Goodbye New York or "Nuclear Jihad"

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
.america is not perfect..but it is the MOST fair country this world has, with the possible exception of some small european countries... i name a few countries far more deserving of terorism than america... nigeria, saudi arabia, israel, palestine, iraq, iran, russia, somalia, cuba, colombia, most african countries really, in fact most countries are guilty of far worse atrocitoies... just check out amnesty internationals webpage if you will allow yourself to be taught out of your ignorance. www.amnesty.org. our big blotch in the world opinion is that we execute criminals. A good childhood friend got executed a few years ago... and friend or not... he deserved to roast (actually he was injected and fell to a long sleep) big woop... capital punishment it is a little better than gassing innocent children.

so killing over 8 million civilians since ww2 is not worse? only russia surpasses america at 50 million(but not foreign countries), nigeria, saudi arabia, israel, palestine, iraq, iran, somalia, cuba, colombia, guess what half of those are/were funded and given weapons by guess who, america and the other half were mistreated by america or betrayed by it since the 50's

well last time i checked, they are trained like one, are funded like one, and operate likw one.

Check again
They train as terrorists, not military.
They are NOT funded like a military. They are funded by religious extremists and Bin Ladens trust fund.
They do NOT operate like a military either. When was the last time a country's military used commercial jets as weapons? How about a car/truck bomb?

As I said, check again.
I'll make it easy for you, here:
www.unhchr.ch...

Originally posted by Fry2

well last time i checked, they are trained like one, are funded like one, and operate likw one.

Check again
They train as terrorists, not military.
They are NOT funded like a military. They are funded by religious extremists and Bin Ladens trust fund.
They do NOT operate like a military either. When was the last time a country's military used commercial jets as weapons? How about a car/truck bomb?

As I said, check again.
I'll make it easy for you, here:
www.unhchr.ch...

well one that was desperate and too weak to take on directly, a name or tactic thats unconventional dont alter the purpose, what makes them non-combatant? thats what youre saying isnt it?

I have a very bad feeling something very major is about to happen soon. I don't know what it is but my gut instinct tells me something is definatly wrong.

lol my tv is also going nuts

tons of static and #

but I remember the night before 9/11 I had a dream that I was running out of a building cause it was exploding.



I know what you all are thinking. He's nuts even for ATS. Your free to think anything you want, but the fact of the matter is my inner tuition usually is right about fearful events to come.

I just home I am wrong

First of all the WTC attack WAS a terrorist attack.
1) it was a civilian workplace with no military value
2) was attacked by a militia that is neither a confirmed military organization and is not affiliated with a government.
3) There was no Declaration of War before the attack (Even japan sent out a declaration of war three hours before the pearl harbor attack.)

Reasons why the Taliban and Al Queida are terrorist organizations and not a military group.

1) Is a non-recognized group of fighters that are not designated with a country and therefore are not a military.
2) Because they are not a military they do not abide by the Rules of Engagement
3) do not wear uniforms-believe it or not you MUST have a uniform (even just a badge) to be considered a military, otherwise you are breaking ROE and are just a terrorist organization.
4) are not trained in Military tactics but instead are trained in Terrorist tactics

You cannot deny the facts, sorry.

No, actually. What I am saying is that they do NOT follow the geneva convention or any other customs of war.

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

I would say that nearly 3000 people being murdered/mutilated/burned to death indiscriminately is covered by this one.

(b) Taking of hostages;

They train to do this!

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Daniel Pearl anyone?

i said it was wrong for either side to kill period, im not trying to justify al qaida at all, but im pointing to the fact it was brought on by the U.S actions, facts about war convention and other nations, groups, etc are beside the point, like everything, every bad action on others leads to worse action on you, if youre a person, country or whatever it applies.

Originally posted by Fry2
No, actually. What I am saying is that they do NOT follow the geneva convention or any other customs of war.

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

I would say that nearly 3000 people being murdered/mutilated/burned to death indiscriminately is covered by this one.

so the 30,000 in iraq that were civiians, mutilated/burned to death are any more right?

(b) Taking of hostages;

They train to do this!

so, im only saying our actions arent any better.

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Daniel Pearl anyone?

guantanimo bay, thousands held with no sentence, or some executed with no trial....

hey mister "name here". where do you get your stats? and consider the size of our country and the population. we are the nicest big guy around... would you rather the african nations decide the policy for the world... come on man.. america ain't perfect but were hells bells better than the last great democracy (Roman empire). and Al Smegma is not a military group, they are a group of insane ignorant stupid men who listen instead of read. are we going to be held to the judgements of people such as them, or for that matter people such as you, who refuse to read. Instead you spew off stats that are impossible to prove... you can obviously read? we kill they kill we all kill, but we kill military not children. did you not watch the war? we had very little non military death at our hands considering the destruction we left. and yeah we screwed up Iraq... but way less so than saddam. now they have a hope for a future. We may have gotten involved with the worlds troubles but rarely are they worse off for it. and once again we are not perfect but we are the closest to it.

I don't buy into that. As long as these fundamentalists exist they will want to kill the infidels(us). This has nothing to do with some kind of "revenge" for Americas actions. It was a direct attack against our culture, financial strength and tolerance of religious diversity.
Too F-ing bad for them but I'm not moving into a cave and bowing to the east for prayer whenever someone on a hilltop starts shreiking.

