from what I've read here, a heavy deep strike bombardment of all PN ports with Jaguar IM fighter-bombers would make it difficult for these AIP subs to return to port for supplies.
But, I wonder; can such bombardment be effective to the extent that subs CANNOT depend on ports for replinishments.

BTW, that last statement regarding tactical use of conventional submarines is why I think India wants Akula's. There is something to be said about a sub that can stay underwater for as long as their is food for the crew, and weapons to deploy.
[edit on 24-10-2006 by darksided]

The reason India wants SSNs is probably to strengthen sub support for surface fleets throughout the entire Indian Ocean, and make a strategic footprint in ASEAN/Pacific.

btw, Why would a Yuan be more 'strategic' than its AIP counterparts? Are you talking about political overtones?

When you make a strike plan like this ..yes it is important to hit the piers and supply stores for a ship/boat like this.

I suggest that also what should be hit are the drydocking facilitys or if they have them ...floating drydocks. Extensive repairs are impossible without docking ability. This reduces by a great amount not only the readyness of ones navy but the ability to do extensive repairs of those ships which survive the initial attacks.
I have often wondered how far it would have set us back if the Japanese would have had the presence of mind to severely attack the shipard and drydocking facilitys in Pearl Harbor. I think this was a oversight on thier part. They must have worked feverishly to get the ships repaired and out of the docks after December 7,1941. The next nearest available drydocks were on the west coast of the US.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I seem to remember we have something similar to cutthroat but on a smaller scale. I seem to remember it is run by Qinetiq down on the south coast somewhere.

Originally posted by mikesingh
Lol!! The US Navy has gone overboard with their threat perceptions!!
They've really hit the panic button!!

That is because their bluffing to keep the American populace in a state of fear and unease over foreign hostilities and terrorist threats.

If the American populace is no longer in complete fear of the terrorists, thanks to our President for ramming it down our throats on TV/Radio at every single speech he gives, we'd no longer support our government, and there'd be street protests/riots.

Why? because thats the glue that keeps this charade together, terror. The Bush Admin, The Iraq War, the Strategic Alliances with Israel(unofficial) and Taiwan/South Korea/Japan are all help together by fear and terror.

N.K. did a piddly nuclear test to get some attention because they're getting bullied at the six-party talks and can't get any beneficial negotiations out of them. North Korea is saying "we want to talk on our terms, and if you refuse, we'll just continue our program for self defense". All America has to do to stop N.K. from ever testing another nuke is simple.. talk to the North Koreans unilaterally as they've been requesting from the get-go.

Anyways, as long as the possibility of a terror attack and fear is seeded throughout the air, the American people will continue to be scared, and continue to think they need a Hawkish President to protect them from all these delusions of grandeur that he, the President, has aggressively promoted as being the reality on the World Stage. Well let me tell you, everyone has motives, even the Koreans, and surprisingly its not to nuke anyone. It's to get everyone off their back so that they can recieve aid from the international community as well as participate in trade to better their terrible economic situation. That economic situation is only partly Pyongyang's fault; America bears some responsibility for lacing up North Koreas' shoes with sanctions ever since the Korean War!

Originally posted by runetang
That economic situation is only partly Pyongyang's fault; America bears some responsibility for lacing up North Koreas' shoes with sanctions ever since the Korean War!

I agree. We should have nuked them in 1952.

North Korea has no interest in getting along peacefully with the rest of the world. Their only purpose in getting nuclear weapons is so that they can threaten South Korea, Japan and other Asian countries if they don't get their own way. I've said before that North Korea is like a gangbanger that just found a gun. They are waving it around and proclaiming how bad they are and how you shouldn't mess with them. As far as subs go, a bass boat with a fish finder and some hand grenades would eliminate North Korea's.

Thanks Orangetom,

The mystery thread looks pretty cool, will check it out. I agree better leave the secrets of the Cutthroat in Idaho. Don't want to run into whome ever gaurds the secure location.

I too am more interested in stability and peace and quiet. Lazyboys work great for me too. The first thing I want to do when I get home from work is recline. Life can be too stressful as it is and one should take advantage of every opportunity to idledown.

ch1466,

I would debate with you, but I don't think you are informed enough to hold a useful debate. Many of your comments are wild opinion without basis of merit or citation. When the Canadians, British, Australians, French, and Japanese all speak highly of US Navy efforts regarding unmanned vehicle development and ADS development for ASW, to the point they are either partners or potential buyers in the programs, it certainly says a lot about the potential. Your discussion on communications is also uninformed, if you did your research you would realize that satelitte is the backup method for datalink relay, the primary vehicle is VTUAVs.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
btw, Why would a Yuan be more 'strategic' than its AIP counterparts? Are you talking about political overtones?

