Godel and the only source of truth GOD

“As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.”
Albert Einstein

If only they put support cables on a free standing structure on the Tower of Babel, that way God or Gravity wouldn’t been able to tear it down. Guess that why Pagan pyramids and triangle are the Devil. One thing that I hated about math is that even you got the answer you had to show your work, like come on, it ain’t rocket science where the journey important then destination.

Dbl post

a reply to: Deetermined

That may very well be, but I call them as I see them.

That's on me.

a reply to: quintessentone

Good question.

When I was very young and still believed, deep down it always felt like a selfish notion.

It felt like I was willing to overlook the cruelty of the OT for the sake of feeling like I was looking out for my soul because who in their right mind would want to face the wrath of such a being?

It can change its mind on a whim based on your behavior, and saying you believe is not enough because it's worse to be lukewarm than apostate.

So what is the difference between lukewarm and 'doing it right'?

I looked at most adults and if I had to guess I'd put them in the first category. Just going through the motions. Not overtly straying (as far as I could tell) but doing juuust enough to be comfortable that at least they 'chose the right option'.

And that is probably 99% of believers out there and if that doesn't make anyone feel guilty then I posit that I investigated my faith while still a child deeper than most.

On top of that, if I was to commit/submit completely I knew I had to look up to such a deity in admiration and wonder.

The God of the Bible I realized, inspired neither such emotions.

It was cruel, vain, vindictive and petty.

It was worship above all else, not seeking to be questioned on what I saw as clearly questionable behavior.

It was coercion coupled with gaslighting.

It was conditional love of the worst kind.

Death followed it throughout the Bible.

I came to see God as a bad manager that blames everyone below him even though he knew it would happen so truly if he existed then what purpose is there in things playing out without any surprises.

Have you ever tried playing chess against yourself?

It's stupid and pointless.

So to answer your question, I protect my 'soul' against what I perceive as a very crude piece of mythology concocted by a warring desert tribe.

There is no way you can get me to agree to sacrifice my son on an altar for your glory.

Even if you meant to stop me at the last moment, the truth of my soul will always be GFYS, a million times over.

To me, your beliefs are psychological imprisonment and I am surprised more people don't see it for how crude and primitive the Abrahamic religions idea of a supreme being truly is.

There's nothing 'holy' or 'spiritual' to such an obvious deranged imbalance between who you are and what you worship.

Shooting the messenger is one of humanity’s sillier foibles,

Yeah. Right. 'The messenger'.

I certainly don't teach my children they are animals, and I'm constantly blown away by their innocence and inner beauty.

There is a purity to them still that no silly preacher can tell me they are born in sin and need to be baptized.

Honestly, when will we mature beyond that ridiculous notion?

I put it to you that people cause more # after they are baptized than anything they did beforehand.

Of course, that's where the 'oops, sorry' prayers come in like that means anything. Believers do wrong things knowing they will apologize for it later on. That's the height of insincerity.

That's you putting your beliefs on hold to act out how you really feel,as if that's something a believer should able to do.

That's exactly how recovering addicts relapse.


Now bear in mind your beliefs created this situation where you now guilt yourself and instead of truly learning from the situation you get to say the 'oops, sorry' prayer until the next time.


There's nothing spiritual about begging for a mulligan,but it sure does keep the masses in check with which I am perfectly fine, I guess.

If you don't have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong and need the threat of rejection by an ultimate being to keep you in check, then by all means go ahead but don't expect me to stand in awe of such 'spirituality'.


For me, that's debasing the whole human experience because we can never truly realize beauty, we can only be told what beauty is.


As for addressing youths folly. Take a look at the Christian world. It's not that impressive, is it?

I see beauty in nature, and in people.

I can understand why you reject God, but how do you feed your soul now?

To use the above quote as a good example, I just saw the beauty in you through that one single sentence.

Perhaps deep down you understand what I'm saying to you.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Deetermined
He's already told you that. Only God's spirit can provide understanding. No man is capable of providing it for anyone.

He can say it but he can't prove that to be true. That is where the thread goes sideways because they are using a strawman argument that works against their own premise.

My problem with people who act like they are clever, is their two cents (the average price of a halfway cogent remark) are worthy exactly the same as my two cents. Oh no, there's that fake imaginary math again. When you have turned copper and zinc to gold, which is more imaginary math because you have to believe in atomic numbers and the ability to count protons, that's something I can invest in. When you tell me "there's no pennies, its all in your mind" you have failed to sell me because you haven't proven anything except a fool and their pennies are easily parted. Take my imaginary money and sell me imaginary salvation coupons!

a reply to: TzarChasm
I'll see your two cents and raise two cents.

