S-4 Papoose Mountain

Would it be possible to use Google Maping to take some pictures of Papoose Mountain? There's pictures of Groom Lake all over the place, but we need to find S-1 through S-9. Each of the 9 sites are run by different DOD groups.

Try to find S-4 and the hanger doors built into the base of Papoose Mountain. I think S-4 Papoose Mountain is located approx 15 SW of Groom Lake. Good Luck, I don't know how to use Google Maping.

I found the coordinates for Papoose Mountain:


37.1814 N / -115.8419 W

371053 LAT / 1155031 LON

img268.imageshack.us...

(compliments of anorwegianguy1972)





[edit on 9-9-2005 by meshuggah1324]

[edit on 9-9-2005 by meshuggah1324]

[edit on 9-9-2005 by meshuggah1324]

[edit on 9-9-2005 by meshuggah1324]

Papoose Dry Lake Bed is right under A51. You can't see anything there though. Infact, you can't see anything at Papoose Lake even when you're looking right at it from the nearby mountains.

In the course of the Area 51 project here at ATS (see the research forum) It became apparent that there is nothing at S-4 or Papose Lake. The testamony from Greenpeace activists who walked across it was the tip of the iceberg. Underground? Look at my conclutions in the research thread.

That being said, I have always wanted a look at the Groom Range. It seems far more likely that there is something hidden in that range. Its big and we may not be able to see anything with comercial imagery.

S-4 im still not sure about this base at all. hmmmm

Originally posted by meshuggah1324
I found the coordinates for Papoose Mountain:
37.1814 N / -115.8419 W

You're seeing the antenna complex at the top of
Papoose Mountain. Papoose lake, the alleged site
of the mythical S-4 lab, is roughly 6
miles south of there.

Googlemaps for papoose lk are not as recent or
detailed as they are for Groom.

www.serve.com...

Google around for S-4 and you'll find plenty of other
aerial and mtn top photos and descriptions from people
who have hiked there (and not gotten caught).


Sarge

Yuk. Your suggesting Papose Lake does not exist? If that's what your suggesting I suppose a 737 does not fly in and out of Groom Lake several times a day either.

Or does A51 exist but 15 miles south east S4 does not? Come on Fred T, is it not possible your dealing with an area that your extreme expertise isn't extreme expertise in this case and area?

Dallas

EDIT: another bad spelling -- and I may not have yet spelled it right?

[edit on 11-9-2005 by Dallas]

He's not saying Papoose Lake doesn't exist, he's saying that Area S-4 doesn't exist there.

Don't think many Members at ATS has as much respect for Fred T than I, but papoose/S4 or whatever frame one wants after all this time an accounts from Burisch, Lazar and others.. then comes our highly respected Fred T and says no it does not exist. Go-Figure? I'm a we-bit devastated as it's from Fred T.

So I speak up, and something I don't want to do but I have to. And that's all I have to say about this.

Dallas

I don't doubt Lazar and the others, but by looking at Papoose Lake from satellite pictures and even from the nearby hills, you can see absolutely nothing there. Maybe they moved it? Maybe Lazar was taken somewhere else that looked like Papoose Lake so that when he told people about it he'd be telling them the wrong spot.
I really don't know.

Originally posted by Nventual
...Maybe Lazar was taken somewhere else that looked like Papoose Lake so that when he told people about it he'd be telling them the wrong spot.
....

Maybe. Good idea, though!

I've been told by Robert Collins that this satellite photo of some small buildings was used as a helicopter landing area for special missions. There are two roads near by but not in this picture. Collins says he knows a guy named Gene who worked there.

img268.imageshack.us...

This is a Google satellite image with Papoose Mountain coordinates I found.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by meshuggah1324]

Originally posted by meshuggah1324
I've been told by Robert Collins that this satellite photo of some small buildings was used as a helicopter landing area for special missions. There are two roads near by but not in this picture. Collins says he knows a guy named Gene who worked there.

img268.imageshack.us...

It's an antenna installation. You think they'd put some kind
of secret base on the top of a mountain that's visible
from public land?

