Abrams and Challengers and Leopard IIs ohhhh myyyyy!

a reply to: SrWingCommander

I wonder if the political implications outweigh the military impact of the tanks bound for Ukraine. Of course, the Ukrainian units which operate those tanks will receive a morale boost from the improvements in equipment. But does Germany dispatching tanks to Ukraine a symbolic gesture or representative of a policy shift?

Notable, the timing of the U.S. finally dispatching tanks to Ukraine ensures Germany isn't out on a limb.

a reply to: xpert11

US/EU sending those tanks wont change the outcome of the conflict unfortunately.
100+s wont change much of the conflcit.

Considering the issue of maintenance among other issue with the Abrams.

Abrams can hold uranium shelling.

How Depleted Uranium Rounds Make the M1 Abrams Even Deadlier

But does Germany dispatching tanks to Ukraine a symbolic gesture or representative of a policy shift?

It isn't. Its called political blackmailing.

Its what the US is currently doing to Serbia.

a reply to: JAY1980

This wont be a good look for EU nor Germany going further.

Nazis driving Germany tanks across eastern Europe

The Neo Nazis Azov had being already rebranded with a different battalion.
I am sure it would be nothing like seeing Neo Fascist driving around in German/American made tanks like the leopards.

originally posted by: vNex92
This wont be a good look for EU nor Germany going further.

Why? Besides, the EU has not been part of this decision, so not sure why EU keeps popping up in this discussion. Germany's decision stops them looking like weaklings and twits.

Several NATO countries are now able to donate their Leopard tanks, now that Germany has agreed that they can do so. This is connected with previously made national stipulations on users of German-made tanks getting agreement on their re-sale/re-use.

The US and the UK are also donating tanks and increasing amounts of other matériel.

Judging by the increase in Russian whining, we can see that this move is a worry for them.

Western tanks are not invulnerable (see Turkey's experience with the Leopard), nor is their integration into the Ukrainian inventory going to be easy, but they will provide armoured superiority in the places they are used, and if used correctly. They will enable Ukraine to do things they currently cannot. They can fight at night, for a start.

Russia must be wondering why they never managed to get air superiority and combined arms, but that's a story of corruption and doctrinal backwardness. Air show air force, rather than a "for war" air force. All that Russian cash spent on modernising a military machine that has stayed resolutely unmodernised.

a reply to: vNex92

Concerning Depleted uranium rounds, Russian desperation for propaganda narratives to justify their war in Ukraine will come into play. I expect Russia will play up that issue to their domestic audiences. But such measures look desperate from my standpoint but might play well with audiences in Russia. Moreover, the Ukrainians can employ other types of anti-tank and armour rounds from the related tanks.

Can you explain the logic behind your claim concerning the U.S. blackmailing Germany into sending tanks to Ukraine?

a reply to: SrWingCommander

Training and logistics will be ...... interesting, but they will out drive and out shoot the Russian armor in short order.

we are already there in terms of training and have been for a long while..



the Ukrainians have already been training on the Bovington tank training ground on other vehicles so they are already there and the logistics in terms of training and repair is already in place to cover all the other vehicles that have been donated..

a reply to: paraphi

Western tanks are not invulnerable (see Turkey's experience with the Leopard), nor is their integration into the Ukrainian inventory going to be easy, but they will provide armoured superiority in the places they are used, and if used correctly. They will enable Ukraine to do things they currently cannot. They can fight at night, for a start.

I'm not sure on the difficulty given the variety of vehicles, logistics, repairs and training that has already been delivered across the EU and UK to Ukraine already.. a number of the other systems already thought to be overly difficult have slotted in well and been adapted and in many cases adapted and used in ways not envisaged by military planners as war does that to weapons platforms..

a reply to: Crackalackin


Please. We left mostly MRAPs, Humvee's, and small arms. A few Black Hawks that probably already can't fly due to Maintenace requirements. I didn't agree with it and dang near think Biden should have been impeached over it, but to say that's our "secret" technology is absurd. Most of the stuff left is being phased out for newer equipment anyways.

Leaving Bagram to the Chinese was worse than leaving some small arms and wheeled vehicles.

a reply to: nickyw

Well aware, I have Ukranians training on the Patriot missile 90 miles from me.

a reply to: SrWingCommander

I am something of an amateur student of things military and yea, these tanks are formidable.