Exactly.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I have often wondered how far it would have set us back if the Japanese would have had the presence of mind to severely attack the shipard and drydocking facilitys in Pearl Harbor.

Well if they hit the oil farm ( which was on the side of a mountain no less) or the dry docks they would have IMO done more harm than they ended up doing by bombing battleships that were largely useless anyways and may have very well forced the US navy to retreat to the American west coast which means the war would have gone very very differently. That's not to say that the American victory in the Pacific were a given to start with and taking this into account a quick victory in the Pacific would have been far more unlikelier than it ended up being. One can only hazard a guess as to how this would have changed the outcome of the second world war...

I think this was a oversight on thier part.

Actually the original plan called for a more strategic strike if the forces at pearl were not observed to be alert but since only the flight leader had a radio he could only signal with flare gun which is what he did when he observed a few sections breaking formation.. When they did not notice he had to fire again which happened , two flares, to be the agreed command (which everyone else saw) that the PH were alerted and that they had to strike the main targets with everything they had to make sure their invasion of the South Pacific could not be endangered... Whoever said communication is not critical!

They must have worked feverishly to get the ships repaired and out of the docks after December 7,1941. The next nearest available drydocks were on the west coast of the US.

As far as i know they spent the first few weeks trying to get the survivors out of sunken ships and there was even talk of a Japanese invasion.

Anyways!

Stellar

[edit on 26-10-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I agree. We should have nuked them in 1952.

There would have been no North or South Korea had the US and allies allowed the country to hold democratic elections. It did not because the man it sponsored into command of the South would have lost by miles.

North Korea has no interest in getting along peacefully with the rest of the world.

North Korea has no interest in being destroyed by the west so they make sure that they are not defenseless like they were before or like the Vietnamese or the Iraqi's or most of the people the US chooses to attack. First rule of empire making is to show your power by smashing the weak and defenseless who steps out of line by force; other means ( election rigging and assasination of opposition leaders) can be used in more progressive and well armed countries.

Their only purpose in getting nuclear weapons is so that they can threaten South Korea, Japan and other Asian countries if they don't get their own way.

The other countries in the region are not afraid of North Korea ( well not anywhere as much as those in the west who have nothing to fear) as they know very well that North Korea is all bluster and will only fight to survive when pressed or invaded.

I've said before that North Korea is like a gangbanger that just found a gun. They are waving it around and proclaiming how bad they are and how you shouldn't mess with them.

So why not just leave them alone and let the nations around them sort them out? The South Koreans are MORE than able to stand their man and hold back the North had it tried anything as stupid as attack the South. The Japanese can smash them and so can China; If Norkia ( thanks CH) attacks anyone the retaliation they will suffer will result in them either being destroyed or starved to death.

As far as subs go, a bass boat with a fish finder and some hand grenades would eliminate North Korea's.

I don't think it will be all that easy but i hope no one gets to find out; a animal in a corner is a dangerous thing especially when it has nuclear weapons.

Stellar

[edit on 26-10-2006 by StellarX]

Darksided,

>>
I would debate with you, but I don't think you are informed enough to hold a useful debate.
>>

Quite the opposite, I'm better informed than 90% of the rest of the non rah-rah-USN moohing crowd here and that scares you.

>>
Many of your comments are wild opinion without basis of merit or citation.
>>

Which is the same thing as saying if you're not a part of 'the club' we will put our hands over our heards and yell "NAANANANANANANNANA" as loud as possible while trying not to lip read.

>>
When the Canadians, British, Australians, French, and Japanese all speak highly of US Navy efforts regarding unmanned vehicle development and ADS development for ASW, to the point they are either partners or potential buyers in the programs, it certainly says a lot about the potential.
>>

Never ask those sitting at the beggars table their opinion of the king's benevolence or even sanity. Mind you, anything you are willing to whore to the world makes you less believable as being 'impressed with' for your own defense anyway.

>>
Your discussion on communications is also uninformed, if you did your research you would realize that satelitte is the backup method for datalink relay, the primary vehicle is VTUAVs.
>>

'Provide the citation'. _I Did_. And 30-80km is not what one would suggest to be viable for global satcomms. Indeed, _it doesn't matter_ because if you have to send in a MAJOR PLATFORM ASSET to deploy this rinky dink midget submarine clone over distances less than a quarter that of the higher end AShM which can kill same; you have lost all perspective as to the nature of 'value' and utility (expendability) in the ways of destroyer/frigate warfare.