Mesh, I want to give you every benefit of the doubt. I don't think
you're lying or anything like that. You seem like a nice kid. And I
appreciate that you're curious and question things. And you have
every right in the world to believe whatever you believe.

But look at all of this in a realistic sense, if you can. You keep
quoting "some guy that knew another guy" who allegedly
violated national security by telling someone else about top
secret stuff. Does that kind of "evidence" really seem anywhere
near believable? The "proof" you tend to offer on things
just plain doesn't stand the test of common sense.
It's on the level of a National Inquirer tabloid.

Nothing personal, buddy. But I really don't think you're
looking at things with any kind of objective or reasonable
viewpoint.

Sarge

Originally posted by Dallas
Yuk. Your suggesting Papose Lake does not exist? If that's what your suggesting I suppose a 737 does not fly in and out of Groom Lake several times a day either.

Dallas,

The Janet 737 fly into Groom and not Papoose Lake.

The S4 Mythology arouse out of Lazars bogus claims which we can go into length on another thread if desired.

From a post I made on 8/9/04

Guys take a look at Papoose Lake AKA S-4 from the satelite shots of the area. There is nothing there. Period.. One dirt road, and thats about it. If there was a huge underground facility there would be signs of it. Not to mention greenpeace protestors tried to infiltrate the Nevada Test Site and walked across the dry lake bed there before getting caught. Saw nothing but desert and scrub brush.......

Im not saying there are not underground bases there, but based on the info the Area 51 team has dug up so far (pun intended) it does not seem likely. Somewere perhaps in the Nellis Range, but not here.

Okay so you actual testamony from several members of Greenpeace who infiltrated the Nellis Range trying to sneak into the Nevada Test Center who walked directly across the lake and near the Range and say nothing but scrub brush and a few snakes.

Using open source materials as we all have too I have spent alot of time looking at the base

Went to the USGS Office In Mnlo Park CA to pull the 7.5 minute maps for the Groom lake Area yesterday. FYI, USGS is the US Geological Survey, among other things they produce topagraphic maps for all of the US. They can be used for backpacking etc. The 7.5 minute series is taken by plane and can show quite a bit of terrain detail. Each Quad is (I think) the time it takes the plane to travel 7.5 minutes)

I got the
Castle Spring Quadrangle
Groom Range NE
Groom Range SE
Groom Range SW
Groom Mine
Groom Mine NW

Nothing Earthshaking (I did not expect anything) The Lakebed itself is lables as Groom Lake and right below Nevada Test Site which makes sence. Therse is a restricted area box that only crosses the Northern 20% of the lake. But the who area is restricted so who knows. All of the topos were last renewed from 1983-1989. However the origional aerial photos were taken in 1968. The only thing intersting about that is looking at the other parts of nevada, the surveys are only 5-10 years old max. The only other interesting item is that one of the surrounding series of Quads is called "Fallout Hills" not where I want to vacation

Okay Ive finsihed looking at the USGS maps for the area: I never figured this would come to much, but it was intersting to scope out the terrain.

Lake is about 4444 feet above sea level. Its really flat.
North 4444
WNW 4439
E 4444

Thats only 5 feet of change.

The lake measures 3 miles at its wides e-w point
about 4 miles at its n - s point

4/5's of the lake is in a restricted access box labled Nevada Test Center. The Northern 20% were the base is is in the Nellis range. The lake itself is called 'Groom lake" Groom Peak is at 5714 feet. Not too much higher in the range itself. The higest point in the quad was 6200. Groom range is the mountains you see in all the pics.

NNW There is a small mountain peak that is 1/4 mile from the lakebed. Its about 1/2 mile long and peaks at anbout 4728. Or about 340 feet above the lake. The rest of the range to the north gradually sloopes up over about 1.5 miles north untill it starts getting steep.

Multiple dirt roads intersect the lake (6) however, there is no road around its circumference.

Located NNE about 3-4 miles there is a large concentration of mines in a valley in the groom range. The labled mines include Black Metal Mine, and Groom Mine and about five sites labled as "prospects"

No buildings, powelines or airtrips noted.