Some people don't even want to separate you from your pennies. They will give you a free imaginary salvation coupon because they think it validates theirs.

a reply to: quintessentone

By all means, keep thinking & seeking. What I hoped to illuminate (the futility of argument) is more a plea for everyone to be prepared to agree to disagree. In my humble understanding of Gödel, ALL human logic systems are acts of faith, because they are ALL built upon unprovable Axioms.
Each of us has to believe SOMETHING, so more power to you and everyone else, in whatever you choose (I hope it includes being nice and a decent human being). I hope you find peace in what you choose to believe, but recognize that it is a choice and an act of faith.

re: Spinoza: this sounds suspiciously like Theism to me. I tend to lean in that direction.

re: Einstein: as I understand, a large number of Physicist end up becoming spiritual in one way or another. You can't stare at the beauty of the Universe for too long, before becoming impressed that something is behind it all... even if we may never be able to once and for all PROVE what that something is.

re: the Big Bang. Funny you should bring this one up... the Big Bang is absolutely an act of faith: one that I am not personally impressed with. Science is about forming testable hypotheses, running the tests, and then disproving or provisionally accepting the hypothesis. The Big Bang, by contrast keeps getting the goal posts pushed back every time it fails another prediction... another fudge factor gets tacked on. (Define "Dogma".) The Big Bang theory should be the poster-child of Science Shame... and all invented by an organization with a vested interest in maintaining that a creation-event must have occurred for there to be a Creator. Hmmmm... not suspicious at all... maybe there should be a website dedicated to looking into conspiracies.

Gödel has proven that whatever I believe has no more fundamental validity than what you believe. But believe we must.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
a reply to: Deetermined

You missed the point of the post.

Essentially, Occam’s Razor, and bringing in emotions into a conversation about science (i.e., God) keeps the conversation simpler. Think, math, adding another term to an equation, like going from x^2 to x^3 (or, in the case of God, x^infinty), makes everything overly complicated!

The Bible notwithstanding!

From a math standpoint, you can’t just jump from one supposition to another without qualifying it with “if THIS is true, then ..,”

That is formal math. Which is the nexus of this post.

So, based on your original post, the world's lack of "sophistication" and knowledge means that every theory is moot, so why bring philosophical logic into it?

a reply to: TzarChasm

truth itself is every bit as illusory as the mathematics being deconstructed and scorned in the OP. Push the envelope far enough and eventually every molecule, every moment, every thought is psychosis and therefore the very concept of existence is invalid.

I affirm that according to my limited understanding of Gödel, there is no provable absolute truth. As a matter of choice I insist that I never stop looking for it (truth).

In 1900, Hilbert proposed a number of problems. He believed that if this list of problems were solved, then Mathematics could be tied up in a bow and be presented to the world as resting on a formal tidy foundation. Rather than solving one of these problems, Gödel knocked it out of the park:

Employing a diagonal argument, Gödel's incompleteness theorems were the first of several closely related theorems on the limitations of formal systems. They were followed by Tarski's undefinability theorem on the formal undefinability of truth, Church's proof that Hilbert's Entscheidungsproblem is unsolvable, and Turing's theorem that there is no algorithm to solve the halting problem.

(from en.wikipedia.org... )

Please don't go psychotic. Push the envelope hard enough on nearly any system, then it will break. Just because you cannot prove your truth to everyone else, does not mean that it is not true for you.

I hold true, that puppies are cute; and that the periodic reoccurrence of this phenomenon is enough for me to believe that there must be a God of some sort. I believe both of these statements to be absolutely true, but I acknowledge that I can never PROVE either of these assertions to everyone's or anyone's satisfaction. My belief in the validity of these statements is an ACT OF FAITH that I CHOOSE.

Find beauty in the world, and choose to believe in it. But recognize that some people may not agree with your CHOICE, and neither they nor you will be PROVABLY wrong. (the futility of argument)

a reply to: 19Bones79

When I was very young and still believed, deep down it always felt like a selfish notion.

It felt like I was willing to overlook the cruelty of the OT for the sake of feeling like I was looking out for my soul because who in their right mind would want to face the wrath of such a being?

It can change its mind on a whim based on your behavior,...

I think you're looking at this backwards. Looking out for your own soul (that God created) isn't a selfish act, but rebelling against God because you don't understand the past and hold grudges against Him for it, might be. Rejecting God isn't equivalent to getting even, as there will never be such a thing.