I still would like to know how you consider the WTC as a valid military target. By your logic we should have levelled Baghdad with carpet bombing

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
hey mister "name here". where do you get your stats? and consider the size of our country and the population. we are the nicest big guy around... would you rather the african nations decide the policy for the world... come on man.. america ain't perfect but were hells bells better than the last great democracy (Roman empire). and Al Smegma is not a military group, they are a group of insane ignorant stupid men who listen instead of read. are we going to be held to the judgements of people such as them, or for that matter people such as you, who refuse to read. Instead you spew off stats that are impossible to prove... you can obviously read? we kill they kill we all kill, but we kill military not children. did you not watch the war? we had very little non military death at our hands considering the destruction we left. and yeah we screwed up Iraq... but way less so than saddam. now they have a hope for a future. We may have gotten involved with the worlds troubles but rarely are they worse off for it. and once again we are not perfect but we are the closest to it.

i know its not perfect, but the actions and policy could be better quite easily, not everything is bad but the things that are have to be repent some how just like anything else, you steal, you go to jail, you kill, youre executed, you hit someone, they hit you, am i right? if its wrong is beside the point, thats just how it is.
like i said, both sides are in the wrong no matter who thinks either is right or not.

so the 30,000 in iraq that were civiians, mutilated/burned to death are any more right?

Where did you get this figure? Even if true, the regime was given warning and a chance to avoid the war. Not so on 9/11.

so, im only saying our actions arent any better.

Such as?

guantanimo bay, thousands held with no sentence, or some executed with no trial....

Illegal combatants, see the Geneva convention again.
None have been executed!
How many Iraqi soldiers were sent to Gitmo? 0!

Stop relying on your personal version of reality and open your eyes. As has been said, America is not perfect and I won't argue that. We are a hell of a lot better than many other countries in the world, however.

Originally posted by Fry2
I don't buy into that. As long as these fundamentalists exist they will want to kill the infidels(us). This has nothing to do with some kind of "revenge" for Americas actions. It was a direct attack against our culture, financial strength and tolerance of religious diversity.
Too F-ing bad for them but I'm not moving into a cave and bowing to the east for prayer whenever someone on a hilltop starts shreiking.

I still would like to know how you consider the WTC as a valid military target. By your logic we should have levelled Baghdad with carpet bombing

no, by my logic they destroyed iraqs commercial infrastructure, most commercial buildings are communication structures, most diplomatic were palaces, were these not bombed?

Actually, we did not take out Iraqs commercial infrastructure. We were protecting it. (Oil fields)
Yes, we took out palaces and other Government buildings per the rules of war.
We did NOT target office buildings full of lawyers, stock brokers and other civilian staff.

Iraq is far off topic anyway. The topic is about terrorists and Jihad. I don't consider the Iraqi soldiers as terrorists as they did abide by the rules. They actually deserve some respect considering what they faced.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
They should hope that they never use a nuke on us. If they think us going into a beserker and start bombing the hell out of random countries is bad (Afghanistan, Iraq...etc) watch what happens when they nuke us and give us a right to arm our 175,000+ Multi-nuclear warhead arsenal and fire some at them...

a nuke would only but wound our country slightly. Their nukes would probably be dirty bombs and such, nothing like what the US has. If they nuked us the middle east would be vaporized three hours later, I guarentee it....but as the president said in Austin powers 2: "...Would anybody miss it?"

exactly

[Edited on 9-19-2003 by WolfofWar]

175,000 you sure on that number? i thinks its mor along the lines of 6000-7000 at most. any ways i think we should fight fire with fire when it comes to this.

8000 are Registered, all of which are multi-warhead nukes which have 8 nukes per one warhead all capable of hitting 8 different targets.

we have 64,000 Known Registered nukes ( 1 missle and 8 nukes in each missle) but there are "illegal" backup supplies of alot more that are safeguarded and kept secret. 175,000 is a realistic number as even today we are secretly still making tactical mutli-warhead nuclear weapons, just in secret.

Either way we probably have enough to make Israel an island if you catch my drift

[Edited on 9-19-2003 by WolfofWar]

good point, lets stick to the terrorists... not iraq.. except for the few angry civilians that think car bombing is a good method for making a point. But at least they are striking at the military. that is what we pay the military for. BTW "namehere" how much does the governent of the Al smegma pay there "soldiers" they dont and there is no respective governent to negotiate with. Just a bunch of ignorant radicals sitting in caves wishing they could make america hurt. Why do they hate us? for the reasons that the others have mentioned. They also hate us because they think that we are the same as israel...AND THEY HATE ISRAEL big time. I would have to say we do give them fuel for the fire with our policy in the mid east, but how does that give them the right to kill innocent women and children (and even lawyers). They don't have a value on life in those countrys so they think so little of killing us. If they would do what afrika and other 3rd world nations are doing then they would be educating themselves to improve ther own situation. One thought though. You say we are the problem... perhaps we should cut funding and aid to the palestinians and Israel. Maybe we should get out of the middle east. But would things really be better. Look at history closely my friend... they have been fighting with each other since last century. By our involvment we made things better... but now they have a big great country to blame for all there problems that remain... so they think america is a great satan. Do you know what the radical clerics tell the followers in order for them to want to be a terrorist?... the truth ain't good enough and they don't bother with it. to them.. We eat our children and kill moslem people because we dont want to allow the "true righteous" to live. If the radicals knew our history and how tolerant we were of other beliefs, and how good we are to the weakest links in America. They maybe wouldn't like us still, but they wouldn't want to blow us up either.