Only 1 dirt road to 'S4" and Papoose lake nor is there ANY evidence of underground facilites or support needed for them in any way shape or form. What makes me think I figured out the underground base thing you ask? While written for the Area 51 Research Group it applieed to the ficticious S4 base as well.

Having done some research into the topic, talked to our resident mining engineer (my dad) looked at mining projects both in literature and first hand (more on that later) I have come to a conclution about the possibility that a large underground base exists specificaly at the Area 51 Complex.

Putting on my best Don Corleone Voice "I must say no to you, and I will give you my reasons"

1) The biggest question is what to do about the "muck" and derbits that a huge underground complex would entail.

Yesterday I spent part of the day at the Niebaum-Coppola Winery. We have "Rubicon" level membership there (took 4 years on a wait list) to pick up a few bottles of wine. One of the recent projects has involved tunnling into the mountain side to create caves to age their flagship wine "Rubicon" (If you can find it, the 1997 and the 99 are pretty kick ass). The project did not take a huge amount of time but the resulting muck created alot of headaches. I was talking to one of the staff at the winery and came away with a few points. First, the costs of hauling away the muck was almost the same as carving the tunnell itself. Disposal was an issue, but for some reason the staff member did not want to discuss that. The hauling away of the muck did considerable damage to the roadbed. The point of this other than getting to sample some good wine is that the waste created is a huge problem for public disposal let alone covert. Furthermore, the base would need to be constructed and the muck disposed of in a manner that would not draw the attention of the public, people not cleared for the project, spy and commerical satelites etc. The other recent tunnling project is Bostons "Big Dig" which required huge amount of manpower and disposal of the muck also gnerated problems. They backfilled in an area to create an island. This option would not be avalible to someone building a covert base.

Now with that in light lets consider the circumstances of Groom lake:

1) Site, somewhat covert, however since the early 80' untill the AF annexed all of the surrounding mountains, one was able to directly obsever the base from a distance. None of the reports from area 51 observers ie. Glen Cambell, never talk about any signs of mining or digging activity at the base (at least not in large scale). In the mid 90's the advent of both declassified Soviet spy satelites and commerical satelites do not reveal any huge derbit fields anywere near the base. Nor does it show any signifigant construction of hardened dirt roads that would allow big trucks to move the muck soemwere else on the Nellis Range.
That leaves the period of the 50' and the 60' when the base had not attracted any attention. We do have the Soviet Satelite shot of Groom lake in the 60's that shows a much smaller base, but again no indication of large sacle mining or digging activity. GooseUK's suggestion of usuing old mines has alot of merit and the possibilities are there. This hypotisis is directly supported by Richard Sauder's book "Underwater and Underground Bases" However, even he indicates that the best area for this is under Stripmines both active and inactive. they are huge areas, usually have underlying solid rick, and covert tunneling can be acomplished with the muck blended into overall mining operations. These complexes are HUGE. Last november, we spent 2 weeks driving through the SW of the US. Came across a strip mine in Arizona and it went on for mines and miles. You could easily conceal a miliraty base under the strip mine itself with no problem. However, none of the shots of the base show a strip mine old or new. We know from the USGS maps that there are numerous mines and claims dotting the area. However, most of these are in the groom range. not on the lakebed itself. As I pointed out, there is no indication past or presence of a hardened dirt roadway that would allow transportation of the Muck to dump them in the mine. Part of my november trip involved alot of off roading in death valley and near Josua Tree. We cam across numerous abandoned mines. The entrances were really tight and would involve alot of work to get the muck down there. These guys want these project to involve the minimum amout of people possible.

One area I really want to see a shot of is the Groom Mountain Range that is north of the lake bed. A dirt road cuts through it and that is the loaction of most of the mines on the groom mine Quad (the map the base is on) In every shot of the area, it is impossible to see the range from overhead.

If there is an underground componet to the base, I will put money that there is an istallation located somewere in that range.

2) The giant hanger concealing an elevator. Hanger 18 at Groom was mention in a previous post as possible concealing an elevator. This idea also has merit, however, I submit that this was built for mating ships like the Brilliant Buzzard, or for servicing the Venture Star which may have had a black counterpart. If they are moving ships up from below, would they need such a huge structure?