Stalin was right. You don't win wars by counting the number of dead before you lose. You win by counting the number of losses you can sustain and still win. Such is the nature of robotic warfare. Such is the STUPIDITY of the USN in risking 250 million or 2 billion or FIVE billion dollar assets to systems which are individually worth less than a 100th their value. And thus likely to be twice as dense.

And lastly, to the idiot who said otherwise, 'a citation' of merit-

>>
CAPTOR Mine Mk 60

The CAPTOR (enCAPsulated TORpedo) Mine Mk 60 is a 2,000-pound, deep-water moored mine. It is the U.S. Navy's principal antisubmarine mine; it can be laid by an aircraft, submarine, or surface ship. CAPTOR acoustically detects submarines while ignoring surface ships. Upon detection of a target, the mine launches an acoustic homing Torpedo Mk 46 Mod 6. When laid, the mine sinks to a pre-set depth where the case and anchor separate. The case remains at the selected depth while the anchor continues sinking to the bottom. The mine arms itself at a pre-set time. Should the case rise above the pre-set depth, the case will scuttle. Scuttling will also occur on sterilization. CAPTOR will be completely removed from the inventory by FY02.
>>

www.exwar.org...

As I recall, they announced the retirement sometime in 1997-98. But then again what's memory when you have hush-now-baby fools declaring that 'secrecy demands' we devalue the information levels by which we judge the performance of our own defenders. How ironic that they will sell this # to foreigners to further the 'hot rod club' escalation of technology for their own perpetuation of the game-as-league.

But not comment honestly about how much this tech does to change the amount of money we need to give them for existing assets, force structure and warfighter doctrines which should ALL change relative to the advancement, if it's done well.

All in the purile pursuit of what is always simply: Mo Money.

Only Gullible Moronic Imbeciles living in the gutter of a 'service economy' would think otherwise.

NOTHING CHANGES because you trust someone who has already admitted that they will lie by omission to 'maintain security'.

It is up to YOU to realize the /their/ (job) 'security' has NOTHING to do with OUR national one. Because they, like any other protected union job are employed strictly to stay that way.

As I said at the beginning of this farce. Thems who cannot truly talk openly don't. Because they are contractually bound to hidden laws which let the government dictatorially punish them as traitors for the slightest Damoclean slip.

Everyone else claiming to know better are just free COINTELPRO disinformation artists.

If you fail to USE YOUR MIND to develop common sense insight to defeat their wool-over-eyes MIC conspiracy. You have no right to loh like cattle when they are done robbing this planet in pursuit of 'defense' against a war we cannot afford to fight let alone win. This is a confidence game which makes the Mafia look like freakin' nuns.


KPl.


P.S. The CAPTOR was never a harbor closer. We used fast bottomlay influence systems like Quickstrike/Destructor and mobile torpedo based shoot-in technology for that. CAPTOR was a blue water system designed to interdict passage lanes well out to sea from an target terminal defenses.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by ch1466]

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Thanks Orangetom,

The mystery thread looks pretty cool, will check it out. I agree better leave the secrets of the Cutthroat in Idaho. Don't want to run into whome ever gaurds the secure location.

I too am more interested in stability and peace and quiet. Lazyboys work great for me too. The first thing I want to do when I get home from work is recline. Life can be too stressful as it is and one should take advantage of every opportunity to idledown.

Yeah....LazyBoy recliner..they sure put the right name on it!!

Orangetom

Anyone know what kind of mines they sowed in the harbors down in Nicaragua back in the days of the Sandanistas?? As I recall our Congress was so furious over this they made the Navy remove them.
Same thing with mining the harbors in Hanoi. The Congress wanted no part of this though it would have been a very effecient way of limiting our losses due to weaponry arriving in country on ships.
My initial impression of this performance by Congress is that they want a conflict to lengthen and be inefficient ...to continue ...rather than end when they do this and our Congress has been involved in this many times. TO the resultant loss of some of our finest blood for their cheap politics.
It just seems that modern mining would be very efficient in closing a harbor.

Ive seen the Navy Sea Stallions towing the

towing the sled across the bay on the Norfolk side.

Sorry about the post ..getting used to a new laptop. Its a bit more cramped than my desktop.

Orangetom