Site found in Mexico cartel drug cave pushes American habitation back to 30,000 years.

originally posted by: Harte

You catch Jaws.

Harte

Need a bigger hook and boat...lol

a reply to: Xtrozero

To site few examples Salt content in brine for Black olives is 7.0 %, Green Olives 5.0%, Cucumbers 0.5 - 10 .0 %, Tinned Mushroom 2.0 % Generally, Pickled fruits and /or vegetables packed in brine medium shall have the percentage of salt content be sufficient to ensure the proper preservation of the product.

Seawater is 3.5%. Meat tended to be placed with solid salt and not brine but you can do so but it not effective as using solid salt.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I agree, the evidence doesn't support Pacific Ocean crossings before the Polynesians. I was more pointing out that the Polynesians acquired those skills in a relatively short time frame with the skills and techniques being used seemingly fairly accessible for hominids in general.

Neanderthals either used boats or were extremely good swimmers, they had tools. Evidence of us making canoes goes back atleast 9500 years the last time I read.

I wasn't claiming anything merely playing with the theory of sea voyages. A capability of any tool making hominid I would assume. When it comes to reality I'm often reminded to stick with the math and the evidence.

Sometimes people just want to make things fit, things like theories... I know we're not necessarily talking about boat people and forgotten knowledge but that's where some people lead, whereas within our own species it's fairly evident we've invented/discovered things 100% independently of each other many times over.

Hominids have used tools in some form for upto 2.3 million years?

I don't know enough about the Americas and the Clovis theories tbh, I've read about the mastodon finds in Cali years ago and was led to believe it was iffy at best? Then there's this cave with "continued occupation" that doesn't fit the models... Alluding to a lost line of humans? I should read the rest of the thread...

It's worth noting humans tend to be migratory till we farm. I'm not trying to explain the site I don't know enough. Apologies if my post seems all over, I'm on phone and didn't want to cut paste, nice reply though!

originally posted by: RAY1990

It's worth noting humans tend to be migratory till we farm. I'm not trying to explain the site I don't know enough. Apologies if my post seems all over, I'm on phone and didn't want to cut paste, nice reply though!

Well first I wasn't singling you out and was talking to the general crowd here that pushes the 30k to 50k idea. The reason why the Neanderthals died out was because they were not nomads like we were, so yes we traveled like crazy. The thing to remember is that whatever technology, tools, etc we had, then loss, and again repeated 50 times over was all still stone age level stuff for a very long time, so there are a good deal of limitations there.

Our earliest known canoe I think is around 10k and near Netherlands, and it is rather rough...



As far as Polynesians go what is a short period of time to you? I think the ice age 20,000 to 80,000 years ago opened up a lot of land mass as the oceans were 100m lower to make it a rather easy going to get to Australia 70,000 years ago.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I didn't feel singled out and I had the same reasoning for posting... There's a few times I've posted like that, theorising on practicality with the evidence available, considering the cultural and the psychological aspects of things... Sometimes it's seen and someone chimes in with superior knowledge. Sometimes others are thinking along the same lines.

Our earliest known canoe I think is around 10k and near Netherlands, and it is rather rough...

Canoes and boats are extremely rare finds outside of the ocean and burial mounds from what I've always gathered. There's not enough data and all the ancient canoes I know of like the Thames one were clearly used in shallow waters.

As far as Polynesians go what is a short period of time to you? I think the ice age 20,000 to 80,000 years ago opened up a lot of land mass as the oceans were 100m lower to make it a rather easy going to get to Australia 70,000 years ago.

That's a huge period of colonisation, the question would be how long from primitive canoes to develop something that'll affectively move tribes over large bodies of water. To put it bluntly we ain't getting that evidence.

The best we can do is theorise on the psychological aspects of humans and hominids to a lesser extent. How long does it take "non civilized" societies to develop their tools and inventions. Seems to me that yard stick is huge but it holds very finite measurements too.

We've had a few explosions in development, we became "super specialists" after the last ice age. We started making bows around 70,000 years ago... No bows in Australia historically. Knowledge and necessity go hand in hand.

Bow and arrows show us that humans can develop extremely fast. After the last ice age our ability to wage war is recorded in the development of arrow heads.... I've waffled a bit.

As far as Polynesians go what is a short period of time to you?

A few generations to a few hundred, anywhere between 100-1000 years. Archeological data shows we can develop fast even without meeting places or cities.

Will those skills keep developing till you get a ocean fearing people?

Probably not, if we're busy using our tools we hardly need to improve them imho. But then there's a whole lot more to consider in development than nuts and bolts. We've been nomadic and clearly shared our understandings.

originally posted by: RAY1990

Probably not, if we're busy using our tools we hardly need to improve them imho. But then there's a whole lot more to consider in development than nuts and bolts. We've been nomadic and clearly shared our understandings.

My personal theory is that throughout human existence there were people born with high IQs of the genus level and during their lives they could push human technology very quickly within their community as people at that level of 150/160+ range can invent totally new concepts and things out of thin air, that the rest of us normals can not. Smart people can understand what the genus invented, but are not smart enough to also create new concepts that have never before been created.

So take this and splatter them throughout history, and in their own way that could be limited for their era, but they still would make great advancements on what the population they lived in had for their period. These advancement could last past their life or slowly die out to be rediscovered once again by another group with another genus at the wheel. As populations grew and had more contact with others through war and just social interactions it was much easier to share new knowledge, and so the lost arts became less and less. This allowed knowledge in general to just expand very quickly once humans reached that level of population.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I've thought along the same lines for a while and it is a fraction of humanity that propels the tribe so to speak. There's a few theories on what elevates a brain to genius level but maybe that's for another thread, I will say that geniuses are always on the edge discovering in ways almost foreign to most, I suspect a few reasons why they're always mad.

So take this and splatter them throughout history, and in their own way that could be limited for their era, but they still would make great advancements on what the population they lived in had for their period.

Exactly.
How many times we've took great strides we can only speculate although from an archeological perspective we've definitely invented the same thing independently numerous times. Our cities and gathering places changed things and they were used for exploitative reasons... What happens when you start getting a bunch of nutters, I mean geniuses together?

I hear you though I agree it was always a population thing, I won't claim to understand the genetic side of things but it seems to paint a good enough picture of our history, it often lines up with findings in the field.

The trigger for genius... That's the more interesting thing for me and it's something humans have toyed with for a while whichever way you look at it. The inventions of tomorrow have huge implications for us all since we're a tribe, a global village.

Sea voyage? Genius... 2 days later they all drowned. I wonder how many times the geniuses got us all killed in the past. We should use all that wood to move these stones... Genius!