3) Base Logistics. While I have never claimed to be an imagry analysis from the NRO, I have not seen anything that resembles powerlines or a huge generation plant that would supply the base with power. So were does the base get its power? Nuclear would be a sound option for an underground base. And it would have been easy to construct in the 60's. Also the base is not subject to any US environmental regulations and that gets renewed each year by the president. I have not been able to verify even by rumor of such a plant existing. Underground powerlines would also have given some indication from the overhead imagry. The other issue for deeply buried bases that I picked up from the Saunders book is that due to the amount of heat that deep in the ground, the surrounding rock has to be chilled over a period of a few years prior to habitiation otherwise the equipment and people wont be able to function. The plant also has to have an ongoing cooling operation to maintain working temperatures. Again all of this requires alot of power and infrastructure. Non of the pictures show this.

Text

Seriously if you guys want to take a look at alot of collated information without the usual conjecture adn the like take a look at the Area 51 reaserch group's work that can be found here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lots and lots of facts and historical information, even had a picture of Papoose from the early 1900's but that got deleted


Any other questions?

Hold On! Before you Chew Fred up and spit him out, allow me to speak on his behalf!

The S-4 story is one of the most contaverial and debated secret base stories ever. Remember, S-4 never existed in public lore until the Lazar story broke. The fact is: We cannot Verify Bob Lazar's background one way or the other. I have tried several time, my most recent attempt was two weeks ago when I contacted George Knapp at KLASTV in Las Vegas. MR. Knapp was nice enough to provide me with sone of his notes an information that he had. Even with this info, I couldn't prove conclusively that there was anything to the Lazar story.

Second, During the Groom Lake project, we pulled up geological maps of the area. These maps show that both Groom and Papoose Lakes have a low soil comtent, making it extreemly difficult and expensive to build underground.

Tim

"These maps show that both Groom and Papoose Lakes have a low soil comtent, making it extreemly difficult and expensive to build underground."

Not that expensive considering we have a 30 billion dollar per year black budget. And even though it might be difficult to build underground facilities there, wouldn't they be safer from attack because of the low soil comtent? Also I'm sure you've seen the tunnel machines that turn even the hardest rock into a hot lava like substance...

"These maps show that both Groom and Papoose Lakes have a low soil comtent, making it extreemly difficult and expensive to build underground."

Not that expensive considering we have a 30 billion dollar per year black budget. And even though it might be difficult to build underground facilities there, wouldn't they be safer from attack because of the low soil comtent? Also I'm sure you've seen the tunnel machines that turn even the hardest rock into a hot lava like substance...

Originally posted by meshuggah1324
Not that expensive considering we have a 30 billion dollar per year black budget. And even though it might be difficult to build underground facilities there, wouldn't they be safer from attack because of the low soil comtent? Also I'm sure you've seen the tunnel machines that turn even the hardest rock into a hot lava like substance...

A nuclear power subterrene has yet to be proven despite Richard Saunders best efforts to prove otherwise. The consistency of the ground coupled with the problems with digging I have outlined above leads to the logical conclution.

Also, as Ghost pointed out the whole S4 mythology is based on the ramblings of Bob O' Lazzar who's past, black ops or not, past is a bit much. check out Ghost's thread on that matter if you would like more proof.

Originally posted by FredT
In the course of the Area 51 project here at ATS (see the research forum) It became apparent that there is nothing at S-4 or Papose Lake. The testamony from Greenpeace activists who walked across it was the tip of the iceberg. Underground? Look at my conclutions in the research thread.

The Greenpeace story that's been tossed around on the net has little to no substance, and I've never seen any names attached to it, or actual 'testimony' in any sense of the word.

The archaeologist story however, has actual substance and details about seeing activity at Papoose lake, and lights at night time.

By "archaeologist" I assume you mean Jerry Freeman, the same guy who supposedly discovered a chest full of artifacts of the Death Valley 49ers that later turned out to be a hoax.

www.desertusa.com...

After his Nevada Test Site trip he said he was forced to abandon all his gear, even his cameras so he had not proof of his journey. Why didn't he just take the film out and put it in his pocket?