It sounds to me like you've changed your mind about God based on perceived behavior, so you're blaming and judging God for the exact same thing you accuse Him of. All past and future "wrath" is due to rebellion, whether it's from humans or other spiritual entities that used their free will to do the same. It really just all boils down to stubborness. You may take personal pride in that, but it won't be worth anything to you in the end. You can hold the belief that none of it is "true", but I think this thread has already proven that manmade theories don't mean squat.

a reply to: TzarChasm

My problem with people who act like they are clever, is their two cents (the average price of a halfway cogent remark) are worthy exactly the same as my two cents. Oh no, there's that fake imaginary math again. When you have turned copper and zinc to gold, which is more imaginary math because you have to believe in atomic numbers and the ability to count protons, that's something I can invest in. When you tell me "there's no pennies, its all in your mind" you have failed to sell me because you haven't proven anything except a fool and their pennies are easily parted. Take my imaginary money and sell me imaginary salvation coupons!

Was your response supposed to be "clever"? LOL

I don't recall this thread saying that all maths and science are imaginary, but that certain truths aren't always tangible or physical for observation.

a reply to: Deetermined

There's no grudge, there's simply amazement and frustration that most adults still hold to the ridiculous notion of the Abrahamic God.


I get it, you believe he's real.

There's no personal pride involved in my opinion of the concept. What frustrates me is this belief that is still responsible for the world being what it is, and that people can't break free from the hold that religion has on them.

And the reason this world is so screwed up, is because people have a God that's in charge of everything and that gives them an excuse to sit back and let things happen.


We could change the world for the better tomorrow if it wasn't for this primitive prevailing attitude.


And no, if your God concept moves outside of the confines of space and time and knows all that has happened and will happen then there is no such thing as free will. You simply haven't experienced his will in totality yet as he is literally watching a movie play out that he scripted down to the very last letter as the book of Revelations indicate.

If there was free will that book wouldn't use coded wording that have had Christians playing guessing games with it since it came out.

Free will means you are able to change the future if you change your behavior in the present because you recognize your results from the past.

But according to the book of Revelations that's not gonna happen,is it?

To go from believer to non-believer, is one of the most difficult experiences you can have if it comes from your own steady realization.



You could've addressed the points from my previous posts but you didn't.

Why is that?


Would you be willing to sacrifice your child if your God so commands it?

Would you turn to him and say NO!

Would you crumble and beg his forgiveness for refusing such a horrible request?


I can admit to the possibility of deism, but I reject the crude caricatures put forth thus far.

a reply to: 19Bones79

We could change the world for the better tomorrow if it wasn't for this primitive prevailing attitude.

That's where you are wrong, my friend. You're never going to overpower the desires of others related to greed and corruption.

And no, if your God concept moves outside of the confines of space and time and knows all that has happened and will happen then there is no such thing as free will. You simply haven't experienced his will in totality yet as he is literally watching a movie play out that he scripted down to the very last letter as the book of Revelations indicate.

This is another area where you lack understanding. Just because God knows what decisions we're going to make before we make them, doesn't mean it was all scripted. Once again, our individual free will never overcome the free will of all the corruptors, which is why Revelation will have to play out and God will have to intervene.

If there was free will that book wouldn't use coded wording that have had Christians playing guessing games with it since it came out.

The coded wording distinguishes between those "who have the Spirit to hear" and those who don't. Once again, only the Spirit of God can convince people of truths and soften their hearts enough to hear. Those who refuse to listen or acknowledge the basics, aren't going to be given the hard truths, as it is a waste of time.

Free will means you are able to change the future if you change your behavior in the present because you recognize your results from the past.

Free will does allow us to change our individual human futures here on earth, but your free will is not allowed to interfere with anyone else's free will. Our free will may not keep us from being killed by someone else's free will, but it does allow us to decide who and where we get to spend our next life in eternity.

a reply to: 19Bones79

You could've addressed the points from my previous posts but you didn't.

Why is that?

Would you be willing to sacrifice your child if your God so commands it?

Would you turn to him and say NO!

Would you crumble and beg his forgiveness for refusing such a horrible request?

If God himself commanded me to do it, I would do it. Based on what God has told us, what is there to fear? This human life is temporary anyway. If following God's commands ensures a life of perfect eternity without the evils, pain, and suffering of this world, why would I resist it?

a reply to: Deetermined

If God himself commanded me to do it, I would do it.

This actually sums it up for me. There's no way I could ever put myself into that category and think of myself as having some deeper awareness or a connection to something holy, but I do appreciate your honesty.


It's just not for me.

Here's a couple of videos from Perry Marshell that goes over Godel's Theorem.




People who are atheist often say prove God exists yet the science, mathematics and physics is unprovable. It's our non-computable understanding and awareness that leads you to the truth and the source of all truth God.