That said.......they are less "amored" vehicles with cannons than they are "weapons systems" desigigned to work with a combined forces technique. Combined forces means they are designed to work along with Infantry, the projection of Air Power, Satelite targeting and Drone Surveillance and "Smart" Artillery.

(As an aside, that's precisely where Russia has failed in it's offensive. A successful campaign would have introduced all these elements working together in a coordinated manner and would have included the obliteration of Air Defenses and the "taking" of the Airspace).

Alone, these tanks will do some good, but not their optimum capability. According to news sources, it will take months to train Ukranian crews to unpack, equip and operate these vehicles. And then there's the maintenance problem; they require multiple hours of maintenance after even one campaign deployment. And critical to their successful deployment would be the Ukrainians establishing Air Superiority.

Because of the above, I am not too convinced these weapons systems will tip the balance in Ukraine's favor for very long.

a reply to: TonyS

I am something of a former professional in these areas, and you are right, but the tanks won't be going at it alone.

By May (about the time of the next Russian offensive) the tanks will be integrated into mobile combined arms units. The M-2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle will take the infantry in with the Tanks. The M777 and other systems will provide the artillery, while HIMRS hits the length of the battlefields deep targets. Patriot will defend the Air Space, probably along with newer MiG-29s and F-16s. But up until now this stuff has been introduced incrementally (so they Ukrainians can gain experience in each part of Combined Arms). By May, the last big parts, the Tanks and possibly the jets will have arrived. All manned by the 60,000+ Ukrainians training on these systems in the US and NATO currently.

Ok it won't be the same as if the US or Germans were manning the equipment, and logistics will still be an issue. BUT it will likely impact the war in a BIG way. And all the Russians will really have to throw against it is sheer numbers of poorly trained and equipped troops. Unless they go the NBC option.

a reply to: SrWingCommander

we hear the uk is giving cr2's but there are also more SPGs and more APCs as part of the odffering.. what is missing though is the rotary air wing especially now the UK is retiring its older apaches for the new E variant.. the newer ones are totally us spec while the older ones are uk spec.. now their addition would make a rounded offering compared to now.. its the missing piece in the puzzle.. its not like Ukraine doesn't have brimstones, star streaks or marlets already..


to be fair though I'd rather see the wildcat/martlet combo.. as its rare for the uk to have mean looking bity of kit..

a reply to: SrWingCommander

Good to hear. Hope it works out properly, but it is a heavy and complex lift requiring lots of training.

originally posted by: SrWingCommander
a reply to: Crackalackin


Please. We left mostly MRAPs, Humvee's, and small arms. A few Black Hawks that probably already can't fly due to Maintenace requirements. I didn't agree with it and dang near think Biden should have been impeached over it, but to say that's our "secret" technology is absurd. Most of the stuff left is being phased out for newer equipment anyways.

Leaving Bagram to the Chinese was worse than leaving some small arms and wheeled vehicles.

The armor on an Abrams is pretty secret. Top secret.

originally posted by: matafuchs
Ukraine needs tanks.
EU and US supply tanks from personal stock.
EU and US need to replenish tanks.
MIC in action once again.

It was much nicer when it was....
Abraham Peace Accords.
No Iran Deal.
ISIS gone.
Sohlemani dead.
No new wars.
Visit NK.

But MEAN TWEETS!

originally posted by: Crackalackin

originally posted by: SrWingCommander
a reply to: Crackalackin


Please. We left mostly MRAPs, Humvee's, and small arms. A few Black Hawks that probably already can't fly due to Maintenace requirements. I didn't agree with it and dang near think Biden should have been impeached over it, but to say that's our "secret" technology is absurd. Most of the stuff left is being phased out for newer equipment anyways.

Leaving Bagram to the Chinese was worse than leaving some small arms and wheeled vehicles.

The armor on an Abrams is pretty secret. Top secret.

The main gun computer and optic systems too.

a reply to: Crackalackin

Yes it is. But I have a feeling they aren't getting M-1A2/A3 versions. They will likely be stripped down some. Wouldn't surprise me if they rebuild some original M-1s with the 105mm cannon and first edition Chobham. Same goes with gun/optics/fire control.

And just becuase its top secret doesn't mean the Russians don't already know about it. They got alot of intel in the 80''s from the Walker Spy RIng, among other places.